BFTG - United (A)

[No Fixed Abode]

Do you think there is a big gulf in terms of quality with the bottom teams in the Prem and the top sides in the Champ? Hull gave United a much harder game last night and they look certainties for relegation this season.

Hull got battered in a different way to Reading.

Reading had far more possession than Hull, who sat
back and just invited wave after wave of pressure.

Reading were wide open* and got repeatedly cut to pieces

*like yo'mamma's legs....etc

I think you're just defending Reading here *just because. Hull created more chances than Reading and looked a more solid unit.

[genome]

I wonder if that has anything to do with them having better players than Reading and playing in a higher standard of league

[OLLIE KEARNS]

I wonder if that has anything to do with them having better players than Reading and playing in a higher standard of league

That was the initial discussion question from NFA. If it's that simple then you'd have to believe that the current Hull side would be 1st or 2nd in the Championship this year i.e better than Reading. I personally think tactics employed is the issue as opposed to Hull being a much better team but that's just my opinion of course.

[Woodcote Royal]

All this goes to the very heart of our defensive woes and why signing someone like Ilori is far more significant than paying megabucks for a striker when Kermorgant is finally adding goals to all the other good stuff he brings to the side. Kermit is currently Japp's number one regardless of the price tag on any newcomer.

Gunter is an excellent wing back and a very average full back who has cost us countless goals over the years by backing off and allowing crosses to come in that would rarely have arrived had Murty, Shorey and many other predecessors been involved. I agree Murty versus Ronaldo was one of his best ever performances while the thought of Gunter facing him scares me.

A fully fit back 3 with Gunter and Obita as wing backs is a very decent defence because it plays to all our strengths, even putting Blackett in his best position. Our problems start as soon injuries force a change, especially reverting to 4-4-2 when Obita is out.

[genome]

I wonder if that has anything to do with them having better players than Reading and playing in a higher standard of league

That was the initial discussion question from NFA. If it's that simple then you'd have to believe that the current Hull side would be 1st or 2nd in the Championship this year i.e better than Reading. I personally think tactics employed is the issue as opposed to Hull being a much better team but that's just my opinion of course.

Well, indeed. Football is not black and white (despite what Kes thinks) and players are not robots, and on a different day Reading may have performed better and Hull may have performed worse.

If you have a better squad on paper then you just increase your chances of playing well.

[BR0B0T]

I wonder if that has anything to do with them having better players than Reading and playing in a higher standard of league

That was the initial discussion question from NFA. If it's that simple then you'd have to believe that the current Hull side would be 1st or 2nd in the Championship this year i.e better than Reading. I personally think tactics employed is the issue as opposed to Hull being a much better team but that's just my opinion of course.

Well, indeed. Football is not black and white (despite what Kes thinks) and players are not robots, and on a different day Reading may have performed better and Hull may have performed worse.

If you have a better squad on paper then you just increase your chances of playing well.

(robots players are coming)

Home Team: Man Utd
Away Team: Reading
Possession: Home 45% Away 55%
Shots: Home 27 Away 7
On Target: Home 12 Away 1
Corners: Home 7 Away 4
Fouls: Home 7 Away 10

Home Team: Man Utd
Away Team: Hull
Possession: Home 66% Away 34%
Shots: Home 21 Away 6
On Target: Home 6 Away 3
Corners: Home 8 Away 2
Fouls: Home 13 Away1 1

[Hound]

All this goes to the very heart of our defensive woes and why signing someone like Ilori is far more significant than paying megabucks for a striker when Kermorgant is finally adding goals to all the other good stuff he brings to the side. Kermit is currently Japp's number one regardless of the price tag on any newcomer.

Gunter is an excellent wing back and a very average full back who has cost us countless goals over the years by backing off and allowing crosses to come in that would rarely have arrived had Murty, Shorey and many other predecessors been involved. I agree Murty versus Ronaldo was one of his best ever performances while the thought of Gunter facing him scares me.

A fully fit back 3 with Gunter and Obita as wing backs is a very decent defence because it plays to all our strengths, even putting Blackett in his best position. Our problems start as soon injuries force a change, especially reverting to 4-4-2 when Obita is out.

yep. Would then add to this by saying we can then put McCleary more central with Yann to give him more support which also helps us up front.

As has been said, difficult to criticise Jaap for much - but relying on Blackett and Gunter as full backs in a back 4 was an error

[SCIAG]

Gunter - defender in his prime signed for the PL - vs Martial
Murty - defender in his twilight signed for L1 vs Ronaldo

Murty put in way better performances.

Did he?

We played United six times when Murty was here.

Home 06/07 - Kieran Richardson started on the left. Shorey kept Ronaldo quiet. Richardson went off, Ronaldo switched flanks and scored.
Away 06/07 - Ronaldo scored two and set up one. The HNA? match report says we were weak down Murty's side, particularly when he tried to play on with an injury.
Two FA Cup matches - Murty rested
Away 07/08 - Murty marked Giggs and played very well.
Home 07/08 - I don't really remember how Murty played in this match, just that Cisse played well, Matejovsky looked good, and both (late) goals came from attacks down United's left.

[No Fixed Abode]

I wonder if that has anything to do with them having better players than Reading and playing in a higher standard of league

That was the initial discussion question from NFA. If it's that simple then you'd have to believe that the current Hull side would be 1st or 2nd in the Championship this year i.e better than Reading. I personally think tactics employed is the issue as opposed to Hull being a much better team but that's just my opinion of course.

Well, indeed. Football is not black and white (despite what Kes thinks) and players are not robots, and on a different day Reading may have performed better and Hull may have performed worse.

If you have a better squad on paper then you just increase your chances of playing well.

But that's all conjecture Genome. You can only go off what you've seen on the pitch on the day. Of course Reading could play better and Hull play worse. But they didn't.

[genome]

So why bring it up?

[Ian Royal]

Gunter - defender in his prime signed for the PL - vs Martial
Murty - defender in his twilight signed for L1 vs Ronaldo

Murty put in way better performances.

Did he?

We played United six times when Murty was here.

Home 06/07 - Kieran Richardson started on the left. Shorey kept Ronaldo quiet. Richardson went off, Ronaldo switched flanks and scored.
Away 06/07 - Ronaldo scored two and set up one. The HNA? match report says we were weak down Murty's side, particularly when he tried to play on with an injury.
Two FA Cup matches - Murty rested
Away 07/08 - Murty marked Giggs and played very well.
Home 07/08 - I don't really remember how Murty played in this match, just that Cisse played well, Matejovsky looked good, and both (late) goals came from attacks down United's left.

Yes. Stats don't tell the whole story.

[SCIAG]

I didn't use any stats. Well, apart from "Ronaldo got past Murty and scored".

Shorey had Ronaldo's number. Murty didn't come up against him much and generally lost when he did.

[No Fixed Abode]

So why bring it up?

You did. Reading 'could' win the Premier League but they haven't. If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle etc etc...

[genome]

So why bring it up?

You did. Reading 'could' win the Premier League but they haven't. If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle etc etc...

I meant why bring up the Premier League vs Championship gulf topic. It's a moot point, really. Some teams do well in Premier League after being promoted (Leicester, Bournemouth), others don't (Cardiff), some teams struggle in the Championship after being relegated (Aston Villa), others don't (Newcastle).

There are a multitude of factors and you can't make a judgement off the back of two games of football.

[No Fixed Abode]

But you can make a better judgement off two games of football than no games of football.

[Woodcote Royal]

I didn't use any stats. Well, apart from "Ronaldo got past Murty and scored".

Shorey had Ronaldo's number. Murty didn't come up against him much and generally lost when he did.

They both did well against him.

Murty could not have more than he did to stop Ronaldo getting past him to save Man U a point. Most Premiership full backs would have been pleased with the performances of our two that day and I've seen nothing from Gunter since he arrived to suggest he would have come close.

He has a great set of lungs but his defensive work often cost us dearly.

[genome]

But you can make a better judgement off two games of football than no games of football.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean there's any point in doing so.

[genome]

I didn't use any stats. Well, apart from "Ronaldo got past Murty and scored".

Shorey had Ronaldo's number. Murty didn't come up against him much and generally lost when he did.

They both did well against him.

Murty could not have more than he did to stop Ronaldo getting past him to save Man U a point. Most Premiership full backs would have been pleased with the performances of our two that day and I've seen nothing from Gunter since he arrived to suggest he would have come close.

He has a great set of lungs but his defensive work often cost us dearly.

Good article here by our Murts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/21650929

[muirinho]

I didn't use any stats. Well, apart from "Ronaldo got past Murty and scored".

Shorey had Ronaldo's number. Murty didn't come up against him much and generally lost when he did.

They both did well against him.

Murty could not have more than he did to stop Ronaldo getting past him to save Man U a point. Most Premiership full backs would have been pleased with the performances of our two that day and I've seen nothing from Gunter since he arrived to suggest he would have come close.

He has a great set of lungs but his defensive work often cost us dearly.

Good article here by our Murts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/21650929

Very telling quote from that - which is exactly what didn't happen for Martial in the United game

Essentially, playing against Ronaldo can't just be left to one defender.

You've got to function as an efficient team around him, stopping the supply line whenever possible and not allowing him to play in the areas where he wants.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread - Gunter actually made as many or more interventions than the rest of the defence (including one block tackle on Martial straight in front of goal) - what he didn't get, particularly in the first half an hour, was enough support from the rest of the team - especially the mid-field. Yes he was culpable - but he was not the only one.
Still, no surprise that the usual suspects want to blame everything going wrong on him.

If he's such a weak defender, how come there has never been the slightest hint of the club trying to replace him since his first season? he can't have Kompromat on all four managers (and two interim managers), can he? Been extended once and renewed once, named as captain by Adkins, clearly second in line to McShane in Stam's eyes. But yeah, he's awful, of course.

[No Fixed Abode]

But you can make a better judgement off two games of football than no games of football.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean there's any point in doing so.

I'd rather stick to facts, actual games watched than hypothetical situations you're so keen on.

Coulda, woulda shoulda.