Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

[Elm Park Kid]

I haven't seen any of the games this season, so I can't comment on performance. But overall i'd say that results are disappointing but not really surprising given the circumstances.

I don't think fans appreciate just how difficult it is to get an entirely new team to perform. Go and look back at the history of teams like Leicester and Villa who threw far more money than we did at their squad and just how long it was before they were challenging. We've had barely a couple of months.

My expectations is that we should be halting the 'rot' by November and winning more than we're losing by early spring. Would like to see us finish the season strong and hopefully break top half of the table. So we can go into next season with full confidence. If we're still around the relegation zone in February then I'll rethink my assessment of the manager.

[royalp-we]

Yiadom, Moore, Miazga, McIntyre, Richards, (Obita), Rino, Ejaria, Swift, Loader, Meite all played their part last season.

It’s not an entirely new team, they should be making progress but their stock is falling.

I think you would appreciate this if you viewed some performances. They are getting worse and looking at the fixtures coming up, I find it hard to see where we will get our next win.

[Dr_Hfuhruhurr]

Nice bit of fence-sitting tbf

Where do you want us (as a club) to be?

Hey I picked a side: I think he should stay. My point being that we are who we are right now, and the replacement is unlikely to be anyone particularly better. Therefore it's a choice between giving any of these managers time to evolve or keep getting in New ones who have to go through the whole 'find their feet' phase again and again.

Maybe Gomes takes us down. Maybe he learns, builds a team, takes us back up again.

Maybe we get someone new in and they magically are fantastic and we return to the level we were many seasons ago.

For me, the first feels more likely. But I dunno. Just my hunch.

My belief is that we should keep Gomes because the club dont currently demonstrate that they know who we need as a manager. We'd get somebody else just as ineffective.
But what a desperate and depressing stand point. You just end up accepting poor quality, and do nothing about it.

As mentioned before our PPG is awful. There was a league table a year ago that showed that only Huddersfield have been worse than us in recent times (since the Playoff Final) at picking up points, and since then we've been hovering around the relegation zone. AGAIN. The West Brom and Swansea draws are only good results if we are picking up wins elsewhere. We're not. If anything, Snowball's stats only emphasise how mediocre we are. The problem is the squad - we've been letting too many players who are Division One at best into the match day squad. Its no wonder we look like we're heading to Division One.

[DOYLERSAROYALER]

For me the issue is that Gomes does not know the style of football he wants to play, the formation to suit this, and his best 11 to fit into it...he has tinkered far too much so early in the season...you can understand why players may be struggling to know what Gomes actually wants...

In any time he has left he has to decide on his playing stayle, formation for that style and a settled first 11, bar injuries of course ...

Think guy trumps Tinkerman Benitez for changes...imo

[Snowflake Royal]

I'm seeing a lot of bleating about giving Gomes time.

Time to do what exactly? You give a manager time to sort out a poor squad. To get a team drilled in playing a particular way. To get beyond and counter specific weaknesses.

Gomes had a massive rebuilding job to do. And he's brought in masses of players. Quite a lot of that recruitment was questionable at the time or since.

What did Gomes do right last season? He picked a way of playing, built up a positive atmosphere and confidence and improved our performance thanks to some excellent loanees.

But what does his history of management tell us? Well, it tells us he never stays anywhere long. It tells us he never really improves a team much.

What's he doing currently? He's organised the team incredibly badly. He's introduced huge new weaknesses in being unable to defend our flanks, being totally disorganised in defence and midfield and chaotic in how we press the ball and mark. He's chopping and changing the XI and the shape regularly. What does this tell us? It tells us he doesn't have a plan, he's just reacting. Results are getting worse, the pattern of games is the same and his only solution to going behind (every game) is to throw on a bunch more attacking players.

Before you give a manager patience and time, you have to ask yourself what will the manager do with it? What is Gomes currently doing right? It's virtually nothing.

You don't give time just because being patient is virtuous. You give time to allow for learning and improvement. If it's not happening you don't give it.

Giving Stam time left us worse off. Giving him even more time probably would have relegated us.

Of our recent managers there's only two that might have been worth more time. McDermott and Clement. Brian definitely. Clement maybe. Stam should have had less time.

Gomes should have very little time left. If you're not showing yourself to be part of the solution, your part of the problem and Gomes is probably our biggest problem right now.

[Zip]

Ian. So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games? He has to change the playing style. That’s a given. If he doesn’t learn that in the next couple of weeks he’s gone.

After doing a very good job at turning it around last season (something you thought was not possible) you want him sacked after his first poor run.

He should be given longer to turn it around. If we are bottom three in two months time then yep he should go but he needs the chance to get results in winnable games v Millwall and Luton to get this back on track. This is on the assumption that he has learnt from the self induced problems we are seeing every week.

[leon]

“Bleating “ it’s language like that that gets people’s backs up Ian.

However things can take time to work. We’ve glimpsed what this team can do we need to see more organisation and a settled team. And we need to stop conceding pals.

I’m not confident though.

[Millsy]

It’s as though people are treating sacking as some sort of punishment. We all like the guy and he doesn’t deserve punishment so on that basis most of us who aren’t butthurt by the fact he’s foreign would otherwise like him to stay.

The issue is do we think he is the man to improve things. If yes he stays, if no, he goes no matter how likeable he is or what he achieved last season.

Ironically had he not produced that golden week of performances I might have had more patience believing he’d turn it around. He presumably could see he stumbled on a good strategy but then seemed to walk away from it and is still trying new things. Moore into midfield for example.

Probably what matters more than anything is trend.

Poll 1 80% in / 20% out
Poll 2 40% in/ 60% out

Some would argue “the people had spoken, why have another poll?” . But we have. And it shows that a whopping 50% of those who wanted him in now want him out. That’s a huge swing. My question is if this is the swing among his supporters then what will be the swing in the squad? If they lose confidence in the man he;ll be unable to improve things even if he has a eureka moment and figures the answer, so he must go.

[Snowflake Royal]

Ian. So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games? He has to change the playing style. That’s a given. If he doesn’t learn that in the next couple of weeks he’s gone.

After doing a very good job at turning it around last season (something you thought was not possible) you want him sacked after his first poor run.

He should be given longer to turn it around. If we are bottom three in two months time then yep he should go but he needs the chance to get results in winnable games v Millwall and Luton to get this back on track. This is on the assumption that he has learnt from the self induced problems we are seeing every week.

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

[URZZZZ]

It's quite ironic that the people that say "Gomes needs more time!" are the exact same people that were calling for Stam and Clement to go after the exact same period (just before the second international break). Infact, we're doing even worse this season than at the same stage the last two and with the most money spent. Double standards and all that

[AthleticoSpizz]

Not everybody

[Snowflake Royal]

It's quite ironic that the people that say "Gomes needs more time!" are the exact same people that were calling for Stam and Clement to go after the exact same period (just before the second international break). Infact, we're doing even worse this season than at the same stage the last two and with the most money spent. Double standards and all that

Don't think it's all people who wanted Stam out.

It is the people who never backed Clement and set their stall out to love Gomes because he wasn't Clement though.

[CountryRoyal]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

[krapmle]

So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games?

YES. For once and I hate to say it, I totally agree with fake snows post.

'm seeing a lot of bleating about giving Gomes time.

Time to do what exactly? You give a manager time to sort out a poor squad. To get a team drilled in playing a particular way. To get beyond and counter specific weaknesses.

Gomes had a massive rebuilding job to do. And he's brought in masses of players. Quite a lot of that recruitment was questionable at the time or since.

What did Gomes do right last season? He picked a way of playing, built up a positive atmosphere and confidence and improved our performance thanks to some excellent loanees.

But what does his history of management tell us? Well, it tells us he never stays anywhere long. It tells us he never really improves a team much.

What's he doing currently? He's organised the team incredibly badly. He's introduced huge new weaknesses in being unable to defend our flanks, being totally disorganised in defence and midfield and chaotic in how we press the ball and mark. He's chopping and changing the XI and the shape regularly. What does this tell us? It tells us he doesn't have a plan, he's just reacting. Results are getting worse, the pattern of games is the same and his only solution to going behind (every game) is to throw on a bunch more attacking players.

Before you give a manager patience and time, you have to ask yourself what will the manager do with it? What is Gomes currently doing right? It's virtually nothing.

You don't give time just because being patient is virtuous. You give time to allow for learning and improvement. If it's not happening you don't give it.

Giving Stam time left us worse off. Giving him even more time probably would have relegated us.

Of our recent managers there's only two that might have been worth more time. McDermott and Clement. Brian definitely. Clement maybe. Stam should have had less time.

Gomes should have very little time left. If you're not showing yourself to be part of the solution, your part of the problem and Gomes is probably our biggest problem right now.

and by the way, when I went to school they would literally wash your mouth out with a bar of soap, speaking the way you do at times. You really need to grow up.

[Snowflake Royal]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

Yep.

I'm most pissed off because I was hugely sceptical of Gomes, requiring hardline convincing he was any good with results. They come, I climb aboard the hype train and he goes to absolute shit.

0-0-4(1) for me now this season. Looking forward to making it 6 against Preston.

[Hound]

Ian. So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games? He has to change the playing style. That’s a given. If he doesn’t learn that in the next couple of weeks he’s gone.

After doing a very good job at turning it around last season (something you thought was not possible) you want him sacked after his first poor run.

He should be given longer to turn it around. If we are bottom three in two months time then yep he should go but he needs the chance to get results in winnable games v Millwall and Luton to get this back on track. This is on the assumption that he has learnt from the self induced problems we are seeing every week.

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

Considering the rest of your post and the one above it not sure why you’re even suggesting giving him 5 more games

[Zip]

Ian. So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games? He has to change the playing style. That’s a given. If he doesn’t learn that in the next couple of weeks he’s gone.

After doing a very good job at turning it around last season (something you thought was not possible) you want him sacked after his first poor run.

He should be given longer to turn it around. If we are bottom three in two months time then yep he should go but he needs the chance to get results in winnable games v Millwall and Luton to get this back on track. This is on the assumption that he has learnt from the self induced problems we are seeing every week.

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

Considering the rest of your post and the one above it not sure why you’re even suggesting giving him 5 more games

Yep I’m struggling with what he is saying.

[Zip]

It's quite ironic that the people that say "Gomes needs more time!" are the exact same people that were calling for Stam and Clement to go after the exact same period (just before the second international break). Infact, we're doing even worse this season than at the same stage the last two and with the most money spent. Double standards and all that

We spent considerably more money under Stam than we have under Gomes or have you forgotten the January and summer transfer windows in 2017 that placed us in so much debt? I also can’t recall asking for Stam to go in October 2017. That’s a nonsense. I never thought Clement was up to it.

[Zip]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

[krapmle]

it has nothing to do with what we spent, its about results and performances. The results are bad but not a deciding factor alone.
The bigger factor is whether there are any signs whatsoever of any improvement. There are clearly none. Zilch. Nothing whatsoever.
The performances actually get worse with each game.

On that basis , time is up. Go now for the sake of the club.