by hughsies no.1 » 23 Dec 2008 09:49
by PEARCEY » 23 Dec 2008 10:03
OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.
by CMRoyal » 23 Dec 2008 10:18
OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
by loyalroyal4life » 23 Dec 2008 10:21
Thomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.
However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.
For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.
Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.
If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.
The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.
EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.
by Sarah Star » 23 Dec 2008 10:22
Royal With Cheese Interesting, if fairly meaningless stats.
I watched the game on the TV and specifically monitored Harper. I didn't play CM in any capacity in my playing days (left back - in the dressing room normally!) and agree that Harper did/does cover a lot of ground. Sometimes it's difficult to see exactly what he's up to and I think that's the nub of the issue. Players like Gerrard/Lampard/Fabrigas not only cover an immense area of field, marshall their team but also act as the hub through which the team can play. This means they naturally get more of the ball/make more passes and score more goals. Harps, clearly isn't that type of player.
This, BTW, does not mean I don't think Harps' contribution is rubbish because he's not Gerrard/Fabrigas/Lampard!
by loyalroyal4life » 23 Dec 2008 10:26
Dirk GentlyOLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.
Can't argue with a word of that.
by papereyes » 23 Dec 2008 10:53
winchester_royal Statistics mean feck all.
by y26 royal » 23 Dec 2008 11:20
Thomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.
However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.
For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.
Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.
If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.
The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.
EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.
by Woodcote Royal » 23 Dec 2008 11:29
by bishbosh92 » 23 Dec 2008 11:33
by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 11:39
y26 royalThomas L'Heureux Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.
However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.
Spot on, the stats are irrelevant, Its the key moment's in the game that decide the outcome.
by facaldaqui » 23 Dec 2008 12:03
by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 12:11
facaldaqui Great post, Ollie Kearns. But why on earth would anyone give themselves that username? Just reading it makes me shudder. (My apologies if you are related to him.)
by Vision » 23 Dec 2008 12:13
by OLLIE KEARNS » 23 Dec 2008 12:16
OLLIE KEARNSfacaldaqui Great post, Ollie Kearns. But why on earth would anyone give themselves that username? Just reading it makes me shudder. (My apologies if you are related to him.)
Don't worry, I'm not related to him.He just used to make me laugh my socks off all of those years ago. My funniest memory was of him being put clear down the left wing in front of the main stand. He went to knock the ball forward but trod on it instead. He went sliding 20 yards down the wing face first and the ball shot backwards 30 yards thus turning attack into defence in one fell swoop. Luckily all of the opposition were were on the floor crying with laughter so the attack didn't come to anything.
I was only about 13 then and I've seen many things in football since. But nothing has ever come close to making me laugh as much as that did
by londinium » 23 Dec 2008 12:27
bishbosh92 Those stats mean oxf*rd all!
Cisse has been solid the last four games where as Harps has been Inconsistant so those stats dont prove anything Tbh
by Archie's penalty » 23 Dec 2008 12:33
OLLIE KEARNS I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.
by Royalee » 23 Dec 2008 12:49
londinium I amfed up with people saying x y and z are crap, gave the ball away, made no contribution or sold him a hospital ball with no facts to back things up. So I watched the game again this evening and for all those idiots out there, mainly Harper haters, these are the facts.
Harper misplaced passes throughout the game 3
Cisse '' '' 3
Doyle '' '' 4
Harper tackled 0
Cisse tackled 3
Doyle tackled 3
Haper fouls conceded 2
Cisse fouls conceded 4
Doyle fouls conceded 1
Peoples impression on the game was that Cisse was immense and that Harper was between ok and shite.
First half Cisse touched the ball 5 times of which twice he game the ball away and once he was tackled
Harper touched the ball 10 times gave the ball away twice too but was not tackled at all.
As for the ball played from Harper to Cisse in the second half that led to the Brum goal, it certianly wasnt a hospital ball Cisse received it easily, shrugged off the first challange with ease and then dithered with it for an age before being tackled/fouled.
As a foot note its strange how you see the game after watching it a second time as I thought Long was fairly poor Saturday and in fact he ran his socks off held the ball up well and got into some great positions.
by BR2 » 23 Dec 2008 12:57
by working class hero » 23 Dec 2008 13:09
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