Perspective

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bcubed
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Re: Perspective

by bcubed » 13 Feb 2011 19:48

Hoop Blah
bcubed We could easily have beaten Cardiff and drawn with Norwich. The fact that we didn't is as much down to bad luck as anything


What a load of rubbish. It wasn't down to bad luck at all, it was down to getting sloppy and giving away silly goals.

Not giving away as many of those goals, and taking advantage of more opportunities that come their way at crucial times (Bellamy's free kick vs Harte's against QPR for example) is why the likes of QPR, Norwich and Cardiff are where they are and we're sat in the middle of a pretty average league.


Sorry you feel like that

I am not looking at our overall position - we deserve to be were we are as the team is not good enough in many departments
But any individual game can be decided by luck - we were unlucky to concede v Cardiff and I think did more than enough to deseve a draw against Norwich (on another day we would have got the point)

My point is you can't say that luck doesn't play a part or that it equals out over the season

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Re: Perspective

by Forest Gump » 13 Feb 2011 20:04

You make your own luck by taking chances. As a club Reading are too cautious (unambitious) despite the continued bollox we here from the management.

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Re: Perspective

by Hoop Blah » 13 Feb 2011 20:22

bcubed, what was the luck in those games?

We could've got more yes, but we didn't because we weren't quite good enough.

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Re: Perspective

by PEARCEY » 13 Feb 2011 20:23

bcubed
Hoop Blah
bcubed We could easily have beaten Cardiff and drawn with Norwich. The fact that we didn't is as much down to bad luck as anything


What a load of rubbish. It wasn't down to bad luck at all, it was down to getting sloppy and giving away silly goals.

Not giving away as many of those goals, and taking advantage of more opportunities that come their way at crucial times (Bellamy's free kick vs Harte's against QPR for example) is why the likes of QPR, Norwich and Cardiff are where they are and we're sat in the middle of a pretty average league.


Sorry you feel like that

I am not looking at our overall position - we deserve to be were we are as the team is not good enough in many departments
But any individual game can be decided by luck - we were unlucky to concede v Cardiff and I think did more than enough to deseve a draw against Norwich (on another day we would have got the point)

My point is you can't say that luck doesn't play a part or that it equals out over the season



You also create your own luck. Besides we've had our share of luck. Lucky to beat Derby,lucky Holt was sent off for Norwich at our place etc etc.

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Re: Perspective

by bcubed » 13 Feb 2011 22:15

Hoop Blah bcubed, what was the luck in those games?

We could've got more yes, but we didn't because we weren't quite good enough.


The luck that goes against you when officials decisons don't go in your favour
A free kick given when it probably shouldn't have been; a penalty not given
Shots just missing or just saved when on another day they go in

Over a few seasons luck may even out and you can certainly "earn" your luck, but in an individual game, results are not always decided by being good enough or not - luck plays a part. That's all I am saying


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Re: Perspective

by Snowball » 13 Feb 2011 22:25

Mr Angry The last 3 games have shown that you can post as many stats, focus on as many trends, consider how much having a certain goal difference at this stage of the season relates to where you finally finish in the League, and it all means - as I and many others - have said before - absolutely nothing when your team come against teams that are better than you where it matters, on the field of play.


Not so. Until recently our stats included playing more or less every club once. Those same stats have fairly clearly showed that we were winning against teams in the lower two thirds and not beating teams in the top six. or do you, dearest, dispute that?

Our stats suggested that we'd finish on 69 points. That was almost certainly not going to be enough. BUT.

The "BUT" is that our stats included (a) a poor start (7 points dropped from the first 12 points), included (b) a time when no striker could score a goal in open play, and (c) the first half of the season involved us playing without a dominant midfielder and playing mostly 451 which clearly didn't suit our main striker.

(a) We overcame the bad start and picked up extra point to get us up to better than 1.5 ppg
(b) Hunt started scoring, Church started scoring, and most particularly Long started scoring and now is in the form of his life.
(c) We signed Elwood and were able to settle in 442.

Elwood playing is still undefeated, and if we maintain the total "ppg" (2.09) he has so far achieved (15 games) we should finish on 73 points PLUS anything we get from the Sheffield game.
If you ignore the cup games then his ppg is fractionally lower (1.89) and we'd then end up on 70 points plus what we get from Sheffield.

Our main problem has been against top six sides. There are 12 games against the top six and we have already played ten of those. That is hardly "trivial". Our position looks a little worse than it is because, close-together we have played games where it was always likely we would get few point. We do not have to play QPR again (2 defeats) We do not have to play Swansea again (2 defeats) We do not have to play Cardiff or Norwich again (9 points dropped).

Our record against the others in this league is EXCELLENT = P20 W10 D7 L3 40-22 GD18 37 Points from 20 games = 1,85 ppg (Many of those WITHOUT Elwood

That means we ought to reasonably expect RFC to get 1.85 ppg in the next 16 games. That would give us 73 points. The variables are (a) Elwood isn't playing at Sheffield and we have two top six games left (and Karacan out for three games)... There is the little matter of confidence, too. None of the last four results individually is a bad result, but as a block of 4 it could damge confidence.


Its equally rubbish to bleat about who those 3 games were against; that suggest that for all the pseudo-scientific BS, the stats king didn't factor in relative strengths of opponents!!!! How flawed does THAT make all of his previous postings?


Don't be a moron. It is YOU who is making the basic error. You won't find a post from me saying something like "We've averaged 1.5 ppg so far and "THEREFORE" we will get 6 points from Hull-Cardiff-QPR-Norwich."

That isn't how it works. This block (February's games) started with Cardiff and was Cardiff-QPR-Norwich-Sheffield-Watford-Millwall-Palace. The question is NOT "will we beat Cardiff?" It's will we get 10 or 11 points from these SEVEN games? Always was that. A win at Cardiff or draws from QPR or Norwich and life would be easier. Now it's really tough, but it's POSSIBLE for us to get 13 from the 7 (DLLWWWW) (promotion form) or 11 DLLWWDW. And that's how to judge it. Not knee-jerking because we failed (very narrowly) not to WDD against three excellent sides) but what happens in THE MONTH. Where will we be with 12 games to go?

If we are not on 50+ at the end of February we've made it nigh on impossible, meaning we need a minimum of 8 points from the next four games. That's NOT good, not great, but we'd still probably only need 2 ppg for the rest of the season. We need to stop the rot immediately, of course, and that really means winning at Sheffield (4 points from 4 games) then winning at home (7 points from 5 games, and back on track.) Then we need to win one of the remaining two games.


As Weybridge has said - in 3 games Snowball has gone from posting how the trends suggest we will get 3rd or 4th, (as did the GD, as did the position of the Moon relative to Uranus), to now saying that unless we win the next game, all bets are off (which, ironically, is equally as stupid; whats to say that after a defeat to Shef Utd, we then win 5 or 6 games out of 7 and suddenly all bets are "on" again?). Unbelievable.


I posted that the trend line pointed to 3rd/4th. I didn't say I believed we'd make 3rd/4th

The change isn't "unbelievable" OR illogical. It's common sense. We were averaging a little over 1.5 ppg, probably not quite enough. We had no room for error. We have to be on 1.5 ppg for the season with six games left to have ANY chance. That is we'd need to be on 60 points with 18 left to play for.

As the season-left gets shorter and shorter every dropped point becomes a bigger deal. So why "MUST" we win at Sheffield?

Say we lose. We will then have 15 games and even if we average 2 points per game (better than QPR's season to date) we'd finish on 72 points, which might not be enough. More importantly we would be looking at a horrible run of DDLLL and confidence would be shot. I have said we had to win at EITHER Norwich or Sheffield.

There's no "moving goalposts". It's re-assessing the requirements based on the latest knowledge.

IMO we need to W6 D2 of our home games, and win at Sheffield, Scunthorpe, Palace, Coventry (32 Points taking us to 74) and get some more points if we can from Barnsley, Ipswich, Forest, Leeds.

It will be VERY difficult to beat Watford, Leicester and Millwall at the MadStad but we must have a decent chance of beating Preston, Derby, Sheffield, Portsmouth, Boro.

Yes I know, THEORETICALLY we could lose our next 5 then win 11 on the trot and end up on 75, but I prefer the real world.

Start with a win at Sheffield, manage to beat Watford. Then, suddenly We have W2 D1 L2 in 5 (7 points) and we are two points above Watford, with a better GD.
Then beat Millwall. I am NOT saying we will do that but IF we do, that will be 10 points from 6 games in February and we've hurt two rivals. Even
a draw at Palace (11 points in Feb) would look OK then, but a fourth win (13 from 7) and we'd look really, really on fire.

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Re: Perspective

by Snowball » 13 Feb 2011 22:36

On Luck.

A few hundred years ago I was a TV engineer and used to get a lot of free time
and I'd go watch Newport County training, got to know players and manager
very well.

We finished a season OK and then started the next getting loads of 1-0, 2-0 wins
and I was chatting to a few of the players about "How much better we were playing"

To a man they said they were playing WORSE than the previous season but they
were getting every bit of luck going and long may it continue.


On OUR Luck

I doubt very much if God has it in for any particular club, but OF COURSE one club
can fall foul of the odds. Ask any statistician. There is no law of averages. There is
no "law" that says because you concede four unlucky/dodgy penalties you will get
awarded four later in the season. Things "evening out" is BUNKUM, just like if there
have just been ten consecutive reds on a "straight" roulette wheel. It is still 50/50
that it will be red or black next spin.

Luck only partly equals errors. We have given away a lot of gifts this year and a week or so ago
I listed them and asked "Name the goals WE have been gifted."

Have WE had a dozy back-pass like Mills gave Norwich?
Has an opponent keeper kicked the ball up the ass of a defender for the ball to drop to Shane's feet (Forest)
Have we had a keeper kick the ball straight to Noel Hunt who then scores? (Cardiff)
Have we had a defender fail to do a routine shadow the ball out of play like Zurab at Preston?
Has an opposition player done what Harte did v Hull?

We have had a LOT of very good pens turned down, some blatant. Watford, Leeds, Norwich etc.

Have we got away with the same amount? I actually DO think we are a bit unlucky this season.

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Re: Perspective

by Arch » 13 Feb 2011 23:19

Snowball Our record against the others in this league is EXCELLENT = P20 W10 D7 L3 40-22 GD18 37 Points from 20 games = 1,85 ppg (Many of those WITHOUT Elwood

That means we ought to reasonably expect RFC to get 1.85 ppg in the next 16 games.

You'll probably accuse me of playing semantics again, but this doesn't ring quite right for two reasons. One is, the "others" are teams outside the top six, right? We only have fourteen games against them, not sixteen, plus Forest and Leeds once each, so the prediction is modestly watered down. The other reason is that there is no spell of ten games at any time this season where we have averaged more than 1.7 ppg; so it's a big ask that we might "reasonably expect" 1.85 from here on (or even 1.8 adjusted for point 1). What I would say is that our points against teams outside the top six gives us some relevant evidence about a return in that kind of range, but there are other factors that count against.

In the "how many points" thread, I voted 68. I'm sticking with that.

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Re: Perspective

by Elmer Park » 14 Feb 2011 00:35

Snowball On OUR Luck
Luck only partly equals errors. We have given away a lot of gifts this year and a week or so ago
I listed them and asked "Name the goals WE have been gifted."
We have had a LOT of very good pens turned down, some blatant. Watford, Leeds, Norwich etc.
Have we got away with the same amount? I actually DO think we are a bit unlucky this season.


On the subject of those individual errors in my view I agree we have made more silly defensive errors than our opponents.Hull gifted us our goal at the KC but that is the only one that springs to mind at the moment but this is nothing to do with luck which to be fair may be what you are saying Snowball.

As for refereeing decisions I am reluctant to comment as I know fans of quite a few teams and they all believe they have had the worse end of controversial decisions and most struggle to remember any decisions that went for them. I too suffer from this syndrome and to be honest can only specifically remember the penalty shout Doncaster had up there and the one West Brom had which was of course in a Cup match but our opponents fans would probably come up with a few more. I hate the phrase 'these things even themselves out' though because they don't so we may well have had the worst of the controversial ones.

I think the cliche about where you are in the table is where you deserve to be is pretty much true however. I believe that about Reading now and will almost certainly still believe that at the end of the season.


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Re: Perspective

by weybridgewanderer » 14 Feb 2011 01:07

Snowball Yes I know, THEORETICALLY we could lose our next 5 then win 11 on the trot and end up on 75, but I prefer the real world.

Start with a win at Sheffield, manage to beat Watford. Then, suddenly We have W2 D1 L2 in 5 (7 points) and we are two points above Watford, with a better GD.
Then beat Millwall. I am NOT saying we will do that but IF we do, that will be 10 points from 6 games in February and we've hurt two rivals. Even
a draw at Palace (11 points in Feb) would look OK then, but a fourth win (13 from 7) and we'd look really, really on fire.


I agree, but as you say, I prefer to live in the real world.

We have not been consistent enough to win 3 on the bounce, in the league, all season, never mind 4.

I hope we do but I see no reason why that level of cosnistency should start now.

This is why I have consistently said I do not believe we will make the play offs while you continue to tell us that theoretically we could finish anywhere between 12th and 3rd.

I accept I could be wrong, had we won 1 drawn 2 of the last 3 I might have started to believe. if we go on a run of 4 wins and then a draw then I may start to believe again.

You may think I am a pessimist, a "doom monger", I just think I am realistic. Personally I think you are too optimistic and could do with a touch of reality.

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Re: Perspective

by weybridgewanderer » 14 Feb 2011 01:11

Snowball On OUR Luck
Have WE had a dozy back-pass like Mills gave Norwich?
Has an opponent keeper kicked the ball up the ass of a defender for the ball to drop to Shane's feet (Forest)
Have we had a keeper kick the ball straight to Noel Hunt who then scores? (Cardiff)
Have we had a defender fail to do a routine shadow the ball out of play like Zurab at Preston?
Has an opposition player done what Harte did v Hull?


This is not bad luck, these are errors. As you have nicely pointed out, there have been too many.

We have had a LOT of very good pens turned down, some blatant. Watford, Leeds, Norwich etc.

Have we got away with the same amount? I actually DO think we are a bit unlucky this season.


Every football fan in the country thinks that over the season more decisions went against them that for them.

I am sure Watford, Leeds and Norwich fans can point at a host of decisions that they feel went against them over the season. I haven't seen all 29ish games each of these teams have played so its hard to compare. Maybe you have?

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Re: Perspective

by Arch » 14 Feb 2011 02:34

weybridgewanderer You may think I am a pessimist, a "doom monger", I just think I am realistic.

Everyone, taking their own opinion to be true, believes themselves to be realistic. Saying "I am a realist" has the same cash value as saying "what I believe is true".

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Re: Perspective

by Mr Angry » 14 Feb 2011 10:16

Snowball

Your post proves my point; you assert a position, then find stats to back that position up. The more you feel that your stated position is threatened, the more stats you splurge out.

Football isn't a game played on a spreadsheet; whilst you can assess what has happened in previous games, they have pretty well Zero bearing on what will happen in the future because in football, there is no 100% predictability. As a fan, you judge from what you see, both with your team and the other teams in your Division, and you then come to a "gut feel" about how your team is doing, and how it will finish the season. In other words, its a game that is about feel and heart, not about sitting down with a calculator.

Thats the "real world" when it comes to football.

The season we got relegated from the Premier League, with 6 games to go, Fulham were dead and buried; yet they somehow get a miraculous win against (IIRC) Man City, then beat us at home for their first away win in nearly 2 years (that was 5 games to go) and end up surviving by the equivilent of 3 goals. How could stats and trends have predicted that? And thats because football is basically chaos theory played on turf.


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Re: Perspective

by Alan Partridge » 14 Feb 2011 11:07

What I don't really understand is most people accepted a mid table finish was most likely this season. Especially after Reading sold their best player and never replaced him.

Now to finish mid table it means you lose every now and then, so why the major outcry when that happens?

Reading's squad is a work in progress, it's a so near yet so far squad, in terms of there is some top end Championship quality there but not enough. They will win some games, but not enough consistently. That's why they're 12th, and it's why they will finish somewhere between 9th and 14th.

it won't take a lot for them to become a top 7 team, maybe that's where the frustration stems from but unfortunately Reading just aren't in the position to make those 3 or 4 top quality additions that will make them that team yet. Some of the younge rplayers another year down the line coupled with a few 'potential' signings is the way they are going to do things and the way they have to do things.

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Re: Perspective

by Gordons Cumming » 14 Feb 2011 11:12

Alan Partridge What I don't really understand is most people accepted a mid table finish was most likely this season. Especially after Reading sold their best player and never replaced him.

Now to finish mid table it means you lose every now and then, so why the major outcry when that happens?

Reading's squad is a work in progress, it's a so near yet so far squad, in terms of there is some top end Championship quality there but not enough. They will win some games, but not enough consistently. That's why they're 12th, and it's why they will finish somewhere between 9th and 14th.

it won't take a lot for them to become a top 7 team, maybe that's where the frustration stems from but unfortunately Reading just aren't in the position to make those 3 or 4 top quality additions that will make them that team yet. Some of the younge rplayers another year down the line coupled with a few 'potential' signings is the way they are going to do things and the way they have to do things.


Spot on.

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Re: Perspective

by Gordons Cumming » 14 Feb 2011 11:15

Arch The other reason is that there is no spell of ten games at any time this season where we have averaged more than 1.7 ppg; so it's a big ask that we might "reasonably expect" 1.85 from here on (or even 1.8 adjusted for point 1).



We managed to improve our points per game considerably at this same stage last season.

We managed it then, why not now?

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Re: Perspective

by Hoop Blah » 14 Feb 2011 11:29

bcubed
Hoop Blah bcubed, what was the luck in those games?

We could've got more yes, but we didn't because we weren't quite good enough.


The luck that goes against you when officials decisons don't go in your favour
A free kick given when it probably shouldn't have been; a penalty not given
Shots just missing or just saved when on another day they go in

Over a few seasons luck may even out and you can certainly "earn" your luck, but in an individual game, results are not always decided by being good enough or not - luck plays a part. That's all I am saying


I don't see most of that as luck. Even with officials giving or not giving decisions I tend to think a good side gets by inspite of them and will do enough during a game to reduce the impact of any decisions.

In the Cardiff example, we weren't unlucky to be playing so long after the alotted 4 or 5 minutes of time added on was up, and we weren't unlucky to concede a free kick (we didn't defend well enough to take the decision out of the refs hands), and we certainly weren't unlucky to see Bellamy find the back of the net with his free kick (that's the quality he has - conversly we weren't unlucky when Harte basically duffed his QPR free kick into the wall).

Luck is an easy get out when you're getting results, or not, but it's usually down to something else. Granted you might get lucky if a clearance bounces off a defenders arse and sets up your forward for a tap in, or a ball rebounds off a post into your path and not 2 yards away, but you could argue that it's the anticipation and awareness of the players involved that's dictated that luck.

As Gary Player famously said, the harder I work the luckier I get!

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Re: Perspective

by Ian Royal » 14 Feb 2011 12:18

Gordons Cumming
Arch The other reason is that there is no spell of ten games at any time this season where we have averaged more than 1.7 ppg; so it's a big ask that we might "reasonably expect" 1.85 from here on (or even 1.8 adjusted for point 1).



We managed to improve our points per game considerably at this same stage last season.

We managed it then, why not now?

Three reasons:

Change of Manager
Liverpool effect
Previously we'd been playing well below our level, currently we're playing atour level.

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Re: Perspective

by bcubed » 14 Feb 2011 13:42

Hoop Blah
bcubed
Hoop Blah bcubed, what was the luck in those games?

We could've got more yes, but we didn't because we weren't quite good enough.


The luck that goes against you when officials decisons don't go in your favour
A free kick given when it probably shouldn't have been; a penalty not given
Shots just missing or just saved when on another day they go in

Over a few seasons luck may even out and you can certainly "earn" your luck, but in an individual game, results are not always decided by being good enough or not - luck plays a part. That's all I am saying


I don't see most of that as luck. Even with officials giving or not giving decisions I tend to think a good side gets by inspite of them and will do enough during a game to reduce the impact of any decisions.

In the Cardiff example, we weren't unlucky to be playing so long after the alotted 4 or 5 minutes of time added on was up, and we weren't unlucky to concede a free kick (we didn't defend well enough to take the decision out of the refs hands), and we certainly weren't unlucky to see Bellamy find the back of the net with his free kick (that's the quality he has - conversly we weren't unlucky when Harte basically duffed his QPR free kick into the wall).

Luck is an easy get out when you're getting results, or not, but it's usually down to something else. Granted you might get lucky if a clearance bounces off a defenders arse and sets up your forward for a tap in, or a ball rebounds off a post into your path and not 2 yards away, but you could argue that it's the anticipation and awareness of the players involved that's dictated that luck.

As Gary Player famously said, the harder I work the luckier I get!


On this basis the team that wins a game is the team that deserves to win, every time
Simply not true every time because luck can play a part

We will have to agree to disagree

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Re: Perspective

by weybridgewanderer » 14 Feb 2011 13:56

some games you win that you didn't deserve to

other games you hsould have won but didn't

i don't always think its "luck" though

Dominate a team for 65 minutes, but the "final ball" is always poor, then they run up the park and nick one.

Were you unlucky or poor

Our 0-0 at old trafford a few seasons ago, were we lucky or unlucky? Were we good or poor

Were united lucky or unlucky? were wthey good or poor

That game I seem to remember we defended well and were unlucky not to nick it at the end.

was united view on the game that they were poor and lucky we didn't nick it? or sis they also think they were good and just unlucky not to score?
Last edited by weybridgewanderer on 14 Feb 2011 13:58, edited 1 time in total.

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