Birmingham away...The facts

hughsies no.1
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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by hughsies no.1 » 23 Dec 2008 09:49

im really fed up with harper haters, at the end of the day rfc play better with him in the team. the boy can do no right in some peoples eyes. he has been such a good servent to this club and the abuse he gets is ridiculous. if marek or cisse gives the ball away a few times you dont get people going on about that do you. imagine if it was harps who got muscled of the ball for phillips goal? you wouldnt hear the end of it.

i thought harps was great on saturday and against norwich where he got victimised again. the thing is now is that it has gone on so long that people dont know how to praise him.

PEOPLE NEED TO GET OVER IT. HARPS IS AN INFLUENTIAL PART OF OUR TEAM AND WE WOULD MISS HIM IF WE DIDNT HAVE HIM!

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by PEARCEY » 23 Dec 2008 10:03

OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.




Best post I have seen on hobnob all year. Well said that man.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by CMRoyal » 23 Dec 2008 10:18

OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.


Yes, I seem to recall us going through this loop when Harper was briefly sub earlier in the season. Not only should that have killed off all "SC's fave" digs, but when he did come on and start doing what Gunnar or Jem weren't doing (closing space, picking up the second ball, etc etc) it threw his value to the team into such sharp relief that it should really have been an end to the debate. He does have the odd off-day, so is of course not above criticism, but it has to be said that much of the criticism does betray a real lack of understanding of his role.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by loyalroyal4life » 23 Dec 2008 10:21

Thomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.



Amen at last someone who talks sense and logic about the whole harper debate!! people bang on about he keeps us ticking etc i do not doubt that he does but like the above poster noted, its mainly through 5 yard passes as opposed to 05/06 when his distribution involved an array of quality passing, surging runs forward and goals from midfield. I will never forget his goal at palace away was 1 of the highlights for me simply because it was a great move that came straight after their goal!!

One thing is for sure, doesnt look like he is getting dropped this season but for us to prosper next season he needs to be dropped IMO!!

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by Sarah Star » 23 Dec 2008 10:22

Royal With Cheese Interesting, if fairly meaningless stats.

I watched the game on the TV and specifically monitored Harper. I didn't play CM in any capacity in my playing days (left back - in the dressing room normally!) and agree that Harper did/does cover a lot of ground. Sometimes it's difficult to see exactly what he's up to and I think that's the nub of the issue. Players like Gerrard/Lampard/Fabrigas not only cover an immense area of field, marshall their team but also act as the hub through which the team can play. This means they naturally get more of the ball/make more passes and score more goals. Harps, clearly isn't that type of player.

This, BTW, does not mean I don't think Harps' contribution is rubbish because he's not Gerrard/Fabrigas/Lampard!

sorry to go off on a tangent, but is Matejovsky our Gerrard/Fabregas/Lampard equivalent? I remember thinking he might be when watching him play for the Czech team, but then I've never ever played football let alone been a CM.


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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by loyalroyal4life » 23 Dec 2008 10:26

Dirk Gently
OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.


Can't argue with a word of that.



TBF this is all very clinical in highlighting the point of the CM some of which i have overlooked. I still think that harper has not been the same player this season and i dont think anyone can argue with that i think (not sure why) this is down to him being made captain.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by papereyes » 23 Dec 2008 10:53

winchester_royal Statistics mean feck all.


It depends on how you use them.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by y26 royal » 23 Dec 2008 11:20

Thomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.


Spot on, the stats are irrelevant, Its the key moment's in the game that decide the outcome.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by Woodcote Royal » 23 Dec 2008 11:29

I've seen the entire game 3 times on TV (very sad, I know!!!) and agree with much of what has been said.

I Agree that Harper had a good game and that his job within the team goes largely unoticed by many observers but that doesn't mean he hasn't enjoyed a lot of favouritism from Coppell, as have the likes of Ingimarrson. At times in his Reading career, James Harper has been dire.

However, I've been delighted to see our manager being a little more ruthless this season which lead to Karacan getting some games.

We shouldn't forget that, for once, we weren't out numbered in midfield and I think this goes a long way to explaining our wins away to the top 2.

When we are man short in the centre Harpers fitness is a huge asset and if teams attempt to match us in a 4-4-2, no one in this division can live with us.


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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by bishbosh92 » 23 Dec 2008 11:33

Those stats mean oxf*rd all!

Cisse has been solid the last four games where as Harps has been Inconsistant so those stats dont prove anything Tbh

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 11:39

y26 royal
Thomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.



Spot on, the stats are irrelevant, Its the key moment's in the game that decide the outcome.


Or the key opposition moments that are prevented from happening by someone quietly doing a very effective job. That was my point in the earlier post in a nutshell

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by facaldaqui » 23 Dec 2008 12:03

Great post, Ollie Kearns. But why on earth would anyone give themselves that username? Just reading it makes me shudder. (My apologies if you are related to him.)

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 12:11

facaldaqui Great post, Ollie Kearns. But why on earth would anyone give themselves that username? Just reading it makes me shudder. (My apologies if you are related to him.)


Don't worry, I'm not related to him. :) He just used to make me laugh my socks off all of those years ago. My funniest memory was of him being put clear down the left wing in front of the main stand. He went to knock the ball forward but trod on it instead. He went sliding 20 yards down the wing face first and the ball shot backwards 30 yards thus turning attack into defence in one fell swoop. Luckily all of the opposition were were on the floor crying with laughter so the attack didn't come to anything.
I was only about 13 then and I've seen many things in football since. But nothing has ever come close to making me laugh as much as that did :D


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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by Vision » 23 Dec 2008 12:13

To be fair he may have been LOLworthy and ungainly but his goalscoring record stands up. Which is more than he did half the time.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 12:16

OLLIE KEARNS
facaldaqui Great post, Ollie Kearns. But why on earth would anyone give themselves that username? Just reading it makes me shudder. (My apologies if you are related to him.)


Don't worry, I'm not related to him. :) He just used to make me laugh my socks off all of those years ago. My funniest memory was of him being put clear down the left wing in front of the main stand. He went to knock the ball forward but trod on it instead. He went sliding 20 yards down the wing face first and the ball shot backwards 30 yards thus turning attack into defence in one fell swoop. Luckily all of the opposition were were on the floor crying with laughter so the attack didn't come to anything.
I was only about 13 then and I've seen many things in football since. But nothing has ever come close to making me laugh as much as that did :D


p.s - Blake and Pattison running into each other when Blake was through for Burnley earlier this year did come close though !

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by londinium » 23 Dec 2008 12:27

bishbosh92 Those stats mean oxf*rd all!

Cisse has been solid the last four games where as Harps has been Inconsistant so those stats dont prove anything Tbh


And you can back your claims up with what?????

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by Archie's penalty » 23 Dec 2008 12:33

OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.


I think we can close the book on the debate with that post right there.

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by Royalee » 23 Dec 2008 12:49

londinium I amfed up with people saying x y and z are crap, gave the ball away, made no contribution or sold him a hospital ball with no facts to back things up. So I watched the game again this evening and for all those idiots out there, mainly Harper haters, these are the facts.

Harper misplaced passes throughout the game 3
Cisse '' '' 3
Doyle '' '' 4

Harper tackled 0
Cisse tackled 3
Doyle tackled 3


Haper fouls conceded 2
Cisse fouls conceded 4
Doyle fouls conceded 1

Peoples impression on the game was that Cisse was immense and that Harper was between ok and shite.

First half Cisse touched the ball 5 times of which twice he game the ball away and once he was tackled
Harper touched the ball 10 times gave the ball away twice too but was not tackled at all.

As for the ball played from Harper to Cisse in the second half that led to the Brum goal, it certianly wasnt a hospital ball Cisse received it easily, shrugged off the first challange with ease and then dithered with it for an age before being tackled/fouled.

As a foot note its strange how you see the game after watching it a second time as I thought Long was fairly poor Saturday and in fact he ran his socks off held the ball up well and got into some great positions.


You watched the game twice and still can't count? Jesus. Did you do maths at school?

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by BR2 » 23 Dec 2008 12:57

Very good post Ollie.
What I find disappointing sometimes on here is that so many posters get pissed at a game and haven't the faintest idea of what is going on-see the dreadful contributions on the Birmingham "Back from the game" thread where it was all about stewards and our fans trying to suss who was there and what was going on in the entertainment area.
You have put much better than I ever could an excellent summary of a midfielder's role.
In the "Back from the game " thread I put forward some stats about Harper/Hunt for that game which may be more relevant than any comparison with Doyle but Cisse wasn't included by the bookie so I couldn't make comparisons between Cisse and Harper.
BTW there are obviously too many clogging ex-full-backs and greedy ex-strikers on here who do not appreciate the artistry and awareness of the midfielder's job. :wink:

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Re: Birmingham away...The facts

by working class hero » 23 Dec 2008 13:09

Perhaps rather than criticising one player and praising another we could concentrate on the TEAM. As a unit we are effective. I reckon that if our 'stars' leave they will look much less like quality without the likes of Harper to make them look great.

The team is the thing. FACT.

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