MATCHWATCH : Cardiff City (h)

[Stranded]

We are improving. That’s not in dispute. We have improved under Bowen too. I’m just not convinced the improvement under Pauno is as substantive as suggested. See Morgan’s post.

But by virtually any measure it has been i.e. if you look at thing that are substantive and not objective. He is certainly not perfect and has lots to learn but regardless of what the next 4 games bring, he was created an excellent platform to try and do so next year.

There is no doubt my judgement has been clouded by the fact we didn’t kick on after such a great start to the season. So I am being perhaps harder on him than is fair. I also felt Bowen was very poorly treated and isn’t given any credit at all for building a base from which we were able to progress.

Fair enough - and yes Bowen should get more credit for setting the base from which VP has kicked on - after all, he brought in Laurent and was apparently key in Morrison coming in, so he may well have been able to find more talent at next to no price but at the same time there did also seem to a bit of unrest around the end of the season which may have played a part in his removal.

[Hound]

But by virtually any measure it has been i.e. if you look at thing that are substantive and not objective. He is certainly not perfect and has lots to learn but regardless of what the next 4 games bring, he was created an excellent platform to try and do so next year.

There is no doubt my judgement has been clouded by the fact we didn’t kick on after such a great start to the season. So I am being perhaps harder on him than is fair. I also felt Bowen was very poorly treated and isn’t given any credit at all for building a base from which we were able to progress.

Fair enough - and yes Bowen should get more credit for setting the base from which VP has kicked on - after all, he brought in Laurent and was apparently key in Morrison coming in, so he may well have been able to find more talent at next to no price but at the same time there did also seem to a bit of unrest around the end of the season which may have played a part in his removal.

Its a shame something couldn't be worked out with Bowen staying as DOF really. He seemed to have that hard edge that was needed at times, if maybe not the people management that Pauno clearly has.

[Stranded]

There is no doubt my judgement has been clouded by the fact we didn’t kick on after such a great start to the season. So I am being perhaps harder on him than is fair. I also felt Bowen was very poorly treated and isn’t given any credit at all for building a base from which we were able to progress.

Fair enough - and yes Bowen should get more credit for setting the base from which VP has kicked on - after all, he brought in Laurent and was apparently key in Morrison coming in, so he may well have been able to find more talent at next to no price but at the same time there did also seem to a bit of unrest around the end of the season which may have played a part in his removal.

Its a shame something couldn't be worked out with Bowen staying as DOF really. He seemed to have that hard edge that was needed at times, if maybe not the people management that Pauno clearly has.

Aye, but I do like the football board that has been put in place instead.

[Snowflake Royal]

We'll find out next season really won't we.

Pauno isn't the all conquering genius we were all told he was at the start of the season. Bowen wasn't the deadbeat charlatan many of the same claimed.

At the moment we're a bit reliant on individuals playing well, but when they don't we're rather lame as a team.

When Joao, Ejaria and Olise play well we're different class. Even if only one of them does, we're play off material. But when they all stutter, so do we.

Dreary me.

Pauno has been excellent in his first season, Bowen did a job but by and large was awful

Clueless. Go back to blowing Antonio to the sound of Steps.

[Snowflake Royal]

Dreary me.

Pauno has been excellent in his first season, Bowen did a job but by and large was awful

This looks like an anti-Ian post rather than a true reflection of the season... Some of the points above are perfectly valid:

Has Pauno really been excellent? He certainly has his critics and some of the points they make are valid - poor substitutions, losing so-called easy games, points return isn't that much better than Bowen, when we desperately needed to win we haven't. Keeping Joao on penalties.

Was Bowen really that awful? He wasn't in the relegation battle that previous managers had been in. He is credited with bringing in some of this season's best players (Morrison, Laurent). Was his work last season the reason for our amazing start?

Is Reading a team or are we a set of individual players with their own agendas? When the going has got tough who has put the extra effort in - sometimes I think they don't realise that a place in the Premier League is at stake and they just pass it about slowly (as that what they're good at) whereas other teams flood forwards and attack at pace. Is this due to the skills of the personnel we have/don't have, the training or the mentality? Do players know they are off at the end of the season so don't care about Reading the team?

Lets just keep this simple.

Has the league position improved? YES
Is the football of a better quality? YES
Have we seen more emergence of the younger players? YES
Did you really expect us to be in the play offs come this appointment a week before the season? NO
Has the fans had something to cheer, support, hope during this season compared to others? YES
Is this an anti Ian post? NO

Which young players have Pauno introduced in more than just the odd cameo?

[tidus_mi2]

This looks like an anti-Ian post rather than a true reflection of the season... Some of the points above are perfectly valid:

Has Pauno really been excellent? He certainly has his critics and some of the points they make are valid - poor substitutions, losing so-called easy games, points return isn't that much better than Bowen, when we desperately needed to win we haven't. Keeping Joao on penalties.

Was Bowen really that awful? He wasn't in the relegation battle that previous managers had been in. He is credited with bringing in some of this season's best players (Morrison, Laurent). Was his work last season the reason for our amazing start?

Is Reading a team or are we a set of individual players with their own agendas? When the going has got tough who has put the extra effort in - sometimes I think they don't realise that a place in the Premier League is at stake and they just pass it about slowly (as that what they're good at) whereas other teams flood forwards and attack at pace. Is this due to the skills of the personnel we have/don't have, the training or the mentality? Do players know they are off at the end of the season so don't care about Reading the team?

Lets just keep this simple.

Has the league position improved? YES
Is the football of a better quality? YES
Have we seen more emergence of the younger players? YES
Did you really expect us to be in the play offs come this appointment a week before the season? NO
Has the fans had something to cheer, support, hope during this season compared to others? YES
Is this an anti Ian post? NO

Which young players have Pauno introduced in more than just the odd cameo?

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

[Snowflake Royal]

Lets just keep this simple.

Has the league position improved? YES
Is the football of a better quality? YES
Have we seen more emergence of the younger players? YES
Did you really expect us to be in the play offs come this appointment a week before the season? NO
Has the fans had something to cheer, support, hope during this season compared to others? YES
Is this an anti Ian post? NO

Which young players have Pauno introduced in more than just the odd cameo?

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

[Vision]

Which young players have Pauno introduced in more than just the odd cameo?

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

Suppose it depends on what you mean by emergence though.

There is no doubt that Holmes, Mcintyre, Olise and Richards have all blossomed this season. You could even at a push add Rino to that as last season was a bit "in and out" for him under Bowen.

Of course you'd expect young players to improve but I think the progression of all 4 of those has considerably exceeded where they were at last season and the current management should take a huge chunk of credit for that.

[Snowflake Royal]

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

Suppose it depends on what you mean by emergence though.

There is no doubt that Holmes, Mcintyre, Olise and Richards have all blossomed this season. You could even at a push add Rino to that as last season was a bit "in and out" for him under Bowen.

Of course you'd expect young players to improve but I think the progression of all 4 of those has considerably exceeded where they were at last season and the current management should take a huge chunk of credit for that.

Remember the context is about a comparison to Bowen from someone who described him as awful.

Have we seen more emergence of young players under Pauno than Bowen? No not at all. We've seen further development of them for sure, and Pauno should get credit for that.

But Rino was around before both. Richards the same. McIntyre has come on no more under Pauno than he did Bowen. Has Olise really come on more under Pauno than Bowen? It's been a similar quantum leap IMO.

Is Pauno giving more opportunity to youth players? No, not really.

[URZZZZ]

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

Suppose it depends on what you mean by emergence though.

There is no doubt that Holmes, Mcintyre, Olise and Richards have all blossomed this season. You could even at a push add Rino to that as last season was a bit "in and out" for him under Bowen.

Of course you'd expect young players to improve but I think the progression of all 4 of those has considerably exceeded where they were at last season and the current management should take a huge chunk of credit for that.

By the same token, Bowen inherited a squad of 27/28? first team players when he took over. Compare that number to when Paunovic took over. Is it that much of a surprise the youth are being called upon more this season?

Also, I don't think it's unfair to argue the emergence of Holmes and McIntyre primarily came about due to injuries. Both Yiadom and Moore have missed fairly large chunks of the season, whereas it wasn't so much the case last season. Even with McIntyre performing very well with Moore out - he was dropped as soon as Moore came back which IMO was poor management

Wasn't his greatest fan but finding it hard to understand the general dismissive attitude towards Bowen

[Stranded]

Which young players have Pauno introduced in more than just the odd cameo?

Just Tom Holmes really, he had one career league appearance before this season. I think it's difficult to give him credit for that one though as it was more out of desperation due to lack of options at right back and it just worked out.

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

It could be argued that McIntyre starting over Moore was simply a by product of Bowen expecting Moore to be gone last summer. IIRC, and happy to be corrected, Moore was injured and TM stayed in the side after he was fit but this was in the re-start. So Bowen may well have been looking at if he needed to bring in a new CB or if McIntyre could do the job.

[Hound]

Wonder how much was in the Moore leaving thing. Did Bowen actually have a way out for him?

He's been good this season but if Bowen/Howe had a move lined up for him, and maybe a few million quid in, it probably should have happened

[Vision]

I'd say Holmes is fair.

McIntyre got selected over Moore by Bowen
Olise give a break by Gomes, but then weaned in by Bowen
Richards Stam and everyone since.

Onen, Melvin-Lambert, Tetek and co hardly count, though very good to see them involved around the squad. Bit easier with a millions subs though.

Suppose it depends on what you mean by emergence though.

There is no doubt that Holmes, Mcintyre, Olise and Richards have all blossomed this season. You could even at a push add Rino to that as last season was a bit "in and out" for him under Bowen.

Of course you'd expect young players to improve but I think the progression of all 4 of those has considerably exceeded where they were at last season and the current management should take a huge chunk of credit for that.

By the same token, Bowen inherited a squad of 27/28? first team players when he took over. Compare that number to when Paunovic took over. Is it that much of a surprise the youth are being called upon more this season?

Also, I don't think it's unfair to argue the emergence of Holmes and McIntyre primarily came about due to injuries. Both Yiadom and Moore have missed fairly large chunks of the season, whereas it wasn't so much the case last season. Even with McIntyre performing very well with Moore out - he was dropped as soon as Moore came back which IMO was poor management

Wasn't his greatest fan but finding it hard to understand the general dismissive attitude towards Bowen

Certainly not being dismissive of Bowen but I find it hard to understand how people can't see how much improvement there's been in Olise, Richards and Mcintyre this season.

As for Tom Holmes , there wasn't much optimism amongst the fan base for him playing at Right Back as a replacement for Yiadom. That was a pretty left field selection initially.

Perhaps Bowen would have played them all and they'd have been just as good but we'll never know that. What I am sure about is that all 4 of them (plus Rino if I want to really stretch the point) were considerably better than under Bowen (and Gomes for that matter) to the point where they became essential members of the First Team.

[URZZZZ]

Suppose it depends on what you mean by emergence though.

There is no doubt that Holmes, Mcintyre, Olise and Richards have all blossomed this season. You could even at a push add Rino to that as last season was a bit "in and out" for him under Bowen.

Of course you'd expect young players to improve but I think the progression of all 4 of those has considerably exceeded where they were at last season and the current management should take a huge chunk of credit for that.

By the same token, Bowen inherited a squad of 27/28? first team players when he took over. Compare that number to when Paunovic took over. Is it that much of a surprise the youth are being called upon more this season?

Also, I don't think it's unfair to argue the emergence of Holmes and McIntyre primarily came about due to injuries. Both Yiadom and Moore have missed fairly large chunks of the season, whereas it wasn't so much the case last season. Even with McIntyre performing very well with Moore out - he was dropped as soon as Moore came back which IMO was poor management

Wasn't his greatest fan but finding it hard to understand the general dismissive attitude towards Bowen

Certainly not being dismissive of Bowen but I find it hard to understand how people can't see how much improvement there's been in Olise, Richards and Mcintyre this season.

As for Tom Holmes , there wasn't much optimism amongst the fan base for him playing at Right Back as a replacement for Yiadom. That was a pretty left field selection initially.

Perhaps Bowen would have played them all and they'd have been just as good but we'll never know that. What I am sure about is that all 4 of them (plus Rino if I want to really stretch the point) were considerably better than under Bowen (and Gomes for that matter) to the point where they became essential members of the First Team.

For the record, I wasn’t insinuating that you were being dismissive of Bowen - talking more from a general attitude from people here

Wholeheartedly agree that there’s been clear improvements in Richards and Olise particularly. From memory, Olise didn’t register a single goal/assist last year in the league, and there’s been a distinct improvement with regards to that score this season

The point I was making though was that Bowen took over with three first teams LB’s at the club. Paunovic with just the one - so naturally in that scenario there’s a greater opportunity to play Richards. Had we still had Blackett and Obita contracted for another year, who knows what Paunovic would have done

Same with Olise. He was competing with Swift, Ejaria, Meite, Boye, Obita, McCleary, Loader, Barrett, Masika etc etc for a spot last season, whereas it’s only really the first three along with Aluko this season

Not sure I quite agree with the Gomes comments though. He dropped Rinomhota on a regular basis and when he did play him, played him as a CDM, restricting his strengths and abilities. Richards had a great start to the 19/20 season yet still dropped him after one poor game. Loader had become 6th choice striker under him and Olise scarcely featured after he’d made his summer signings

[Vision]

By the same token, Bowen inherited a squad of 27/28? first team players when he took over. Compare that number to when Paunovic took over. Is it that much of a surprise the youth are being called upon more this season?

Also, I don't think it's unfair to argue the emergence of Holmes and McIntyre primarily came about due to injuries. Both Yiadom and Moore have missed fairly large chunks of the season, whereas it wasn't so much the case last season. Even with McIntyre performing very well with Moore out - he was dropped as soon as Moore came back which IMO was poor management

Wasn't his greatest fan but finding it hard to understand the general dismissive attitude towards Bowen

Certainly not being dismissive of Bowen but I find it hard to understand how people can't see how much improvement there's been in Olise, Richards and Mcintyre this season.

As for Tom Holmes , there wasn't much optimism amongst the fan base for him playing at Right Back as a replacement for Yiadom. That was a pretty left field selection initially.

Perhaps Bowen would have played them all and they'd have been just as good but we'll never know that. What I am sure about is that all 4 of them (plus Rino if I want to really stretch the point) were considerably better than under Bowen (and Gomes for that matter) to the point where they became essential members of the First Team.

Not sure I quite agree with the Gomes comments though. He dropped Rinomhota on a regular basis and when he did play him, played him as a CDM, restricting his strengths and abilities. Richards had a great start to the 19/20 season yet still dropped him after one poor game. Loader had become 6th choice striker under him and Olise scarcely featured after he’d made his summer signings

Dont want to derail the thread with old debates but I think it's quite clear they were not "his summer signings". Gomes made it pretty clear he wanted a Small Youngish Squad (hence the decision to move McCleary, Baldock, Gunter on). What he got was , as you pointed out with reference to the size of Bowen's squad, was completely different.

[Davezk]

Should win this one