Start to the season - a comparison

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by 79Royal » 28 Sep 2009 14:15

Great stats Strap, as always.

Quick question, probably stupid: How come only 83 seasons when we are 138 years old?

World Wars aside, of course. Thanks.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by strap » 28 Sep 2009 14:19

You raise a number of interestng points Wimb, but at present there are more similarities betweem BR and TB2 than with BR and AP. For example, AP stuck with a system the players knew (4-4-2) and only developed it into another (4-5-1) after a considerable time. With BR we have what seems like a different team playing a different formation every game.

Of the rubbish AP inherited from TB2, was it possible to define a settled core? I don't think it was, so really AP wasn't in much of a different position than BR.

I suppose what we are seeing here is something as dramatic as Jack Mansell when he took over from Roy Bentley in 1969. A long time ago even for me, but I recall he changed the entire squad round in little over 12 months, I think retaining only Denis Allen from the squad he inherited. There were certainly rumbles of discontent then, and indeed some pretty embarassing results, (0-1 to Brentwood FFS!), before it all clicked and they went on an 18 match unbeaten run. However, again, Mansell had a system he stuck with, and bought players he knew could play with that system.

It would be fantastic for something similar to happen this year, but on the evidence to date, the BR Big Book of Football (or whatever it's called), is frankly laughable. He needs to keep things simple, (footballers after all are generally pretty simple souls who like certainty and routine), stop making panic changes to formations, starting lineups and substitutions, and instill in the players on the training ground simple roles and responsibilities that they can understand and have the ability to carry out. The World Class nonsense can wait until they can do the simple things well.

Can't wait for tomorrow night - when it all comes together and we wipe Preston off the park! Why is it that before every game I alsways think "This is the one!" where we'll really pull it all together? Clearly I'm a hopeless case.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Wycombe Royal » 28 Sep 2009 14:20

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There have been plenty of articles on the official site about what Rodgers wants to acheive and how he wants to achieve it and that is what he has presented to all the players, including those that have left (remember the article about him presenting it to Doyle??) and those that have joined.


I'll assume by the fact you continue not to tell me what tis great platform is that you are as confused about what he is try to achieve and how he is going about achieving it as he is.

Look the articles are there on the official site - I can't be arsed to find them for you.

Whether or not you you believe in his abilities, the fact remains that he has publicly stated his "strategy" for this club. We may not agree with it, we may think it is a load of bollocks, and it might not be working but that isn't the point I was making.

All I said was that he seems to have a clear strategy on how he wants to progress unlike Bullivant and Burns. I was not, and have not, passed any verdict on whether I agree with it or whether it is working, or even whether I have any idea what it is. All I know is that it is "world class".

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Barry the bird boggler » 28 Sep 2009 14:21

Interestingly, both our previous worst home runs were ended by narrow 1 goal victories over opposition from South Wales... so, when are Swansea City due here?

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by strap » 28 Sep 2009 14:23

79Royal Great stats Strap, as always.

Quick question, probably stupid: How come only 83 seasons when we are 138 years old?

World Wars aside, of course. Thanks.


We only started playing League football in 1920. No League football was played 1939-1945, starting again in 1946.
1920/20 to 1938/39 is 19 seasons
1946/47 to 2009/10 is 64 seasons, hence we are in our 83 season of League football.

I'm trying to track down our lineups during our Southern League and Western League days, but whilst I can find season summaries for individual players, I haven't as yet come across actual team lineups. So any resources would be gratefully received.


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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Barry the bird boggler » 28 Sep 2009 14:35

strap
79Royal Great stats Strap, as always.

Quick question, probably stupid: How come only 83 seasons when we are 138 years old?

World Wars aside, of course. Thanks.


We only started playing League football in 1920. No League football was played 1939-1945, starting again in 1946.
1920/20 to 1938/39 is 19 seasons
1946/47 to 2009/10 is 64 seasons, hence we are in our 83 season of League football.

I'm trying to track down our lineups during our Southern League and Western League days, but whilst I can find season summaries for individual players, I haven't as yet come across actual team lineups. So any resources would be gratefully received.


But then the Southern League at the time was pretty much a 3rd Division in all but name.

And to complete the record, Reading's first league season was 1894/95 and they played 21 successive seasons until the 1st World War eventually called a halt in 1915, there was then one other season before what was the SL became the 3rd Division officially for 1920/21.

Before 1894 it was just a collection of friendlies and cup games each season

So that's a total of 105 league seasons, of which 83 have been affiliated to the FL.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Wimb » 28 Sep 2009 15:08

strap You raise a number of interestng points Wimb, but at present there are more similarities betweem BR and TB2 than with BR and AP. For example, AP stuck with a system the players knew (4-4-2) and only developed it into another (4-5-1) after a considerable time. With BR we have what seems like a different team playing a different formation every game.

Of the rubbish AP inherited from TB2, was it possible to define a settled core? I don't think it was, so really AP wasn't in much of a different position than BR.

I suppose what we are seeing here is something as dramatic as Jack Mansell when he took over from Roy Bentley in 1969. A long time ago even for me, but I recall he changed the entire squad round in little over 12 months, I think retaining only Denis Allen from the squad he inherited. There were certainly rumbles of discontent then, and indeed some pretty embarassing results, (0-1 to Brentwood FFS!), before it all clicked and they went on an 18 match unbeaten run. However, again, Mansell had a system he stuck with, and bought players he knew could play with that system.

It would be fantastic for something similar to happen this year, but on the evidence to date, the BR Big Book of Football (or whatever it's called), is frankly laughable. He needs to keep things simple, (footballers after all are generally pretty simple souls who like certainty and routine), stop making panic changes to formations, starting lineups and substitutions, and instill in the players on the training ground simple roles and responsibilities that they can understand and have the ability to carry out. The World Class nonsense can wait until they can do the simple things well.

Can't wait for tomorrow night - when it all comes together and we wipe Preston off the park! Why is it that before every game I alsways think "This is the one!" where we'll really pull it all together? Clearly I'm a hopeless case.


I agree good sir, and certainly Pardew went about a similar task in a very different way to Rodgers.Again similar to what you were saying I do wonder whether that had more to do with trying to get the most from limited players in so much as it's easier for crap players to perform well in a system they know, as oppossed to BR who is trying to get more out of potentially good players (the youngsters)

However what most on this board now agree is that he needs to keep it simple first, then as Pardew did try and develop something more complicated later on. I think what confuses me the most is that he played a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-3-1) at Barnsley and it worked a treat. So he then decides to play the same strategy but with different players (i.e Rasiak, Howard etc) Why he didn't keep faith with that team when they played the same formation does confuse and frustrate me.

Even more bemusing is how the 4-4-2 Diamond produced the best home display of the season against Cardiff and in the 1st half vs Boro, and then he changes again :|

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by strap » 28 Sep 2009 15:52

Wimb Even more bemusing is how the 4-4-2 Diamond produced the best home display of the season against Cardiff and in the 1st half vs Boro, and then he changes again :|


I missed those games, but was at the Burton game where we were 4-4-2 diamond. Leaving the ground that evening I was really hopeful that that formation might be the answer. The problem with it is that with the likes of Kebe fannying about on the wing, (and this isn't going to become a Kebe is crap rant), the whole diamond shape falls apart. The 2 wider players in teh diamond MUST be able to move effectively across the width of the pitch depending on whether we are attacking or defending. Thise positions need to be filled by intelligent, skilled and above all fit players who can read the play wekk, as to me thay are the key to the system working. I'm afraid Kebe, (or indeed many others I can think of have all the attributes).

In the first half against Burton, Sigurdsson and Henry played the roles as well as any I've seen, but Siggy in particular tired in the second half. Sadly it hasn't really been persevered with.

I do like the look of Sigurdsson, and still feel Henry would have developed far further than he has, had he been given the support and patience that has been heaped on Kebe. Hopefully there's still time for him to come good.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by ElmParker » 28 Sep 2009 16:14

strap RFC history suggests that we are most successful with a settled team playing a stable formation. At present we have neither of these things, so history suggests we are in for a rocky ride this season.


Wonderful stuff as always, Strap.

One minor thing on this point you made. History, I would guess, also suggests we are most successful when we are scoring lots of goals or creating more chances that the opposition or when the crowd are more voluble.

The question is, which factors are causal and which simply correlated? When a team is playing badly and losing, nothing could be more natural than changing the side. And the more you lose, the more likely you are to change things around. Indeed, Rodgers would probably get slaughtered if he put the same sh*te out next week that he did on Saturday (well, certainly by me).

I’m wondering if rotation of players is caused by bad results, rather than is the cause of it. Ultimately, aren't the underlying factors poor squads and/or poor managers? Aren't these really what that cause us to lose games? And isn't frequency of rotation here just a proxy for this?

In other words, is it fair for me to conclude that we’d be in deep sh*t even if Rodgers picked the same team from here till the end of the season?


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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by coyrls » 28 Sep 2009 16:16

Wycombe Royal All I said was that he seems to have a clear strategy on how he wants to progress unlike Bullivant and Burns. I was not, and have not, passed any verdict on whether I agree with it or whether it is working, or even whether I have any idea what it is. All I know is that it is "world class".


I think that's all any of us know because in fact his strategy is not clear; it consists of a lot of management consultant type sound bites that, as is the way with management consultants, look good on Power Point but in fact provide no useful information.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Wycombe Royal » 28 Sep 2009 16:25

coyrls
Wycombe Royal All I said was that he seems to have a clear strategy on how he wants to progress unlike Bullivant and Burns. I was not, and have not, passed any verdict on whether I agree with it or whether it is working, or even whether I have any idea what it is. All I know is that it is "world class".


I think that's all any of us know because in fact his strategy is not clear; it consists of a lot of management consultant type sound bites that, as is the way with management consultants, look good on Power Point but in fact provide no useful information.

Depends on the management consultant........

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by weybridgewanderer » 28 Sep 2009 16:45

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All I said was that he seems to have a clear strategy on how he wants to progress unlike Bullivant and Burns. I was not, and have not, passed any verdict on whether I agree with it or whether it is working, or even whether I have any idea what it is. All I know is that it is "world class".



So why do you think Bullivant and Burns did not have some sort of strategy they were working against? I suspect they did have a good idea where they were going and what they wanted to achieve

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Tails » 28 Sep 2009 16:53

strap
Wimb Even more bemusing is how the 4-4-2 Diamond produced the best home display of the season against Cardiff and in the 1st half vs Boro, and then he changes again :|


I missed those games, but was at the Burton game where we were 4-4-2 diamond. Leaving the ground that evening I was really hopeful that that formation might be the answer. The problem with it is that with the likes of Kebe fannying about on the wing, (and this isn't going to become a Kebe is crap rant), the whole diamond shape falls apart. The 2 wider players in teh diamond MUST be able to move effectively across the width of the pitch depending on whether we are attacking or defending. Thise positions need to be filled by intelligent, skilled and above all fit players who can read the play wekk, as to me thay are the key to the system working. I'm afraid Kebe, (or indeed many others I can think of have all the attributes).

In the first half against Burton, Sigurdsson and Henry played the roles as well as any I've seen, but Siggy in particular tired in the second half. Sadly it hasn't really been persevered with.

I do like the look of Sigurdsson, and still feel Henry would have developed far further than he has, had he been given the support and patience that has been heaped on Kebe. Hopefully there's still time for him to come good.


Top posting here ^ (aside from the typos :wink: )


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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Maguire » 28 Sep 2009 17:16

strap
Wimb Even more bemusing is how the 4-4-2 Diamond produced the best home display of the season against Cardiff and in the 1st half vs Boro, and then he changes again :|


I missed those games, but was at the Burton game where we were 4-4-2 diamond. Leaving the ground that evening I was really hopeful that that formation might be the answer. The problem with it is that with the likes of Kebe fannying about on the wing, (and this isn't going to become a Kebe is crap rant), the whole diamond shape falls apart. The 2 wider players in teh diamond MUST be able to move effectively across the width of the pitch depending on whether we are attacking or defending. Thise positions need to be filled by intelligent, skilled and above all fit players who can read the play wekk, as to me thay are the key to the system working. I'm afraid Kebe, (or indeed many others I can think of have all the attributes).

In the first half against Burton, Sigurdsson and Henry played the roles as well as any I've seen, but Siggy in particular tired in the second half. Sadly it hasn't really been persevered with.

I do like the look of Sigurdsson, and still feel Henry would have developed far further than he has, had he been given the support and patience that has been heaped on Kebe. Hopefully there's still time for him to come good.


He doesn't play Kebe wide in the 4-4-2 diamond though, he plays him wide in the 4-2-3-1 or whatever you want to call it.

In your instances cited about - Cardiff at home and Posh first half - Kebe didn't play. In fact against Cardiff we suffered through lack of width and only when he brought Kebe on to play wide right did the crosses start to come over.

Seperately, I thought Henry was toss against Burton Albion and at the time people on here said "how would you like to be played out of your natural postion?" :!:

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by strap » 28 Sep 2009 18:57

Maguire He doesn't play Kebe wide in the 4-4-2 diamond though, he plays him wide in the 4-2-3-1 or whatever you want to call it.

In your instances cited about - Cardiff at home and Posh first half - Kebe didn't play. In fact against Cardiff we suffered through lack of width and only when he brought Kebe on to play wide right did the crosses start to come over.

Seperately, I thought Henry was toss against Burton Albion and at the time people on here said "how would you like to be played out of your natural postion?" :!:


True. And that's what I mean about the diamond. If the wider midfield players don't/can't get out to the wings when we move from defence to attack, width is lost. It really takes a fit, skillful player to be able to read this situation and then act upon it. Chelsea players cna do it as they are World Class, but at present our players arenlt up to the task.

I suppose the alternative is to ask the full backs to provide the width, overlapping on the outside of the midfield central two, but then again this puts huge pressure on them and the central defenders/holding midfielder.

Blimey this is hard to cover all the angles! Might explain why BR favours 4-5-1, but whilst this provides defensive cover, the attacking options as we have seen, are severely limited.

Have to agree to disagree with you on Henry. I thought he had a good game v Burton, and went on a number of foraging runs that we only last saw from the likes of Sidwell. He certainly has far more all round skill than Kebe, and I still feel the amount of patience given to Kebe is unwarranted, unrewarded, and would have produced better results had it be showered on Henry. Still, Kebe must be being paid next to nothing in wages, so the main criteria for selection in the current regime has been satisified!

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by strap » 28 Sep 2009 19:01

Tails Top posting here ^ (aside from the typos :wink: )


It's these bunches of bananas I have for fingers! Is there an equivalent of Large Print Type in books for keyboards?!

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Ryn » 29 Sep 2009 07:59

Big Strap Banana Hands posts again!

I think BR just needs a 5-3-2 formation to get a Gin Rummy now doesn't he? I'd like to see him give it a go.

In fact I'd just like him to stick with ANY formation to be honest.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Royal With Cheese » 29 Sep 2009 08:19

Excellent thread, so far escaping the team board mongs for the moment.

As regards the "World Class Model", I fear we don't have the players with either the skill, experience or the intelligence to execute. The sooner he wakes up to this, the better.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by Wycombe Royal » 29 Sep 2009 09:20

weybridgewanderer
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All I said was that he seems to have a clear strategy on how he wants to progress unlike Bullivant and Burns. I was not, and have not, passed any verdict on whether I agree with it or whether it is working, or even whether I have any idea what it is. All I know is that it is "world class".



So why do you think Bullivant and Burns did not have some sort of strategy they were working against? I suspect they did have a good idea where they were going and what they wanted to achieve

Burns maybe, but Bullivant was far too clueless to have had any sort of plan. I still remember a match away at West Brom, it was 0-0 and then Sandford got a head injury fairly late in the game. Most managers would have made a substitution at that point but not Bullivant. He decides that Sandford should have it stitched up even though it was late in the game and then West Brom scored whilst we only 10 men on the pitch. The man was utterly clueless.

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Re: Start to the season - a comparison

by andrew1957 » 29 Sep 2009 10:50

strap Well we are now 9 games into a 46 game league season, nigh on 20% of the way through the campaign. So I thought I would update the stats on starts to the season. I’ve added a bit more info, including a look at the number of players utilised by the various managers over the years in the first 9 games as well as the total used each season. In an effort to try to remain consistent, I have ignored players who have only made sub apps, and I have also ignored cup games. This way our record pre-1960, (no subs or LC), can be compared against our modern record.

BR has used 24 different players in the starting 9 league games (30 if you then add the 2 LC games). Only Tommy Burns with 26 in 1998/99 beats the League record.



Thanks for the stats Strap. I agree that psychologically a good start is important but even in the last few seasons under SSC we have had poor runs of results every single season. Maybe we should not read too much into the current poor run as we have survived and (apart from the relegation season) prospered in other seasons where we have had poor runs of results.

Here are some of the recent poor runs.

2008/9 DDLLWDDLWDDLDD - 14 points in 14 games
2007/8 DLLLLLLLL - 1 point in 9 games
2006/7 LLDLLD - 2 points in 6 games
2005/6 DLWWDDD - 9 points in 7 games in our best ever season
2004/5 LDLDDDDLLDDDWL - 10 points in 13 games
2003/4 DLWWLLLDD - 9 points in 9 games

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