BFTG . Derby

[retro royal]

McShane seems to be up there for mom, strange it was him diving in again that created the space for Ince to shoot and score, did the same for the ipswich goal, concerns me.

[Armadillo Roadkill]

[/quote]I do wonder what fans think or want from refs.

It's not a bleeding pantomime and the ref ain't there to perform for you. Oh yes he is, oh no he ain't.

Assistant saw it as you described, communicated to ref, red card, we move on. What do you want next week, semaphore?[/quote]

Quite. How anyone can think the officials didn't get this one right is beyond me.

As for the rest of the game, I'm always guided in my assessment of the officials by the words of Saint Steve - if players made as few mistakes as the officials it would be a completely different game.

[PeterReadingborn59]

It was effectively the lino/assistant ref who sent off Sa. The ref wasn't even looking in the direction of the incident when it happened. I can only assume that his assistant spoke to him over the radio link and said something like 'Head butt by Reading 10". The ref then decided that was good enough to rush over and brandish the red without conferring further with his assistant.

A p*ss poor way of managing the players and the crowd. It would have been far better for everyone had he made a point of going over and conferring with his assistant before dealing with both players at the same time.

Instead the pratt rushed to deal with Sa before eventually wandering back to confer with his assistant, prior to issuing the soft yellow to the Derby cheat.

+1 totally agree, referee showed to be a typical by the book type that exist these days, with no use of experience he should have built-up through the years, to know that such an incident normally takes two who should be treated in a similar fashion, to treat players differently would require additional information from the assistant referee and I doubt if that occurred over the mics - the referee had allowed the Derby player to kick and hold Sa through out the first half without taking any action and an experienced referee would have had a word with both before the incident.

[Nameless]

It was effectively the lino/assistant ref who sent off Sa. The ref wasn't even looking in the direction of the incident when it happened. I can only assume that his assistant spoke to him over the radio link and said something like 'Head butt by Reading 10". The ref then decided that was good enough to rush over and brandish the red without conferring further with his assistant.

A p*ss poor way of managing the players and the crowd. It would have been far better for everyone had he made a point of going over and conferring with his assistant before dealing with both players at the same time.

Instead the pratt rushed to deal with Sa before eventually wandering back to confer with his assistant, prior to issuing the soft yellow to the Derby cheat.

+1 totally agree, referee showed to be a typical by the book type that exist these days, with no use of experience he should have built-up through the years, to know that such an incident normally takes two who should be treated in a similar fashion, to treat players differently would require additional information from the assistant referee and I doubt if that occurred over the mics - the referee had allowed the Derby player to kick and hold Sa through out the first half without taking any action and an experienced referee would have had a word with both before the incident.

You obviously have no idea about refereeing, or indeed basic principles of justice !

[paultheroyal]

It was effectively the lino/assistant ref who sent off Sa. The ref wasn't even looking in the direction of the incident when it happened. I can only assume that his assistant spoke to him over the radio link and said something like 'Head butt by Reading 10". The ref then decided that was good enough to rush over and brandish the red without conferring further with his assistant.

A p*ss poor way of managing the players and the crowd. It would have been far better for everyone had he made a point of going over and conferring with his assistant before dealing with both players at the same time.

Instead the pratt rushed to deal with Sa before eventually wandering back to confer with his assistant, prior to issuing the soft yellow to the Derby cheat.

+1 totally agree, referee showed to be a typical by the book type that exist these days, with no use of experience he should have built-up through the years, to know that such an incident normally takes two who should be treated in a similar fashion, to treat players differently would require additional information from the assistant referee and I doubt if that occurred over the mics - the referee had allowed the Derby player to kick and hold Sa through out the first half without taking any action and an experienced referee would have had a word with both before the incident.

You obviously have no idea about refereeing, or indeed basic principles of justice !

Absolutely. Some of these comments... Dreary me.

Such niggling incidents go on in every game. Some are picked up by referees and "chat" whilst running back to a position often works. However it's totally the players responsibility to behave himself on the pitch. Derby player wound him up, Sa took the bait with a red card offence and the appropriate yellow dished out to opponent. Job done.

[PeterReadingborn59]

It was effectively the lino/assistant ref who sent off Sa. The ref wasn't even looking in the direction of the incident when it happened. I can only assume that his assistant spoke to him over the radio link and said something like 'Head butt by Reading 10". The ref then decided that was good enough to rush over and brandish the red without conferring further with his assistant.

A p*ss poor way of managing the players and the crowd. It would have been far better for everyone had he made a point of going over and conferring with his assistant before dealing with both players at the same time.

Instead the pratt rushed to deal with Sa before eventually wandering back to confer with his assistant, prior to issuing the soft yellow to the Derby cheat.

+1 totally agree, referee showed to be a typical by the book type that exist these days, with no use of experience he should have built-up through the years, to know that such an incident normally takes two who should be treated in a similar fashion, to treat players differently would require additional information from the assistant referee and I doubt if that occurred over the mics - the referee had allowed the Derby player to kick and hold Sa through out the first half without taking any action and an experienced referee would have had a word with both before the incident.

You obviously have no idea about refereeing, or indeed basic principles of justice !

You are so wrong as always Nameless as I am a qualified referee with experience across various Leagues.

[LUX]

Dreary me.

lolz

[Nameless]

Well Peter if you are an experienced ref your comments are even more bizarre.
Are you really suggesting that you would see or be advised of a player striking another and automatically send both off because you assume both had committed a violent conduct offence ? Surely you punish what you and your co official actually see, not what you think might have happened ?
It's hardly common sense to assume that an offence has been committed despite no one seeing it !
With the officials miked up it's easy to communicate without standing face to face. If the Lino said 'violent conduct, Reading 10 (can't recall Sa's number !!), need to talk about other action' then they've done their job.
I do agree with RB though that he could have held off on Sa's card, called both players over and shown appropriate ones. It did look a bit messy.

[Sutekh]

The sending off was about the only thing the officials got right really. The incident was seen by the lino who is "miked up" and told the ref who immediately sent off the one for violent conduct and booked the other for shirt pulling/ungentlemanly conduct or whatever that falls under these days.

It probably wasn't him, but I'm convinced it was Shackell who went through the back of Sa on the halfway line about 10 minutes earlier and the ref did nothing despite having booked Tshibola for a lesser offence earlier in the game.

[Nameless]

Unsporting behaviour is the catchall phrase covering most yellow cards these days.

[PeterReadingborn59]

Well Peter if you are an experienced ref your comments are even more bizarre.
Are you really suggesting that you would see or be advised of a player striking another and automatically send both off because you assume both had committed a violent conduct offence ? Surely you punish what you and your co official actually see, not what you think might have happened ?
It's hardly common sense to assume that an offence has been committed despite no one seeing it !
With the officials miked up it's easy to communicate without standing face to face. If the Lino said 'violent conduct, Reading 10 (can't recall Sa's number !!), need to talk about other action' then they've done their job.
I do agree with RB though that he could have held off on Sa's card, called both players over and shown appropriate ones. It did look a bit messy.

to answer your points:
- as you have stated "it did look a bit messy"
- the referee is responsible for the management of the pitch and should consider how his actions are perceived by those on and off the pitch,
- the referee seem to go into a myopic world of his own focused on merely sending Sa off,
- the referee should have spoken with the assistant directly to verify exactly what he did see, few players go around head butting opponents without some reason,
- most referees are aware that the ten minutes at the start and end of a half are often the most common times when a referee needs to be alert to an incident,
- on Tuesday the referee had allowed most incidents and fouls to go without speaking to the offender,
- several of the challenges had been putting other players at risk of incurring an injury such as Shaw suffered on Tuesday.
- when you are dealing with two players - you should speak to both - if one is to receive a lesser punishment - caution them first and send them away and then send the other off,

[Nameless]

But you stick with the idea that based on experience rather than observation you would send off two players if just one of them had been seen to be guilty of violent conduct ?
Clearly the officials worked out that there was a 'reason' why Sa acted the way he did, hence the yellow card shown to Shakell.

[PeterReadingborn59]

But you stick with the idea that based on experience rather than observation you would send off two players if just one of them had been seen to be guilty of violent conduct ?
Clearly the officials worked out that there was a 'reason' why Sa acted the way he did, hence the yellow card shown to Shakell.

I never stated that I would send both players off, Nameless made that incorrect assumption, I had agreed with the previous comment that the referee had mismanaged the match, "and was a bit messy" and this was particularly demonstrated in how he handled the Sa offence.

[Nameless]

You said these incidents involve 2 players based on experience, and that both should be treated the same, and that you don't think the relevant information was communicated by mic.
But that ignores the fundamental point that officials can only deal with what they see. And clearly they saw one red card offence and one yellow. So your point is irrelevant because they correctly dealt with what they saw.

[PeterReadingborn59]

On the SA Incident...

I was in line and got a good view.


Not sure what started the whole thing but Shackle (sp?) gave a load of verbal
and was very intimidating, moving towards SA. He then "chest-butted" SA who
stood his ground.

Shackle then pushed his forehead at SA. Not a head-butt exactly. They were chest to
chest and he just "leaned'. They both pulled back ever so slightly (at this point it
would be a yellow each, maybe a red for Shackle) but then Shackle feinted a head-but
and SA fainted back, slightly more obviously. IMO there was no head contact from the
so-called head-set.

Sa was beautifully conned by a defender trying to get him sent off and frankly he
should be fined.

The linesman, who was useless all night, bottled it, IMO.

In all honesty, neither really deserved a red, but the Derby man
was just as guilty, so two reds or two yellows.

I saw it as they were squaring up face-to-face, but Sa was the first to move his head in a very deliberate, obvious manner towards Shackell.

It was right in front of me, although I'd love to see a full replay of the incident to be sure of what happened.

Either way, I think Shackell did well (from Derby's point of view) to provoke Sa into reacting. That must have been mentioned before the game, as some of the rough challenges on Sa also suggested. But also, as I said before, he could have gone down after the 'head butt' and caused a mass brawl, so I will credit him for at least staying on his feet. If the ref sees a player do what Sa did, he will likely send him off regardless of the opponents' reaction.

Sa will need to learn how to deal with shit defenders who will provoke him instead of trying to defend properly against him, which Shackell didn't do all night, and hopefully he will learn from the mistake and control himself better next time.

just confirms the officials were Oxf*rd as the assistant failed to observe what others saw and the referee mismanaged the whole thing and did not take time to manage the affair in a more controlled manner

[paultheroyal]

^^^^

It was one of the most controlled sending off's I have ever seen.

Incident, communication, red card, off the pitch.

Players did not really react in a negative fashion - they knew.

But hey - lets have a meeting and a huddle about it.

Oh but the assistant did deal with it - shirt pulling by Derby defender (yellow) headbutt by Sa (red)

[Nameless]

Odd that the description above is consistent with the action taken by the officials.
What action would you have taken ?
And why would you assume the highly trained neutral professional is wrong whilst the untrained and unqualified partial observer ( who may also be reporting what they believed they saw fairly and without conscious bias ) is right ?

[paultheroyal]

We clearly need more of this and fan participation

[Armadillo Roadkill]

On BBCRB after the game, they were decrying that referees go by the book, follow the rules, and so don't use their experience to interpret the situations.

The same people who used to bang on about "inconsistency" in referees being the problem.

The officials can never win.

[Nameless]

It will always be thus.
I don't think the officials always help themselves. I love watching rugby refs who are generally superb at game management but if a football ref tried to adopt the same style they would get nowhere.