Match Thread U21 v LIVERPOOL on Sky 429

[andrew1957]

Only watched the first half as I had to go out, but was very impressed. I really like Kuhl, Tanner and Tish, but most of them looked comfortable on the ball and there were no real weak links.

What is most impressive is that at the start of this season this group looked overwhelmed and results were poor (understandable as most are just 18/19), but they have got better and better as the season has gone on and if they can win 4 of their last 6 league games they should finish top half and be amongst the elite group next season, which will be a huge achievement. And in the cup semi final too.

Next season will be even more exciting as the Under 18 players (Fosu, Kelly, Hyam, Dickie, Fridjonnson etc) that will be stepping up (in addition to the Under 18's like Kuhl and Stacey that are already in the under 21's) will strengthen this group a lot.

I am looking forward to the Under 18 QF next week. Definitely in for that - they were superb against Accrington. No doubt Kuhl and Stacey will also play and we will have a strong side out.

[Ian Royal]

Excellent performance and fully deserved win. Very impressive, particularly Hector, Tanner and Kuhl. Hearterning stuff.

One downside was the poor goal we gave away which we almost replicated in the second half only to be saved by a goalpost. Our coaching staff should be telling our young players not to be over-playing on the edge of their 18 yard box!

theyre telling them totally the opposite though

At tho age they certainly should not be told to 'stop overplaying on the edge of the box'! It's that mentality that held (is still holding) England back.

Agree, get them used to it and the associated dangers now, so they can do it properly by the time they break into the first team. Teach them to kick it up in the youth and they'll have a far harder time getting the hang of playing out from the back later. Whereas it's easy to revert to just kicking it up.

[melonhead]

Excellent performance and fully deserved win. Very impressive, particularly Hector, Tanner and Kuhl. Hearterning stuff.

One downside was the poor goal we gave away which we almost replicated in the second half only to be saved by a goalpost. Our coaching staff should be telling our young players not to be over-playing on the edge of their 18 yard box!

theyre telling them totally the opposite though

At tho age they certainly should not be told to 'stop overplaying on the edge of the box'! It's that mentality that held (is still holding) England back.

agreed. im saying that floyd is wrong

[PistolPete]

Yep - I know, I'm backing you up

[sandman]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

[Ian Royal]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Sandman



The Point

They're U21s learning the game. This is exactly the time the should be learning when it's overplaying and when it isn't and you do that by doing it and learning from you successes and mistakes.

[P!ssed Off]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

Don't think Ian Royal's going to listen to you.
But of course you are indeed correct.

"They're young and learning" is not a great excuse. The U21 team has been prone to causally losing the ball at the back almost every time I've watched them this season.
It really does not appear that they are learning from their mistakes.


tbh the defence has consistently looked the weakest area of our youth teams.
I'm undecided if it's the risky tactics making the defence look bad, or the defence making the tactics look bad.

[glass half full]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Sandman



The Point

They're U21s learning the game. This is exactly the time the should be learning when it's overplaying and when it isn't and you do that by doing it and learning from you successes and mistakes.

+ 1

[PistolPete]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Sandman



The Point

They're U21s learning the game. This is exactly the time the should be learning when it's overplaying and when it isn't and you do that by doing it and learning from you successes and mistakes.

+ 1

Overplaying is a dumb phrase because overplaying in itself states that it resulted in a mistake. It only becomes over-playing when the payer is not good enough to do it. Its a bit like saying the players must learn when not to over hit the pass or over hit the cross. You don't get good at these things without pushing the boundaries - under your instructions they'd only learn when NOT to play at the back. I disagree, they must learn how BETTER to play at the back, not when not to. They can learn when not to when playing for the first team and giving the ball away means points dropped and becoming a scapegoat on HNA?

[Ian Royal]

Sandman and PO criticising the youth teams 'overplaying' it at the back shows exactly the sort of attitude that holds English football back - risk averse and totally focused on the result rather than the learning process, which is what youth football must be all about.

When all's said and done the results in youth football are utterly meaningless, so as Pete says, push the boundaries learn what you can and can't do and improve it. You only do that by trying to go beyond yourself and that often means making a mistake.

Follow the safe approach and you get a bunch of defenders who are uncomfortable on the ball and resort to hopeful hoofs up the pitch rather than playing around the opposition to create space and opportunities through the team.

Occasionally, even at the top level with the best players, it will result in conceding a foolish goal. But the benefits from it, if you're good at it, will far exceed that negative aspect of it. And if you aren't good at it, the chances of persisting with it at senior level are pretty slim so it isn't an issue.

[TheLawnMowerMan]

These days many elite sports talk of removing the fear of failure from participants minds - freeing them up to perform at their highest level without worrying about the consequences.

Saying that U-21s are over-playing in an U-21 match is missing the whole point of having competitive games at this level in the first place.
Yes, winning is great, but competing and learning is the main point. Making mistakes is a great way of learning as long as you are given the freedom to makes mistakes and learn from them without all the negatives that are a relic of old fashioned coaching methods.

[P!ssed Off]

Sandman and PO criticising the youth teams 'overplaying' it at the back shows exactly the sort of attitude that holds English football back - risk averse and totally focused on the result rather than the learning process, which is what youth football must be all about.

When all's said and done the results in youth football are utterly meaningless, so as Pete says, push the boundaries learn what you can and can't do and improve it. You only do that by trying to go beyond yourself and that often means making a mistake.

Follow the safe approach and you get a bunch of defenders who are uncomfortable on the ball and resort to hopeful hoofs up the pitch rather than playing around the opposition to create space and opportunities through the team.

Occasionally, even at the top level with the best players, it will result in conceding a foolish goal. But the benefits from it, if you're good at it, will far exceed that negative aspect of it. And if you aren't good at it, the chances of persisting with it at senior level are pretty slim so it isn't an issue.

Sorry, but the U21s team this season has proved that the age of 18/19/20 is too late an age to turn a defender with no tekkers into a defender with unbelievable tekkers.
I was there at the 1st U21 league game of the season in early August and their playing it out of the back was leading to numerous clear cut chances for the opposition.

7 months later... Very little progress.
How long do you go before you give up with your "Keep trying until you can do it" approach.

Jake Cooper, a player who had a trial with Man Utd and has been involved with England, looks utterly shit due to our tactics.
I doubt Alex Pearce would have got anywhere near the 1st team if he'd been made to look a fool in the U21s each week.

Results in youth football are only utterly meaningless if 3/4 of the goals come through mistakes at the back, rather than actual good play.

Ian Royal & co. have got their blinkers on again, just as they did in regards to the 1st team earlier in the season.
So focused on the future "they'll be amazing at x eventually" that you not only brush off the fact that they are rubbish at doing x in the present, but you've failed to even consider that they've shown little to no progress in the considerable amount of time since they started.

[P!ssed Off]

These days many elite sports talk of removing the fear of failure from participants minds - freeing them up to perform at their highest level without worrying about the consequences.

Saying that U-21s are over-playing in an U-21 match is missing the whole point of having competitive games at this level in the first place.
Yes, winning is great, but competing and learning is the main point. Making mistakes is a great way of learning as long as you are given the freedom to makes mistakes and learn from them without all the negatives that are a relic of old fashioned coaching methods.

Yes, I'm suggesting that they are not learning.

[winchester_royal]

I think a significant part of a defender's development is about learning when is the right time to pass it out, and when a safety first approach is best suited. Knowing the distinction is an important skill, and one that you'd hope he coaching staff are trying to teach the younger defenders. Thus while I agree in principle with the majority of the IR argument, that yes it is important that these defenders become comfortable with the ball at their feet otherwise they won't reach the very top, I don't agree with the idea that they should be playing it out regardless of the situation they find themselves in. Sometimes the right option will be the hit it long, and not only do the defenders need to be able to recognise that, but the strikers/midfielders also need to be able to learn how to offer themselves as an out-ball in these situations.

[TheLawnMowerMan]

Yes, I'm suggesting that they are not learning.

I think the coaching staff are well qualified to point out the lessons in the days after the game.
If they don't learn eventually then they will inevitably be released. Such is the way of professional football.
I don't expect all of that team to make it to the first team (2 or 3 would be a great result), but I am pleased that there is so much potential at the moment.

[PistolPete]

Sandman and PO criticising the youth teams 'overplaying' it at the back shows exactly the sort of attitude that holds English football back - risk averse and totally focused on the result rather than the learning process, which is what youth football must be all about.

When all's said and done the results in youth football are utterly meaningless, so as Pete says, push the boundaries learn what you can and can't do and improve it. You only do that by trying to go beyond yourself and that often means making a mistake.

Follow the safe approach and you get a bunch of defenders who are uncomfortable on the ball and resort to hopeful hoofs up the pitch rather than playing around the opposition to create space and opportunities through the team.

Occasionally, even at the top level with the best players, it will result in conceding a foolish goal. But the benefits from it, if you're good at it, will far exceed that negative aspect of it. And if you aren't good at it, the chances of persisting with it at senior level are pretty slim so it isn't an issue.

Sorry, but the U21s team this season has proved that the age of 18/19/20 is too late an age to turn a defender with no tekkers into a defender with unbelievable tekkers.
I was there at the 1st U21 league game of the season in early August and their playing it out of the back was leading to numerous clear cut chances for the opposition.

7 months later... Very little progress.
How long do you go before you give up with your "Keep trying until you can do it" approach.

Jake Cooper, a player who had a trial with Man Utd and has been involved with England, looks utterly shit due to our tactics.
I doubt Alex Pearce would have got anywhere near the 1st team if he'd been made to look a fool in the U21s each week.

Results in youth football are only utterly meaningless if 3/4 of the goals come through mistakes at the back, rather than actual good play.

Ian Royal & co. have got their blinkers on again, just as they did in regards to the 1st team earlier in the season.
So focused on the future "they'll be amazing at x eventually" that you not only brush off the fact that they are rubbish at doing x in the present, but you've failed to even consider that they've shown little to no progress in the considerable amount of time since they started.

It's weird, because last I knew most people said the team had progressed well, was playing good football and had just beaten Liverpool at Anfield?

[melonhead]

There's playing it around at the back and there is overplaying. Last night, especially in the early stages of the second half, they overplayed.

Don't think Ian Royal's going to listen to you.
But of course you are indeed correct.

"They're young and learning" is not a great excuse. The U21 team has been prone to causally losing the ball at the back almost every time I've watched them this season.
It really does not appear that they are learning from their mistakes.


tbh the defence has consistently looked the weakest area of our youth teams.
I'm undecided if it's the risky tactics making the defence look bad, or the defence making the tactics look bad.

i think that s probably the case for all youth teams, with defence being the one area of the game where organisation and positioning is vital, much more than in midfield or up front.
takes much longer to get to grips with, whereas in the other departments you can just get by on your natural ability etc

[floyd__streete]

it is important that these defenders become comfortable with the ball at their feet otherwise they won't reach the very top, I don't agree with the idea that they should be playing it out regardless of the situation they find themselves in. Sometimes the right option will be the hit it long, and not only do the defenders need to be able to recognise that, but the strikers/midfielders also need to be able to learn how to offer themselves as an out-ball in these situations.

100% agreed, WR. You speak more sense than some of the 'OPTA generation' drones on this thread.

[PistolPete]

A quote I kept and like - talking about the failure of Brazils national team a few years ago:

"We have a lot to learn from that," said Brazil national team coach Mano Menezes, who was also struck by another key plank of Barcelona's philosophy of formation.

Mestre made it clear that match results do not matter in youth development. From the youngest age group right the way up to the Barca B side, winning is never the priority.
"We can't live without results, even with our youth sides," said Menezes. The explanation for this is clear - youth coaches are badly paid in Brazil, and are looking to win titles to attract attention and move up to something more lucrative.

This ties in with another major difference identified by Menezes - Barcelona's work is long term. They have a way of playing and a philosophy of play that has been decades in the making. Mestre dated it to the late 1980s when Johann Cruyff took over as coach.
The club have a collective project. Menezes lamented that in Brazil there is no such thing. Projects are individual, depending on the philosophy of the coach. Then he gets sacked and a new direction is sought.