Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

[Hoop Blah]

For everyone who thinks we shouldn't put out a 'changed' team, you'd all be happy if Doyle played on Saturday?

I'll be over the moon because I want us to win the game.

Without Doyle our chances of winning drop dramatically.

[Hoop Blah]

In fact we've actually produced some fantastic matches in the cup and had a player named as player of the round in the FA Cup. But lets ignore that all shall we.

I'm not sure that Federici picking up player of the round is anything to be overly proud of really. It only happened because we were playing Utd and it was on Telly and, possibly, he was exposed because of the mix matched team infront of him giving him a bit too much to do...

But, the reward for playing him in those games when he wouldn't have played at all otherwise, is that he's been ready for action in the last few weeks. And his goalscoring ability has certainly improved.

He will certainly have benefitted from playing in the cup games over the last 12 months or so. No problem with that, I just think he might've benefitted just as much, if not more, by playing behind a selection much closer to our first choice team or by taking part in a few league games along the way when Marcus was struggling with form or fitness (Marcus played the first game of the season without having any proper first team action if I remember rightly - that might've been a good time to play our fully fit second choice keeper if he was deemed good enough for the first team cup side).

[PieEater]

The article was 100% correct but would have had more relevance in picking on Reading as an example of clubs that field fringe players (when everyone does), if they'd of mentioned that Pompey rested key players v Fulham for their last league game in preference to the FA cup final. Them losing that league game got us relegated.

i.e we got our comeuppance in a strange twist of fate.

[Jimbo]

For everyone who thinks we shouldn't put out a 'changed' team, you'd all be happy if Doyle played on Saturday?

Of course.

That was such a dumb question. Who would be unhappy that our top scorer was playing.

Personally I think a rest may do him some good and the game is ideal for getting some low risk but good experience for Long, Mooney and or Church and if Lita has the right attitude reintegrating him back into the squad.

Why is it a dumb question? You said yourself you'd rather try someone else. I bet there are a few people who'd rather he didn't play.

Personally I hope he doesn't, I don't want some Cardiff reserve player crunching into him and taking him out for the rest of the season.

[SpaceCruiser]

He will certainly have benefitted from playing in the cup games over the last 12 months or so. No problem with that, I just think he might've benefitted just as much, if not more, by playing behind a selection much closer to our first choice team or by taking part in a few league games along the way when Marcus was struggling with form or fitness (Marcus played the first game of the season without having any proper first team action if I remember rightly - that might've been a good time to play our fully fit second choice keeper if he was deemed good enough for the first team cup side).

And didn't Marcus keep a clean sheet in the first game, thus earning us a point?

[Ian Royal]

The main problem with that, is that as far as I can tell (and this certainly applies to me) no one arguing we aren't devaluing the cup considers cup games meaningless.

That's something that people on your side of the arguing are attributing to us.

OK, ignore that bit as it was only in there to emphasis the way the club is treating the games and not as a direct quote of anyone posting on here. How does that present a 'main problem' with the rest of my views though?

From my point of view the rest of the post stands as we're treating the games as less important by fielding weaker teams and I've answered the original points raised byt Sun Tzu with how I think the manager should address them.

Ok, this has got quite twisty and turny.

Simply: Playing a "strongest" team for me is fine, playing a rotated team is also fine. I'll give you that team is generally weaker on paper as well, though there are too many factors to take into account to say that it definitely is for the match itself and the games we've had prove IMO that we don't do any worse than we could reasonably expect with the "strongest" team.

I completely disagree that putting out a rotated squad in any way devalues the cups. Or that we don't take the seriously. You have to have priorities and the League HAS to come first. If we were sitting between 10th and 16th I'd be all for maximising our chances in the cup to the detriment of the league. But I'd rather get the best we can across the board and for the future, which means taking the cup seriously and trying to get as far as possible, without threatening our league form and by helping to keep squad morale and those outside the first 11 as ready to step in, in the league as possible.

When you look at the changes we make for Cardiff, a significant number of players brought in will be players who could easily and have played in our first 11.

Players (in all probability) like Bikey, Lita, Pearce, Karacan, Murty, Matejovsky, NHunt, Long, Henry & Convey.

[SpaceCruiser]

Personally I hope he doesn't, I don't want some Cardiff reserve player crunching into him and taking him out for the rest of the season.

Yeah, I still hate that Carpenter bloke, what a bastard.

[Hoop Blah]

He will certainly have benefitted from playing in the cup games over the last 12 months or so. No problem with that, I just think he might've benefitted just as much, if not more, by playing behind a selection much closer to our first choice team or by taking part in a few league games along the way when Marcus was struggling with form or fitness (Marcus played the first game of the season without having any proper first team action if I remember rightly - that might've been a good time to play our fully fit second choice keeper if he was deemed good enough for the first team cup side).

And didn't Marcus keep a clean sheet in the first game, thus earning us a point?

Yes he did.

My point was that, if Federici was deemed good enough for the cup side, and we don't field weakened teams in the cup because everyone is as good as everyone else, then surely we wouldn't have played Marcus without practically any match practice for the all important first league game.

[rabidbee]

The quote I can find is

We're not going to win the FA Cup and I don't care about it, to be honest. I care about staying in the Premier League, as does everybody at this club.

Our Premier League status isn't protected by winning the FA Cup and it's a simple as that. It's a fantastic competition and perhaps one day we'll be in a position where we can compete for it, but not now.

That makes it pretty clear his and the club's attitude to the FA Cup.

Just as paranoids sometimes do have enemies, the Daily Mirror's attacks on Reading FC sometimes are justified.

I agree with Kitson 100%, even if I am going tomorrow. It'd be nice to go further in the cup, but as we simply won't win it it will be a distraction. As for the article, it was hardly a rant, rather a quite measured piece; that said, there have been occassions when teams have gone far in the competition and been relegated, which a balanced article might have mentioned.

Edit: Can't be bothered to work this out properly, but the Boro team that was relegated in 1997 (partly as the result of a 3-point deduction) reached both cup finals. Whether or not they would have gone down without the deduction, reaching the finals didn't help their league form much. (Incidentally, the deduction was because the club pulled out of a game without permission, rather than field a team of kids, because they had so many injuries at the time. Had they fielded the weakened team, they wouldn't have had the points deducted. Kind of ironic.)

[Forbury Lion]

I wish all cup competitions were knockout cups from the start, that will reduce the fixture list and make each one have meaning.

If winning the FA Cup and League Cup resulted in a Champions League spot at the expense of the 3rd and 4th place league placings you will soon see clubs taking it seriously.

I also question whether we should do away with the league cup and just have the FA Cup.

[OLLIE KEARNS]

I wish all cup competitions were knockout cups from the start, that will reduce the fixture list and make each one have meaning.

If winning the FA Cup and League Cup resulted in a Champions League spot at the expense of the 3rd and 4th place league placings you will soon see clubs taking it seriously.

I also question whether we should do away with the league cup and just have the FA Cup.

I loved the FA Cup as a kid and am greatly saddened by it's recent demise. I would love to see a system whereby Prem teams were awared 1 league point if they made the QF, 2 if they made the SF and 3 if they made the final. Total not cumulative. Champ teams could be similar but start with 1 point for reaching Rnd 5 and still having a maximum of 3 for SF / Final. No need to go beyond Champ because revenuse is key to lower league sides in any case.
This would almost guarentee teams putting out their best sides in order to try to progress in the competition.

Never gonna happen but it would breathe life into the greatest cup competition (well it used to be )in the world.

[brendywendy]

couldnt care less

looking forward to seeing the fringe players get their chance to impress

[Sun Tzu]

From my point of view the rest of the post stands as we're treating the games as less important by fielding weaker teams and I've answered the original points raised byt Sun Tzu with how I think the manager should address them.

Surely we're treating the cup as less important because it IS less important !

However there is a massive difference between it being LESS important and it being UN important.

By the only real measure that matters we have treated the cup with every respect, it is only by a fairly theoretical measure that we could be accused of disrespect. Are teams who apparantly pick their strongest side but lose to lower opposition disrespecting it more than teams who pick a changed side who then go on to give a superior team a hard game ?

[Y25]

I think we will lose tomorrow as we will field a weakened team. Cardiff got to last years final nuff said.

[Mr Angry]

I love it; journo having as pop at "little" Reading - again, yet unwilling to say that the demise of the FA cup was down to Man Utd and the FA themselves who allowed Man Utd to not field a team one season! Of course, if he stated that, Sir Alex might get angry with him and not speak to him again....so he doesn't.

As for the FA Cup, unless the winners get a Champions League spot, no-one will give a toss UNLESS/UNTIL they get to the last 8; but of course, the Premier League aren't prepared to sacrifice one of their slots for it.

Naturally those of our fans who seem to prefer to wallow in their own self loathing will leap on this as another example of how sh1t we really are (plastics, no history, not enough "real" fans blah blah blah ad nueseum) but most of us think so what; the rewards for promotion far outweigh the prize for getting to the 4th round, and as far as I'm concerned, if SSC wants to give squad players a run out, I totally support him.

[brendywendy]

i thought it was up to the fa to distribute the champions league spots as they saw fit.


personally i think fa cup, carling cup and prem should get one each and thats it

[Sun Tzu]

i thought it was up to the fa to distribute the champions league spots as they saw fit.


personally i think fa cup, carling cup and prem should get one each and thats it

Wouldn't it be pointless to just not bother using the 4th spot though ?

[brendywendy]

i thought it was up to the fa to distribute the champions league spots as they saw fit.


personally i think fa cup, carling cup and prem should get one each and thats it

Wouldn't it be pointless to just not bother using the 4th spot though ?

johnsons paint trophy winners?

[Platypuss]

You can argue the minutae of weakened all you like, but the simple fact of the matter is we DO take the cup seriously and we DO NOT devalue it by not playing the same team as we might in the league.

Just because you think it's a fact, Ian, it doesn't make it so.

[SCIAG]

Our "weakened" sides have:

1. Beaten our closest rivals in our league (Sheffield United, 05-06)
2. Defeated a side a division above us and taken another to a replay (West Brom and Brum, 05-06)
3. Put three past Liverpool- can't remember who we knocked out on the way (06-07)
4. Taken Man United to a replay and coming within the width of a crossbar to taking them to penalties (06-07)
5. Put two past Liverpool and were only beaten by a hattrick from the greatest striker on the face of the planet (07-08)
6. Taken Spurs to a replay, narrowly beaten, our side was full of internationals (07-08)
7. Forced penalties against Stoke after a masterclass from Henry (08-09)

In all 7 occaisions when we have fielded "weakened" sides, they have been knocked out by Premier League opposition- Arsenal, Birmingham (then a top flight side), Liverpool twice, Man United, Spurs and Stoke.

QED.