Thames Sports Investment

[Ghost Royal]

This myth of "make an initial investment then the club will run itself in the PL" myth is the same one which was given to the Venky brothers at Blackburn when they were introduced to Blackburn by football agent Jerome Anderson, who is also Steve Kean's agent. Jerome Anderson also introduced Thaksin Shinawatra to Manchester City and Chris Samuelson & Boris Zingarevich to Everton in 2004.

So is your fear along the same lines as my fear...that we'll get a small investment to get us up to the premier league, but when the truth hits and the new owners see cash flowing the wrong way (i.e. from them to the club) they'll soon lose interest, funds will dry up, we'll get relegated and do a Norwich/Southampton/Charlton, and be a bounce club from Prem>Champ>L1>Champ etc etc.

A single owner with shed loads of cash might make the occasional crazy splurge to keep things moving/exciting, but an anonymous group of investors (with only a few known named individuals) is far more likely to act like investors (i.e. wanting a return and pulling out when that return doesn't materialise).

That's my biggest fear...TSI will not see a profit after two years in the prem, and we'll end up slipping right down the rankings...our gates will suffer, our academy will suffer, our ability to bring in talent will suffer.

[Red]

[Dare to Dr£am]

This myth of "make an initial investment then the club will run itself in the PL" myth is the same one which was given to the Venky brothers at Blackburn when they were introduced to Blackburn by football agent Jerome Anderson, who is also Steve Kean's agent. Jerome Anderson also introduced Thaksin Shinawatra to Manchester City and Chris Samuelson & Boris Zingarevich to Everton in 2004.

So is your fear along the same lines as my fear...that we'll get a small investment to get us up to the premier league, but when the truth hits and the new owners see cash flowing the wrong way (i.e. from them to the club) they'll soon lose interest, funds will dry up, we'll get relegated and do a Norwich/Southampton/Charlton, and be a bounce club from Prem>Champ>L1>Champ etc etc.

Which is still better than 3 weeks ago. If it goes wrong then that would do nicely.

[who are ya?]

and be a bounce club from Prem>Champ>L1>Champ etc etc.

IN!

[Extended-Phenotype]

hes never been afraid to drop people, whenever hes felt it was needed

What does that even mean? Under that fluffy convention he could never change the team and still qualify.

I think he’s sometimes over loyal. Church could take a shit in his tracksuit and still get more opportunity than new boy ALF.

On top of that, Kebe, Jobi, Jem and Legs have all had a run of dubious performances without retribution, despite at one point HRK giving our resident wingers a lesson every time he stepped onto the pitch as a sub.

IMO HRK’s quality took a nosedive while wondering what the F he had to do to get a start. Break Jobi or Kebe’s legs, presumably.

It’s not a massive deal, but sometimes I wish McD would loosen up a touch.

[Snowball]

Next big hurdle is McD himself. I appreciate our current safe setup has the points tap on a slow but steady drip, but will he have the hairybrain to tweak the team into a more creative force?

A slow but steady drip?

The MOST points in the league over the last 22 Games @ 1.86 per game, (85-86 point season) normally enough for second.
The MOST points in the league over the last 11 Games @ 2.18 per game, a 100 point season

Going from 1.00 ppg in the first 6 games to 1.54 and now 2.18 is extremely good

1-1-4 04 Points 1.00 ppg (a relegation Season
4-5-2 17 Points 1.54 ppg (a 71-Point Season)
8-0-3 24 Points 2.18 ppg (100 Point Season

[melonhead]

hes never been afraid to drop people, whenever hes felt it was needed

What does that even mean? Under that fluffy convention he could never change the team and still qualify.

I think he’s sometimes over loyal. Church could take a shit in his tracksuit and still get more opportunity than new boy ALF.

On top of that, Kebe, Jobi, Jem and Legs have all had a run of dubious performances without retribution, despite at one point HRK giving our resident wingers a lesson every time he stepped onto the pitch as a sub.

IMO HRK’s quality took a nosedive while wondering what the F he had to do to get a start. Break Jobi or Kebe’s legs, presumably.

It’s not a massive deal, but sometimes I wish McD would loosen up a touch.

#it means exactly what it says you donut- in direct response to the point that he is afraid to drop people


th epoint is hes dropped church. often. just not as often as you think he should have
hes dropped plenty of the teams big players, when he deems it right to do so.


just cos someone has an off day or two doesnt mean you should drop them, especially if you believe th eother options to be worse than option A on his bad day

and id take his assessment over yours any day-

[Vision]

This myth of "make an initial investment then the club will run itself in the PL" myth is the same one which was given to the Venky brothers at Blackburn when they were introduced to Blackburn by football agent Jerome Anderson, who is also Steve Kean's agent. Jerome Anderson also introduced Thaksin Shinawatra to Manchester City and Chris Samuelson & Boris Zingarevich to Everton in 2004.

So is your fear along the same lines as my fear...that we'll get a small investment to get us up to the premier league, but when the truth hits and the new owners see cash flowing the wrong way (i.e. from them to the club) they'll soon lose interest, funds will dry up, we'll get relegated and do a Norwich/Southampton/Charlton, and be a bounce club from Prem>Champ>L1>Champ etc etc.

A single owner with shed loads of cash might make the occasional crazy splurge to keep things moving/exciting, but an anonymous group of investors (with only a few known named individuals) is far more likely to act like investors (i.e. wanting a return and pulling out when that return doesn't materialise).

That's my biggest fear...TSI will not see a profit after two years in the prem, and we'll end up slipping right down the rankings...our gates will suffer, our academy will suffer, our ability to bring in talent will suffer.

I get the concerns but there are a couple of reasons why I'm not slitting my wrists just yet.

Usually these type of deals (where investors are looking to come in and make a profit over a short period of time) are done at a really knock-down price for clubs that are on their uppers now but have some sort of historical background in the top-flight or might be considered a sleeping giant of sorts. If you saw that Dispatches program last year that was exactly the model that was being sold. Sheff Utd being the example used there. We don't really fit that bill though. Financially we're pretty stable and althgough we don't know the full details and the price is probably a bit lower than it would have been in the Premiership they (TSI) are still paying a substantial amount. We really don't quite fit the bill for a quick invest a bit then sell on ASAP scenario.

Also we're a long term work in progress. We have the infrastruture in place to expand in time and the groundwork which has been done with the academy is precisely what other clubs have only recently started to pick up on. Other than the fact that we're currently on the fringes of the play-offs and therefore in with a shout of promotion to the Premier league for next season nothing about us screams short term cut and run philosophy.

Time will tell of course and if/when the deal goes through we'll hopefully find out a bit more about hwo they're going to go about it.

My gut feeling though is that they are in for the relatively long haul.

[Royal Lady]

I share Dirk's cautiousness in all of this I'm afraid. I think we could be in for a bit of a bumpy ride over the next 2 or 3 years - maybe sooner if they don't even sign the agreement.

I asked pages back, why would anyone want to buy a football club at this present time - and other than it's his "hobby" and he wants a bit of kudos and that's exactly the same reasons people gave when SJM bought the club. SJM gets into financial difficulties elsewhere and wants to sell up - prior to that, he was prudent and didn't put an awful lot of money in - preferring to let the club finance itself as far as possible. What if Anton's other businesses go tits up? How do we, as a club, repay what he's put in without suffering big time and possibly never recovering.

[Archie's penalty]

This myth of "make an initial investment then the club will run itself in the PL" myth is the same one which was given to the Venky brothers at Blackburn when they were introduced to Blackburn by football agent Jerome Anderson, who is also Steve Kean's agent. Jerome Anderson also introduced Thaksin Shinawatra to Manchester City and Chris Samuelson & Boris Zingarevich to Everton in 2004.

So is your fear along the same lines as my fear...that we'll get a small investment to get us up to the premier league, but when the truth hits and the new owners see cash flowing the wrong way (i.e. from them to the club) they'll soon lose interest, funds will dry up, we'll get relegated and do a Norwich/Southampton/Charlton, and be a bounce club from Prem>Champ>L1>Champ etc etc.

A single owner with shed loads of cash might make the occasional crazy splurge to keep things moving/exciting, but an anonymous group of investors (with only a few known named individuals) is far more likely to act like investors (i.e. wanting a return and pulling out when that return doesn't materialise).

That's my biggest fear...TSI will not see a profit after two years in the prem, and we'll end up slipping right down the rankings...our gates will suffer, our academy will suffer, our ability to bring in talent will suffer.

I get the concerns but there are a couple of reasons why I'm not slitting my wrists just yet.

Usually these type of deals (where investors are looking to come in and make a profit over a short period of time) are done at a really knock-down price for clubs that are on their uppers now but have some sort of historical background in the top-flight or might be considered a sleeping giant of sorts. If you saw that Dispatches program last year that was exactly the model that was being sold. Sheff Utd being the example used there. We don't really fit that bill though. Financially we're pretty stable and althgough we don't know the full details and the price is probably a bit lower than it would have been in the Premiership they (TSI) are still paying a substantial amount. We really don't quite fit the bill for a quick invest a bit then sell on ASAP scenario.

Also we're a long term work in progress. We have the infrastruture in place to expand in time and the groundwork which has been done with the academy is precisely what other clubs have only recently started to pick up on. Other than the fact that we're currently on the fringes of the play-offs and therefore in with a shout of promotion to the Premier league for next season nothing about us screams short term cut and run philosophy.

Time will tell of course and if/when the deal goes through we'll hopefully find out a bit more about hwo they're going to go about it.

My gut feeling though is that they are in for the relatively long haul.

Here's hoping!

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

If they get it right there is a lot of future for RFC to advance to in The Prem.

Why not buy a nother club and move it up, who else would anyone buy for the same money?

With the same facilities, income potential and recent good history.

Coventry? Poor fan base, expensive to buy due to stadium too big.

Leicester, already bought, expensive stadium again.

S'ton, same a s above.

Any London Team, already 4 well supported teams there, not really a lot of potential in the rest, as they are finding out at QPR, 18-500 capacity, average 16900 ish.

Cardiff recently new owners I believe,

Best other chance would have been Bristol C, but new stadium miles away still.

ANy Northern Prem team, Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton, years in the Prem but are they that well know Worldwide, most do not sell out or improve attendances, whereas RFC have done well over the last 20 years of doing just that.

[Hoop Blah]

So, Dirk - are you happy with this takeover or not?

I don't know enough about it - or the people behind it - to make an informed judgement. I don't think anyone does.

I do know that a lot of what we've been told so far flatly contradicts much of what else what we've been told, and that the "business plan" (in the loosest sense of the words) presented does not add up and cannot possibly be delivered.

I can also put you in touch with a man round the corner who'll happily sell you Tower Bridge - really cheap! A great deal, you'll love it and you'll make so much money on it.

I do sympathise/agree with (to an extent) the fears and scepticism but I'm interested in what you've seen of a business plan Dirk.

From what I've heard and read it sounds like they're going into it willingly to cover the losses we make and to run it relatively sensibly but to fund it it much the same way as Madejski used to before he ran out of money.

I think you posted somewhere that by 'not having to sell out players' it means paying silly money and racking up massive losses. I'm not sure I subscribe to that idea. Yes we'll be making operating losses but I don't think we'll be having to match every offer going and paying silly money.

The silly money is only really from a few select clubs. It might mean we'd have lost Mills but possibly not the likes of Long or Sigurdsson recently. You won't ever stop players wanting to move for various reasons but the implication I've taken from the comments in the public domain is that we won't be actively looking to get rid of them for the transfer fee's to cover the black-holes. For example, we'd have tried to get Long to stay (for whatever reasons) and put up some fight instead of patting him on the back and encouraging him to go to the highest bidder.

[melonhead]

I share Dirk's cautiousness in all of this I'm afraid. I think we could be in for a bit of a bumpy ride over the next 2 or 3 years - maybe sooner if they don't even sign the agreement.

I asked pages back, why would anyone want to buy a football club at this present time - and other than it's his "hobby" and he wants a bit of kudos and that's exactly the same reasons people gave when SJM bought the club. SJM gets into financial difficulties elsewhere and wants to sell up - prior to that, he was prudent and didn't put an awful lot of money in - preferring to let the club finance itself as far as possible. What if Anton's other businesses go tits up? How do we, as a club, repay what he's put in without suffering big time and possibly never recovering.

surely he either just wants a toy, and profile/kudos, or he thinks that by taking the club to the prem, extending the stadium he can get a return/profit on his(and or his investors) money.

im happy if its all above board, and the money is there, and i wont be if its not
lets wait and see.
i would have preferred JM to have a bit more cash to carry on running us as he always did before we went up though either way.

in this scenario my ideal prospect is that anton intends to do exactly that. inject enough money that we can be competetive, and keep our best players longer than we previously could, but not go mental.
if sig and long had stayed one more season each wed probably be up already, and then theyd be happy to stay another couple of years, without breaking the bank to pay them. if anton can fund us to do exactly that, thats got to be good.

itll all come out in the wash. if there is no money, he wont be buying the club, and all this will seem a little silly
but if he didnt have the money why would he even try.


i think its fine for people to both get excited,and remain cautious/worried
at least while we are in this limbo stage where we dont really know the score.

[Extended-Phenotype]

hes never been afraid to drop people, whenever hes felt it was needed

What does that even mean? Under that fluffy convention he could never change the team and still qualify.

I think he’s sometimes over loyal. Church could take a shit in his tracksuit and still get more opportunity than new boy ALF.

On top of that, Kebe, Jobi, Jem and Legs have all had a run of dubious performances without retribution, despite at one point HRK giving our resident wingers a lesson every time he stepped onto the pitch as a sub.

IMO HRK’s quality took a nosedive while wondering what the F he had to do to get a start. Break Jobi or Kebe’s legs, presumably.

It’s not a massive deal, but sometimes I wish McD would loosen up a touch.

#it means exactly what it says you donut- in direct response to the point that he is afraid to drop people


th epoint is hes dropped church. often. just not as often as you think he should have
hes dropped plenty of the teams big players, when he deems it right to do so.


just cos someone has an off day or two doesnt mean you should drop them, especially if you believe th eother options to be worse than option A on his bad day

and id take his assessment over yours any day-

1. It’s just a strange statement. Of course he drops people when he’s felt it was needed. Why would he drop people when he doesn’t think it’s needed?

2. I agree, dropping players after one or two bad games is crazy. Not really relevant to what I was saying though.

3. My point about Church was that he has been given more opportunity than ALF despite, in my opinion, not playing as well.

4. I don’t think HRK at that time, appeared a worse option than Jobi or Kebe during their run of poor form.

5. Sigh, yes – McD is a better manager than me yada yada yada. But you don’t think manager decisions can be critiqued by fans with any value?

Like I said, it ain't a massive deal - but based on my assessment of Brian, and the fact that, even though improvement could be made our team is relatively steady, I sadly don’t expect Cywka to step into the side any time soon.

[Royal Rother]

I share Dirk's cautiousness in all of this I'm afraid. I think we could be in for a bit of a bumpy ride over the next 2 or 3 years - maybe sooner if they don't even sign the agreement.

I asked pages back, why would anyone want to buy a football club at this present time - and other than it's his "hobby" and he wants a bit of kudos and that's exactly the same reasons people gave when SJM bought the club. SJM gets into financial difficulties elsewhere and wants to sell up - prior to that, he was prudent and didn't put an awful lot of money in - preferring to let the club finance itself as far as possible. What if Anton's other businesses go tits up? How do we, as a club, repay what he's put in without suffering big time and possibly never recovering.

if sig and long had stayed one more season each wed probably be up already, and then theyd be happy to stay another couple of years, without breaking the bank to pay them. if anton can fund us to do exactly that, thats got to be good.

Catching up on the recent posts Melonhead's comment is EXACTLY what I was going to say.

A bit more muscle is what we've got. And, we've seemingly got deeper pockets as well so that enables one or two of those when-the-time-is-right small gambles people have been clamouring for since before we got relegated. ("If only we'd spent a few million on Cahill we'd definitely have stayed up...")

Well, now we can.

Without going crazy AZ can afford to take a bit more of a flier than SJM could, but the really important part of this (to my ears) was when SJM said that the club would now be able to invest more in the academy to further improve the facilities and coaching. THAT'S where we are already a step or 2 ahead of most of the competition, and to look to maintain / increase that advantage whilst other clubs will probably have to trim costs because they haven't been run as prudently in the past, is BRILLIANT news.

[under the tin]

i would have preferred JM to have a bit more cash to carry on running us as he always did before we went up

I can't see even the most rabid of the historical wrist slitters on here disagreeing with that sentiment.
Fact is though, that JM is no longer willing/able to run the club that way.
The cloth cutting regime that has followed as a consequence has resulted in the sale of star players in an attempt to cover the "black hole".
The problem is that the "black hole" is an ongoing problem, and all that these sales are doing is sticking a band aid on a bloody great big laceration. (And we all know that laceration is footballer wages)

In spite of the wonders that BMcD has performed with limited funds (Cup runs, Playoffs, our lofty position in the table), the club is still not being converted into a money making, or even a break even operation. Our current business model is not working.

Now it's all very well to speculate that johnny foreigner might leave the club in administration some years down the line.
It is equally valid to surmise that if things stay the same, the club could wind up in exactly the same place.

[Royal Rother]

I beg to differ - the current business model might not be ideal but it IS working.

Investment in the Academy has meant that we can make a trading loss but cover that by selling young home grown produce.

Indications are that, far from that potentially drying up, it is actually accelerating with several worth millions+ already in the 1st team and (no guarantees of course) many more teenagers of great promise waiting in the wings.

[Hoop Blah]

In spite of the wonders that BMcD has performed with limited funds (Cup runs, Playoffs, our lofty position in the table), the club is still not being converted into a money making, or even a break even operation. Our current business model is not working.

The business model, and McDermotts managing of the side are working reasonably well, but can obviously work better.

Just to pick up on that limited funds comment, because it bugs me a bit, since he'd taken over we've had one of the highest wage bills in the division. We haven't spent the money that one or two clubs have on transfer fee's no, and we've had to sell some of our better players (as have the likes of Cardiff, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Palace, Millwall, Southampton and everyone else), but we've spent more than a lot of clubs too.

I'm not saying McDermott hasn't done a good job, because he has, but to say he's had limited resources in this division is a bit misleading.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

I beg to differ - the current business model might not be ideal but it IS working.

Investment in the Academy has meant that we can make a trading loss but cover that by selling young home grown produce.

Indications are that, far from that potentially drying up, it is actually accelerating with several worth millions+ already in the 1st team and (no guarantees of course) many more teenagers of great promise waiting in the wings.

The trouble is that there is no way to ensure that we can keep selling the youngsters to fill any deficit. What is needed is more income, or less expenditure, preferably the former, as it has been said many a time less income means players of lower quality in the team.

[melonhead]

What does that even mean? Under that fluffy convention he could never change the team and still qualify.

I think he’s sometimes over loyal. Church could take a shit in his tracksuit and still get more opportunity than new boy ALF.

On top of that, Kebe, Jobi, Jem and Legs have all had a run of dubious performances without retribution, despite at one point HRK giving our resident wingers a lesson every time he stepped onto the pitch as a sub.

IMO HRK’s quality took a nosedive while wondering what the F he had to do to get a start. Break Jobi or Kebe’s legs, presumably.

It’s not a massive deal, but sometimes I wish McD would loosen up a touch.

#it means exactly what it says you donut- in direct response to the point that he is afraid to drop people


th epoint is hes dropped church. often. just not as often as you think he should have
hes dropped plenty of the teams big players, when he deems it right to do so.


just cos someone has an off day or two doesnt mean you should drop them, especially if you believe th eother options to be worse than option A on his bad day

and id take his assessment over yours any day-

1. It’s just a strange statement. Of course he drops people when he’s felt it was needed. Why would he drop people when he doesn’t think it’s needed?

2. I agree, dropping players after one or two bad games is crazy. Not really relevant to what I was saying though.

3. My point about Church was that he has been given more opportunity than ALF despite, in my opinion, not playing as well.

4. I don’t think HRK at that time, appeared a worse option than Jobi or Kebe during their run of poor form.

5. Sigh, yes – McD is a better manager than me yada yada yada. But you don’t think manager decisions can be critiqued by fans with any value?

Like I said, it ain't a massive deal - but based on my assessment of Brian, and the fact that, even though improvement could be made our team is relatively steady, I sadly don’t expect Cywka to step into the side any time soon.

1. its a direct response to the point made that hes too scared to drop players. so i think its a pretty fine pont to make
2. you advocate dropping them as "retribution" after a couple of poor games-i dont, nor does brian & see point 4,
3. i agree totaly- McD doesnt. but hes not "scared" to drop him- he has done that plenty of times- he just believes he is better than you think
4.HRK has hardly ever had a decent game where hes played the whole thing rather than as sub, great prospect,really like him
but its natural to trust playes who have proven themselves to you time and again
5.yes, yes he is. and yes they can do what they like. i just give more credence to his feelings on the matter than theirs, or mine

cwfka played on saturday, roberts stepped right in
dont really get your point