CONFIMRED - The final countdown

[Crusader Royal]

There’s also no guarantee it will produce the level of player it has over the last 2-3 years

No reason it shouldn’t but you’d have to consider that

Yes , you certainly have to factor in that this quality of player was generally part of Championship status intakes.

We'd be towards the bottom of the pecking order for recruiting Cat 1 level youngsters now.

We’ve been about the lowest ranked Cat 1 club for ages but recruitment is more subtle than everyone wanting to join Liverpool’s academy.
We’ve fished heavily in the extremely fertile London waters. There are loads of talented kids who get cut from the bigger club’s academies each year and we’re a great option for them. Being close to London means they don’t have to move but not being in London is actually a positive for quite a few ( see interview with Tish a while ago about getting away from negative influences on many estates).
We provide top facilities, we have a proven path to the first team but we need to ensure we have top coaching .
For many the Olise example is a more realistic one than the Foden one. Aim to be the standout player in a smaller pond and get a move rather than try and compete with the elite and get lost.

[Hound]

Yes think we are an extremely attractive academy….if the club sorts some of its shit out that is

Superb location and facilities, proven path to the first team etc

[WestYorksRoyal]

I don't understand why any prospective owner would choose anything other than to go all in for the academy.

Our club has a lot going for it; location near London, massive catchment area, top training ground, reasonable stadium. All the potential is there, you just need a strategy to achieve it.

Well we also just happen to have one of the best academies in the country. It's the golden ticket to get us punching above our weight and growing as a club.

Because a Cat 1 Academy is somewhere between a quarter and half our entire yearly income.

Comes back to penny wise and pound foolish. We're ultimately a financial asset. You can cut the academy, settle for a L1 budget and move us out of Bearwood, but when it comes to selling us there is little value left, which seems odd when you're paying £30m to buy us.

Or you can continue funding, use player sales to help cover losses in L1 and then when we get into to the Championship we're worth substantially more.

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

[Esteban]

I don't understand why any prospective owner would choose anything other than to go all in for the academy.

Our club has a lot going for it; location near London, massive catchment area, top training ground, reasonable stadium. All the potential is there, you just need a strategy to achieve it.

Well we also just happen to have one of the best academies in the country. It's the golden ticket to get us punching above our weight and growing as a club.

Because a Cat 1 Academy is somewhere between a quarter and half our entire yearly income.

Comes back to penny wise and pound foolish. We're ultimately a financial asset. You can cut the academy, settle for a L1 budget and move us out of Bearwood, but when it comes to selling us there is little value left, which seems odd when you're paying £30m to buy us.

Or you can continue funding, use player sales to help cover losses in L1 and then when we get into to the Championship we're worth substantially more.

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

I think I'm right in saying that most of our major academy successes have been from picking up lads let go from London clubs? If we were a cat 2 academy, would that make us less attractive to a player with that profile? Not sure it would, given we've got proven pathways to the first team for good, young players, are close to London and have great facilities.

I don't know what the cost difference between a cat 1 and cat 2 academy is, but dropping it down to cat 2 for a period of time until the finances are in a better place might be a good option for us.

[Greatwesternline]

Because a Cat 1 Academy is somewhere between a quarter and half our entire yearly income.

Comes back to penny wise and pound foolish. We're ultimately a financial asset. You can cut the academy, settle for a L1 budget and move us out of Bearwood, but when it comes to selling us there is little value left, which seems odd when you're paying £30m to buy us.

Or you can continue funding, use player sales to help cover losses in L1 and then when we get into to the Championship we're worth substantially more.

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

I think I'm right in saying that most of our major academy successes have been from picking up lads let go from London clubs? If we were a cat 2 academy, would that make us less attractive to a player with that profile? Not sure it would, given we've got proven pathways to the first team for good, young players, are close to London and have great facilities.

I don't know what the cost difference between a cat 1 and cat 2 academy is, but dropping it down to cat 2 for a period of time until the finances are in a better place might be a good option for us.

Being Cat 1 gives you first refusal on players from other Cat 1s. Cat 2s only get the option after Cat 1s have said no. So if we lose Cat 1, we lose getting Olise or Craig or whoever who has dropped out of other Cat 1s, because they won't choose a Cat 2. It harms their progression.

[Esteban]

Comes back to penny wise and pound foolish. We're ultimately a financial asset. You can cut the academy, settle for a L1 budget and move us out of Bearwood, but when it comes to selling us there is little value left, which seems odd when you're paying £30m to buy us.

Or you can continue funding, use player sales to help cover losses in L1 and then when we get into to the Championship we're worth substantially more.

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

I think I'm right in saying that most of our major academy successes have been from picking up lads let go from London clubs? If we were a cat 2 academy, would that make us less attractive to a player with that profile? Not sure it would, given we've got proven pathways to the first team for good, young players, are close to London and have great facilities.

I don't know what the cost difference between a cat 1 and cat 2 academy is, but dropping it down to cat 2 for a period of time until the finances are in a better place might be a good option for us.

Being Cat 1 gives you first refusal on players from other Cat 1s. Cat 2s only get the option after Cat 1s have said no. So if we lose Cat 1, we lose getting Olise or Craig or whoever who has dropped out of other Cat 1s, because they won't choose a Cat 2. It harms their progression.

Fair enough then. I wonder who we missed out on when we were cat 2 for that season a couple of years ago?

[From Despair To Where?]

If I was a Crystal Palace or Brighton scout, for example, I'd be more impressed with an 18 year old holding their own in League One than bossing age group football. The talent should be inmate but you can't teach the ability to cope against bigger, stronger, more experienced opponents.

[Snowflake Royal]

I don't understand why any prospective owner would choose anything other than to go all in for the academy.

Our club has a lot going for it; location near London, massive catchment area, top training ground, reasonable stadium. All the potential is there, you just need a strategy to achieve it.

Well we also just happen to have one of the best academies in the country. It's the golden ticket to get us punching above our weight and growing as a club.

Because a Cat 1 Academy is somewhere between a quarter and half our entire yearly income.

Comes back to penny wise and pound foolish. We're ultimately a financial asset. You can cut the academy, settle for a L1 budget and move us out of Bearwood, but when it comes to selling us there is little value left, which seems odd when you're paying £30m to buy us.

Or you can continue funding, use player sales to help cover losses in L1 and then when we get into to the Championship we're worth substantially more.

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

Depends on how much those savings make it easier to strengthen the playing side and get us back into the Championship securely to then get back the previous Academy and Training footing.

It's not a zero sum game.

[ILoveMoonPig]

I don't understand why any prospective owner would choose anything other than to go all in for the academy.

Our club has a lot going for it; location near London, massive catchment area, top training ground, reasonable stadium. All the potential is there, you just need a strategy to achieve it.

Well we also just happen to have one of the best academies in the country. It's the golden ticket to get us punching above our weight and growing as a club.

Because a Cat 1 Academy is somewhere between a quarter and half our entire yearly income.

Would it depend on what our transfer budget would be? I can see that having a Cat 2 academy (especially if its just for a short period) does not mean the instantaneous disintegration of our youth setup. Even so, I think my personal preference would be to pump any transfer money into the academy than continue buying in new payers every single year. Yeah its less exciting, and yes it often means you have a thin squad, but could you justify it on the basis that its better for english football for some clubs to do this, especially lower down the football league?

[WestYorksRoyal]

Cutting your academy to fund the 1st team is a bad decision of Dai proportions. Good players come and go; the ability to produce good players is a sustainable advantage over your competitors. It would be like selling some foundational material beneath your house to buy a summer house in the garden.

[Crusader Royal]

Not sure the assumption that we could just decide to drop to Cat 2 for a couple of years then bounce back to Cat 1 is valid.
We got back our Cat 1 a couple of years ago because we failed an inspection and we allowed the chance to correct the issues and be reassessed.
If we dropped down to make cost savings I suspect we’d find it hard to get it back very quickly. We’d get asset stripped by other clubs of any decent staff we have.

[Hiram K Hackenbacker]

The cloth cutting route is a hiding to nothing financially. Of course sensible savings may be identified, but a strategic decision to become a small club is idiotic.

I agree

[Royal Rother]

Cutting your academy to fund the 1st team is a bad decision of Dai proportions.

Dai aka Fcuking Epic.

[East Grinstead Royal]

Any new owner will - in the eyes of many - be judged very quickly on how the academy is handled in the aftermath of takeover. Get that wrong and we will be another Swindon, forever stuck in Leagues 1 and 2, with the occasional threat of dropping into the National League.

[Crusader Royal]

Any new owner will - in the eyes of many - be judged very quickly on how the academy is handled in the aftermath of takeover. Get that wrong and we will be another Swindon, forever stuck in Leagues 1 and 2, with the occasional threat of dropping into the National League.

Depends on how they operate.
Clubs our size have been very successful using recruitment methods other than via an academy.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Any new owner will - in the eyes of many - be judged very quickly on how the academy is handled in the aftermath of takeover. Get that wrong and we will be another Swindon, forever stuck in Leagues 1 and 2, with the occasional threat of dropping into the National League.

Depends on how they operate.
Clubs our size have been very successful using recruitment methods other than via an academy.

There's also an important point about understanding the culture and values of the club though. I appreciate Brentford climbed up the levels without an academy, but we're proud of ours and the players we have produced. We have a stand named after Eamonn Dolan. Any new owner who announces substantial cuts to the academy will immediately alienate the majority of the fanbase, even if they have an alternate strategy. And clubs are rarely successful where that's the case; everyone needs to be bought into the vision, including the fans.

[Snowflake Royal]

Any new owner will - in the eyes of many - be judged very quickly on how the academy is handled in the aftermath of takeover. Get that wrong and we will be another Swindon, forever stuck in Leagues 1 and 2, with the occasional threat of dropping into the National League.

Depends on how they operate.
Clubs our size have been very successful using recruitment methods other than via an academy.

Agreed. They should be judged on whether they're running the club well, improving the squad and getting performances on the pitch.

We all love the Academy, but it is simply unaffordable long term at this level, it was a struggle to afford it at Champ level. We have to have realistic expectations. Overspending is what put us in this mess.

Tough decisions will be needed.

[Hound]

Any new owner will - in the eyes of many - be judged very quickly on how the academy is handled in the aftermath of takeover. Get that wrong and we will be another Swindon, forever stuck in Leagues 1 and 2, with the occasional threat of dropping into the National League.

Depends on how they operate.
Clubs our size have been very successful using recruitment methods other than via an academy.

Agreed. They should be judged on whether they're running the club well, improving the squad and getting performances on the pitch.

We all love the Academy, but it is simply unaffordable long term at this level, it was a struggle to afford it at Champ level. We have to have realistic expectations. Overspending is what put us in this mess.

Tough decisions will be needed.

Again I’d be interested to know how much we’d save though - I guess a lot of the money to make it a cat1 has already been spent - Bearwood, the dome at Forest school etc. Not like we can lease them out I doubt whilst not in use

[Linden Jones' Tash]

Also, based on the content of the Exeter City game thread, I'd take all the comments around preferring "young raw academy talent over journeymen on a last pay day" with a pinch of salt

Ultimately we want to watch a team that wins more than it loses and the finances of English football as so far from the realms of reality that there is no point even trying to understand it

[Royal Rother]

How much does the Cat 1 cost us?

How much are the wages of the players that come into the 1st Team via the Academy (compared to signings from elsewhere)?

How much profit do we make when we sell an Academy player (compared to signings from elsewhere)?

Of course smart business CAN be done with astute signings from elsewhere but I'd suggest the Risk & Cost v Reward is likely to continue providing much better results from maintaining the Academy in its current form than going down any steps of the same old route that brought us to the position we have been in for the most part of the last decade.

Having a more secure financial footing will put us in a better position to negotiate some better / longer-term contracts early on in their progression, thus enabling even better results from the ongoing sales of Academy products.