Are The Youngsters Being Frozen Out?

[Ian Royal]

Many players only make it after stepping down and working back up. Are Arsenal a failure because they didn't play Sidwell and Harper rather than selling them just because thry made it in the PL eventually? Of course not.

Some players need to develop through playing time at a lower level for several years. And they often aren't going to achieve that through loans. And some are good enough but don't fit the style or eyhos of the team.

The point of an academy is not to bring through every talented player who could make it. It's to have a pool of talent available for when you need it. And to have a pool of talent to sell to self fund.

A successful Academy is not one that produces an entire team, or half a team. It's one that on average brings one / two players into the first team squad a year. We're well on track there. And it's way too early in the season to say youngsters aren't getting a chance.

It's a shame that we've brought in quite so many forwards blocking the way of Fosu, Stacey and Tanner. But they're all getting professional game time and all still have the option of making it. And we desperately needed those reinforcements.

Cooper showed he wasn't ready to play week in week out at this level. He needs to develop more and he may do that with training and games as cover. I have my doubts if he really fits.

The Academy is not being relegated to an irrelevance, it's just not being relied upon as a source of players immediately.

I still fancy more than a couple of Stacey, Tanner, Fosu, Samuel, Watson, Kuhl, Kelly, Hyam, Dickie, Keown and Novakovich to make 50+ appearances for the club over the next two to three seasons. And that would be a big success. I expect most of them to have decent league careers. Which would also be a success.

[3points]

If you look at the squad written down, you begin to realise it's just far too bloated

I would argue once you hit the age of 21, you'd want to be playing regular first-team football, and the 29 players contracted to Reading that fall into this category are:

Ali Al-Habsi
Anssi Jaakkola
Jonathan Bond
Stuart Moore
Chris Gunter
Jake Cooper
Paul McShane
Jordan Obita
Liam Moore
Tyler Blackett
Danzell Gravenberch
Shane Griffin
Niall Keown
Sean Long
Joey van den Berg
George Evans
Roy Beerens
John Swift
Gareth McCleary
Callum Harriott
Sandro Wieser
Stephen Quinn
Danny Williams
Craig Tanner
Paolo Hurtado
Joseph Mendes
Deniss Rakels
Dominic Samuel
Yann Kermorgant

taking the above squad of 29 it is easy to actually reduce that to a true playing squad. There's 4 keepers, therefore 25 outfield players. Then you have Keown, Long and Griffin who haven't really touched the first time with the odd exception, making it 22 outfield players. Then remove Hurtado as he will never play for Reading again and you're down to 21 with Tanner on loan and Rakels out for several months. Further you have Samuel and Gravenberch who have played about 2 games between them.

In reality that's 17 senior outfield players to be supported by the U21 squad. I think it's about right. You'll get a few more injuries and suspensions as the season progresses meaning more of the youngsters will get match day squad and perhaps first team game experience. McShane has never played more than bout 10 consecutive games for us due to minor injuries, Joey will get suspended again, as may Gunter, Williams, Obita, Evans who are all probe to a few yellow cards

[Royal Rother]

I crave success for Reading FC but in recent years we've signed so many bang average players who have zero affiliation to the club on odd whims; meanwhile youngsters who have been with the club for 10 years and have real untapped potential get shunted around the loan system.

Sadly until there is a change in philosophy (you lied to us Brian Tevreden) our own young players will not be given a proper chance to develop at this club.

They'll show their potential elsewhere and either get bored stiff waiting for a chance at RFC and run down their contract so they can go on a free, or come back, play a dozen times for us before their true potential gets spotted by a bigger club and we sell them for a lovely profit.

I really really hope it's not going to be like that but my faith in the model of academy / self sufficiency is waning fast.

Watching a bunch of mercenary types develop a new style of playing under a superstar ex player is all well and good (I really hope it works) but how much better would it feel if half a dozen (and there are definitely half a dozen RFC Academy graduates at the club who WILL become Champ+ players) of our own players involved?

Saying they are not ready is a fcuking cop-out as far as I am concerned. The Director of Football and Manager simply don't believe in their own words enough, or their coaching team's abilities sufficiently, to take a bit of a gamble with the young players. There's this weird mentality in football that if you bring in a load of new players somehow you are giving it a better "go" than if you try to develop what you've already got in your ranks.

It's all bollox.

[Sutekh]

All a bit of a contrast to Barnsley actually, their current policy is NOT to sign players over 24 years old.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

Sadly until there is a change in philosophy (you lied to us Brian Tevreden) our own young players will not be given a proper chance to develop at this club.

This.

I might accept it if they came out like, "we want to stay in the Championship, and our plan to do that is sign experienced Football League players," but that's not what they said

http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/brian-tevreden-reading-fcs-technical-11674895

He's literally gone out and done what he said he wouldn't

Yes. I would rather we put a youngster in and develop him. It makes no sense to bring someone in who isn’t going to play.

I know results are very important but we have an academy, so we have to use that academy. I believe if you have a good mix of academy players and experienced players - it can work.

Signing Gaston Campi would have made no sense. He would have been blocking the pathway for good youngsters. Rob Dickie, Dominic Hyam, Zac Jules. We have Coops as well who has been playing in the first-team. Campi is 25 years old, but Coops is 21. He’s already played a lot of games in the Championship. It would make no sense to sign him.

So what changed Brian?

[Sutekh]

Sadly until there is a change in philosophy (you lied to us Brian Tevreden) our own young players will not be given a proper chance to develop at this club.

This.

I might accept it if they came out like, "we want to stay in the Championship, and our plan to do that is sign experienced Football League players," but that's not what they said

http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/brian-tevreden-reading-fcs-technical-11674895

He's literally gone out and done what he said he wouldn't

Yes. I would rather we put a youngster in and develop him. It makes no sense to bring someone in who isn’t going to play.

I know results are very important but we have an academy, so we have to use that academy. I believe if you have a good mix of academy players and experienced players - it can work.

Signing Gaston Campi would have made no sense. He would have been blocking the pathway for good youngsters. Rob Dickie, Dominic Hyam, Zac Jules. We have Coops as well who has been playing in the first-team. Campi is 25 years old, but Coops is 21. He’s already played a lot of games in the Championship. It would make no sense to sign him.

So what changed Brian?

1. cooper playing like a giraffe on stilts
2. not actually being the manager

[Ian Royal]

Sadly until there is a change in philosophy (you lied to us Brian Tevreden) our own young players will not be given a proper chance to develop at this club.

This.

I might accept it if they came out like, "we want to stay in the Championship, and our plan to do that is sign experienced Football League players," but that's not what they said

http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/brian-tevreden-reading-fcs-technical-11674895

He's literally gone out and done what he said he wouldn't

Yes. I would rather we put a youngster in and develop him. It makes no sense to bring someone in who isn’t going to play.

I know results are very important but we have an academy, so we have to use that academy. I believe if you have a good mix of academy players and experienced players - it can work.

Signing Gaston Campi would have made no sense. He would have been blocking the pathway for good youngsters. Rob Dickie, Dominic Hyam, Zac Jules. We have Coops as well who has been playing in the first-team. Campi is 25 years old, but Coops is 21. He’s already played a lot of games in the Championship. It would make no sense to sign him.

So what changed Brian?

Moore was considerably better than Campi or Cooper?

[maffff]

It's nice having a defence where you don't feel you'll concede every attack and don't expect some foolish error like Cooper has in him.

Can't fault Moore as a signing, not the same level of risk as Campi could have been and has experience of success at this level.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

Well Liam Moore was probably our flagship signing

Since that interview, we've signed Yakou Méïte, Callum Harriott, Sandro Wieser, Tyler Blackett and Moore, and Liam's the only one who's gone straight into the first XI and stayed there

You could argue Blackett has genuinely improved the team, although he is replacing our only Academy regular in Obita

[3points]

Well Liam Moore was probably our flagship signing

Since that interview, we've signed Yakou Méïte, Callum Harriott, Sandro Wieser, Tyler Blackett and Moore, and Liam's the only one who's gone straight into the first XI and stayed there

You could argue Blackett has genuinely improved the team, although he is replacing our only Academy regular in Obita

blackett has also been signed as a centre back too. Reckon if McShane gets injured we will see Moore and Blackett together as Stam won't want to play Cooper unless he really has to

[Nameless]

All a bit of a contrast to Barnsley actually, their current policy is NOT to sign players over 24 years old.

Of our signings this summer how many are over 24 ?

[maffff]

All a bit of a contrast to Barnsley actually, their current policy is NOT to sign players over 24 years old.

Of our signings this summer how many are over 24 ?

Jaakkola
Van den Berg
Beerens
Mendes

All others are 23 or younger.

[Hoop Blah]

They are good footballers, that's why the club have kept them on the books and offered them professional contracts, and in the right system they could flourish at Championship level just like former youngsters that weren't good enough like Antonio, MacDonald, or League Cup finalist Carl McHugh, or even World Cup appearing Oliver Bozanic proved with what they achieved once they left Reading and were given the opportunity to play

Blimey, if the extent of our mistakes are McHugh, MacDonald and Bozanic then we're doing a great job at selecting who to keep and who to let go!!!

[From Despair To Where?]

Everyone knows that the youngsters have potential but I honestly believe the way to do it is to get them out on loan, playing regular competitive football and monitoring their progress.

With all the returning loans and departures , our squad was threadbare in the summer. It's one thing introducing one or two youngsters per season but without making signings, we were relying on 4 or 5 youngsters in key positions.

Fosu had a great cameo at Derby but is he ready for a 20 game run in the Championship? It's a big gamble. Likewise Stacey and Tanner.

HRK, Karacan, Pearce, Sig, Tshibola, all players who benefited from numerous loans when arguably they may have been ready for 1st team football. In other circumstances, I don't think Cooper would have made half the first team appearances that he has. He's been thrown into the first team of a poorly performing club due to injuries and he's very raw. He would have benefitted massively from spells on loan and I think he's suffering for it. That's not his fault but I can see why Stam doesn't think he's worthy of a regular starting place.

Obita is another I think would have benefitted from more time out on loan had the circumstances been different. At 16, he was being talked about in the company of the likes of Luke Shaw and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. Great first season but he hasn't progressed., stuck in a poorly performing team, playing out of position and no competition for his place.

I believe Stam was right to bring in the players he did, a good mix of youth and experience and I think he's right to send players out on loan to learn the game and make their mistakes out of the spotlight of the Championship.

As DoF, Tevreden has a responsibility for the long term future of the club and if that means sending youngsters out on loan then so be it. It's where they are in 2 years that counts. Can you imagine the shit on here if Fosu had a 5 game run in the team and performed poorly? I honestly think the step up from League 2 to Championship is an easier one to make than from the U23s. The footballing ability isn't in doubt, it's the day to day ability to handle first team football that is and you can learn that just as well in League 2 as in the Championship.

[tidus_mi2]

tbf of the players you mentioned, only Pearce had multiple loan spells, the rest had 2 loans, Tshibola only had 1.

[maffff]

They are good footballers, that's why the club have kept them on the books and offered them professional contracts, and in the right system they could flourish at Championship level just like former youngsters that weren't good enough like Antonio, MacDonald, or League Cup finalist Carl McHugh, or even World Cup appearing Oliver Bozanic proved with what they achieved once they left Reading and were given the opportunity to play

Blimey, if the extent of our mistakes are McHugh, MacDonald and Bozanic then we're doing a great job at selecting who to keep and who to let go!!!

Depends how far back you want to go:
Would you class Antonio in this category?
Adam Lockwood?
Connor Wickham (family reasons, went to Ipswich)
Charlie Austin (released as "too small" - we kept Church)
Daniel Carr had a contract at Huddersfield (then slipped back into non-league).
Alfie Mawson - he left to go to Brentford aged 16.
Ben Gladwin - left us aged 13 and went to Aldershot's academy, now at QPR (even had a spell at Reading Town!)
Doug Bergqvist - playing in the Allsvenskan
Radoslav Vasilev has been scoring for fun in Bulgaria (although spent most of last season injured), has some national caps too
Jonny Hayes - doing well for Aberdeen
Tom Hateley - floating around Scotland for a few years
Adam Mekki - doing well at Tranmere
Uche Ikpeazu - only joking, he's looked oxf*rd terrible at Cambridge since Watford released him.
Nam-Tae Hee and Ji Dong Won we could get work permits for but Ji had a spell at Sunderland and Nam had a good few years in France before going out to Saudi.

Then there are those that we had on trial but didn't sign, like e.g. Milik.

Some of them may have progressed with us given opportunity. However, given the academy is regularly churning out players that should have a league future we'll no doubt find some late developers that rise back up. MacDonald was nothing special in our academy - well done for him managing to get himself back up to this level, given he's like 24 what says he would have progressed as well if we'd kept him and loaned him out every season until he was ready? He'd have had to have followed the Michael Hector method of trying out every club in existence before settling into the first team here.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

The point I was trying to make is that classing youngsters as either 'not good enough' or 'Championship ready' isn't that simple, not that we should have kept every youngster ever just in case a few of them turned out alright

I notice we're unbeaten since I created this thread, which kind of makes my argument a bit redundant, I will continue my case when we start losing again

[Hoop Blah]

Blimey, if the extent of our mistakes are McHugh, MacDonald and Bozanic then we're doing a great job at selecting who to keep and who to let go!!!

Depends how far back you want to go:
Would you class Antonio in this category?
Adam Lockwood?
Connor Wickham (family reasons, went to Ipswich)
Charlie Austin (released as "too small" - we kept Church)
Daniel Carr had a contract at Huddersfield (then slipped back into non-league).
Alfie Mawson - he left to go to Brentford aged 16.
Ben Gladwin - left us aged 13 and went to Aldershot's academy, now at QPR (even had a spell at Reading Town!)
Doug Bergqvist - playing in the Allsvenskan
Radoslav Vasilev has been scoring for fun in Bulgaria (although spent most of last season injured), has some national caps too
Jonny Hayes - doing well for Aberdeen
Tom Hateley - floating around Scotland for a few years
Adam Mekki - doing well at Tranmere
Uche Ikpeazu - only joking, he's looked oxf*rd terrible at Cambridge since Watford released him.
Nam-Tae Hee and Ji Dong Won we could get work permits for but Ji had a spell at Sunderland and Nam had a good few years in France before going out to Saudi.

Then there are those that we had on trial but didn't sign, like e.g. Milik.

I think there's only really been Antonio and Austin that you could say have proven us wrong in letting them go, the rest of that list, and the original names Saaaaaaaaaam mentioned haven't gone on to do enough to think they'd have got a game here.

As you and many others have rightly said, it's all about them taking their opportunity however it presents itself. Be that taking 3 or 4 years via non-league to learn the game in a way they probably wouldn't have if they'd stayed here, or jumping ship to another club at this level like Ikpeazu did.

My point was, for what it's worth, that any of those players listed may have made it here and gone on to even bigger and better things if we'd given them a chance at the right time, but as it stands getting to a cup final with Bradford whilst being a firmly established League Two player (like McHugh) doesn't make him a Championship or Premier League standard player which is what we're looking at producing for our first team.

It's great to see how many of our Academy players go on to make a living out of football. As much as we want to produce players for our team the fact we can produce such volumes of professionals speaks volumes for the way Dolan had things running and must've been a big selling point when trying to secure talent under competition from other clubs.

[maffff]

I think there's only really been Antonio and Austin that you could say have proven us wrong in letting them go, the rest of that list, and the original names Saaaaaaaaaam mentioned haven't gone on to do enough to think they'd have got a game here.

As you and many others have rightly said, it's all about them taking their opportunity however it presents itself. Be that taking 3 or 4 years via non-league to learn the game in a way they probably wouldn't have if they'd stayed here, or jumping ship to another club at this level like Ikpeazu did.

My point was, for what it's worth, that any of those players listed may have made it here and gone on to even bigger and better things if we'd given them a chance at the right time, but as it stands getting to a cup final with Bradford whilst being a firmly established League Two player (like McHugh) doesn't make him a Championship or Premier League standard player which is what we're looking at producing for our first team.

It's great to see how many of our Academy players go on to make a living out of football. As much as we want to produce players for our team the fact we can produce such volumes of professionals speaks volumes for the way Dolan had things running and must've been a big selling point when trying to secure talent under competition from other clubs.

Couldn't agree more, and no doubt as our academy continues to improve we'll churn out even more footballers who make it in the professional leagues, away from us, or drop out into non-league before developing later.

We can't keep everyone but if we managed to get even a small proportion to progress through I'd be happy.

[P!ssed Off]

If they are good enough they will play.

Transfer policy is largely dictated by corruption sadly.

If Jose Mourinho's agent is going to make 5 million quid from Jose buying one of his players then Jose is far less likely to promote a kid from the academy.

Even on a lesser scale this is at play in the Championship. Jaap Stam's agent represents at least two of our Summer signings.

Our Thai transfer adviser gets a significant fee if we sign a random from the Polish league rather than promote Dominic Samuel.

Money leaks left, right and centre during the transfer window, and with 10 players in and 10 players out certain greedy bastards are raking it in.

Too many academy players and the trough runs empty.

As I was saying...