Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[Sutekh]

BBC report once again states that we have had ten points deducted this season. They have stated this so many times, I am starting to believe it.

The report has probably dropped through a wormhole from May 2024.

[tmesis]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

We must have saved at least the TV revenue on wages on Joao, Moore, Meite and Ince though? I suspect Dai is now putting in next to nothing.

[PieEater]

I don't understand how we've let all the academy players who've got into the first team and been decent - not have a contract after this season. We're literally letting money walk out the door when we should be selling these players to fund the academy.

[blythspartan]

I don't understand how we've let all the academy players who've got into the first team and been decent - not have a contract after this season. We're literally letting money walk out the door when we should be selling these players to fund the academy.

Sadly, I don’t think any decent academy players who have broken into the first team and made a positive impact will be wanting to extend their contracts with us.

[East Grinstead Royal]

BBC report once again states that we have had ten points deducted this season. They have stated this so many times, I am starting to believe it.

The report has probably dropped through a wormhole from May 2024.

I thought the same thing. Mind you, it is the third time in the last 3 or 4 weeks that the BBC have made this mistake. Their reports on Dai’s £20k fine and the pre-Christmas redundancies carried the same erroneous information. Somehow, I would have expected Dellor to have spotted this, but then again…

[YorkshireRoyal99]

So I decided to take a quick look at a few other L1 clubs and the coaches named on their Who's who? Page.

I looked at 5 or 6 clubs of different sizes and in terms of named coaches for first team, we are listing, on average 2 or 3 more coaches. Bolton were an anomaly but they list their Strengthening Coaches.

Until yesterday we had an Assistant Manager, Lead 1st Team coach & 1St team technical coach (and other key roles like GK coach). One could argue that no L1 club needs or should have those 3 roles. In fact no-one else does. Most have an assistant manager & maybe one more coach listed. Often the 2nd first team coach doubles up as an Academy coach.

No club I looked at had anyone named doing EN's role.

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

Yeah we did seem quite top heavy on staff by the looks of it compared to other clubs. Although moving your assistant manager on after a short amount of time doesn't exactly help, but if he was a high earner then it does make sense, but we will need another one somewhere along the. Eddie, basing purely on his job title alone, might have been one of the higher paid staff members.

[Stranded]

So I decided to take a quick look at a few other L1 clubs and the coaches named on their Who's who? Page.

I looked at 5 or 6 clubs of different sizes and in terms of named coaches for first team, we are listing, on average 2 or 3 more coaches. Bolton were an anomaly but they list their Strengthening Coaches.

Until yesterday we had an Assistant Manager, Lead 1st Team coach & 1St team technical coach (and other key roles like GK coach). One could argue that no L1 club needs or should have those 3 roles. In fact no-one else does. Most have an assistant manager & maybe one more coach listed. Often the 2nd first team coach doubles up as an Academy coach.

No club I looked at had anyone named doing EN's role.

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

Yeah we did seem quite top heavy on staff by the looks of it compared to other clubs. Although moving your assistant manager on after a short amount of time doesn't exactly help, but if he was a high earner then it does make sense, but we will need another one somewhere along the. Eddie, basing purely on his job title alone, might have been one of the higher paid staff members.

You just rename your Lead 1st Team coach as Assistant manager and job done.

[Clyde1998]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

The only way that level of expenditure is sustainable in League One would be if we were selling £4m+ worth of players each season. I doubt we could continuously achieve that whilst in League One, especially with clubs knowing our financial situation; I'm not sure we'd get £4m+ for our entire squad at the moment.

[Fezza]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

[ayjaydee]

So I decided to take a quick look at a few other L1 clubs and the coaches named on their Who's who? Page.

I looked at 5 or 6 clubs of different sizes and in terms of named coaches for first team, we are listing, on average 2 or 3 more coaches. Bolton were an anomaly but they list their Strengthening Coaches.

Until yesterday we had an Assistant Manager, Lead 1st Team coach & 1St team technical coach (and other key roles like GK coach). One could argue that no L1 club needs or should have those 3 roles. In fact no-one else does. Most have an assistant manager & maybe one more coach listed. Often the 2nd first team coach doubles up as an Academy coach.

No club I looked at had anyone named doing EN's role.

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

Yeah we did seem quite top heavy on staff by the looks of it compared to other clubs. Although moving your assistant manager on after a short amount of time doesn't exactly help, but if he was a high earner then it does make sense, but we will need another one somewhere along the. Eddie, basing purely on his job title alone, might have been one of the higher paid staff members.

You just rename your Lead 1st Team coach as Assistant manager and job done.

Still likely to have an effect on team morale. In most clubs the assistant manager is the conduit between the players and the manager. More one of the boys rather than a “gaffer” with a closer relationship with the players. It is the lack of continuity that will affect morale and performance.

[WestYorksRoyal]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

When Dai bought us in 2017, we still had parachute payments. Have we effectively been operating as a top Championship club since? If so this is all well overdue, sad as it is. And the timing is rubbish and will affect morale mid season.

[Fezza]

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

When Dai bought us in 2017, we still had parachute payments. Have we effectively been operating as a top Championship club since? If so this is all well overdue, sad as it is. And the timing is rubbish and will affect morale mid season.

Hadn't we secured a loan against the parachute payments in our first season out of the prem (13/14)? Pretty certain that Anton pocketed the money (loaned through Samuelson's company?), before selling us to the Thai's just as we were due to enter administration.

[Clyde1998]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

Some of the staffing costs costs for a Category One academy that aren't required for the lower categories include:

Each Club which operates a Category 1 Academy shall appoint an Academy Operations Manager, who shall be employed Full Time and shall have day-to-day responsibility for executive and operational issues within the Academy.

Each Club which operates an Academy shall employ as a minimum the number of Full Time coaches for each Development Phase in accordance with the Category of its Academy as set out in the following table:

Category; Foundation Phase (U9-U11); Youth Development Phase (U12-U16); Professional Development Phase (U17-U21)
Category 1; 2; 3; 3
Category 2; 1; 2; 2
Category 3; 1; 1; 2
Category 4; -; -; 2

Each Club which operates an Academy shall employ, either on a Full Time or Part Time basis, such goalkeeping coaches as are necessary to ensure that each Academy Player who is a goalkeeper receives the required hours of coaching set out in Rule 123, subject to the following minimum requirements:

• a Club operating a Category 1 Academy shall employ at least two Full Time goalkeeping coaches; and
• a Club operating a Category 2 Academy shall employ at least one Full Time goalkeeping coach.

In addition to the Senior Academy Physiotherapist referred to at Rule 102, each Club which operates a Category 1 Academy shall employ at least two Full Time physiotherapists

Each Club which operates a Category 1 Academy shall employ a minimum of three Full Time Performance Analysts.
Each Club which operates a Category 2 Academy shall employ a minimum of two Performance Analysts, one on a Full Time basis, and the other at least Part Time.

Each Club which operates a Category 1 Academy shall, in addition to the Head of Education, employ one Person Full Time to support the delivery of the Academy’s education programme.

Each Club which operates a Category 1 Academy shall employ one or more Academy Psychologist(s)

On these alone ten and a half (full-time equivalent) additional employees are required for a Category One academy when compared to a Category Two academy. Based on the median full-time UK salary (£35k p/a), that's £367.5k extra per year; I don't know that actual average salaries of employees in the relevant positions, but the chances are the costs are going to be higher than that. I imagine it could easily be between £500k and £1m per annum just for the staff required to be Category One over Category Two - without any additional costs associated with facilities, players, et al.

There are obviously benefits of having a Category One academy in regards to player development, not having good young players poached, etc. Realistically, however, Category One academies are really only financially viable for Premier League clubs and Championship clubs who have parachute payments or are among the highest 'natural' revenue generators - not for typical Championship clubs or lower.

[Sutekh]

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

When Dai bought us in 2017, we still had parachute payments. Have we effectively been operating as a top Championship club since? If so this is all well overdue, sad as it is. And the timing is rubbish and will affect morale mid season.

The club did not still have parachute payments in 2017. At the time of relegation in 12/13 parachute payments were for three years which were seasons 13/14, 14/15 and 15/16 so payments were long over in 2017. In addition AZ had taken out a loan from Vibrac against the parachute payments so the club never really had proper use of them (and Alf had to be sold to Cardiff in 2014 to pay bills) until SJM took control back and sorted the mess out before being able to find and sell to the Thais.

[Clyde1998]

This is the reason for the redundancies. Binning Cat One status would though harm the overall value of the club, thus the two first team coaches being laid off. I imagine we'll lose Cat One shortly as well. All a bit sad.

However this is exactly what we should be doing now it is evident that we are in L1 (at most) next season. You could make a very good case that our failure to cut our cloth to the league we were in after our last flirt with the Prem was the reason for our current shambles.

When Dai bought us in 2017, we still had parachute payments. Have we effectively been operating as a top Championship club since? If so this is all well overdue, sad as it is. And the timing is rubbish and will affect morale mid season.

The club did not still have parachute payments in 2017. At the time of relegation in 12/13 parachute payments were for three years which were seasons 13/14, 14/15 and 15/16 so payments were long over in 2017. In addition AZ had taken out a loan from Vibrac against the parachute payments so the club never really had proper use of them (and Alf had to be sold to Cardiff in 2014 to pay bills) until SJM took control back and sorted the mess out before being able to find and sell to the Thais.

It was four years at that point (two years at a higher rate; two years at a lower rate) - they ended in 2016-17:

[YorkshireRoyal99]

So whilst it stinks, it could be argued that the club are just bringing their staffing down to a L1, which given we will be L1 next year too (at best) does make a form of sense and naturally brings the expenditure levels down further.

The sad likelihood is that we are being crippled financially by the academy. If it does cost £5 million a year to run, as has been suggested, and we've also lost about £4 million in tv revenue after relegation, then the academy could account for 30-40% of our total expenditure, but also isn't coming close to providing players to that value each season.

The requirements for Category One status, and the poor compensation offered when richer club sign academy players, mean it's (probably by design) something for the rich clubs only.

The only way that level of expenditure is sustainable in League One would be if we were selling £4m+ worth of players each season. I doubt we could continuously achieve that whilst in League One, especially with clubs knowing our financial situation; I'm not sure we'd get £4m+ for our entire squad at the moment.

With different owners that allow us to have more stable ownership, we could certainly make a case to have some of our players worth 7 sum figures (Smith, Wing etc). We also could have some of our more promising youngsters like Azeez and Abbey turn a healthy profit with clauses involved.

Cat One can be sustained at our level I think as we do bring through some pretty good talent but we just don't have the ownership in place yet to do that.

[tmesis]

Cat One can be sustained at our level I think as we do bring through some pretty good talent but we just don't have the ownership in place yet to do that.

IF it does cost £5 million a year, and assuming we make £25 per ticket (probably less considering VAT and concession prices) it means that in every league game, the first 8695 fans are paying for the academy. In other words, despite crowds of 12000, under 3500 of those contribute towards the first team budget.

Obviously, it's not that simple, as there are grants from the FA, I believe, and some of those academy players will be in the first team squad (and there are other sources of income), but at a level where most signings are free transfers, it's not remotely sustainable.

[Snowflake Royal]

I maintain we'll be kicked out the league before the start of next season because Dai is banned from owning the club and refuses to sell.

I'm not sure the league can do that.

If we go down, they'd probably hit us with a fine and points deduction, and wait for the fire sale to leave us dropping out of the league, where it ceases to be their problem.

The other option is something like with Bury, where they say he has to provide proof we can complete the season, or get kicked out.

One of their available sanctions is barring someone from being an owner or director of a football club.

We know they already tried to do that to Dai once.

You can't have a club in the FL with an owner barred from owning them. The FL have the power to kick teams out the league, and have used it.

QED.

IF, as seems likely, Dai neither pays his fine nor the 120% of wages into a holding account, it will be a second official and deliberate act of misconduct. One that proves fines and actions against him are ignored and of no value.

The FL have also said they want to avoid punishing the club, fans and players where possible, so more points deductions for the personal misconduct of the owner don't fit (and have proven unsuccessful in getting rid of him).

We've had two months of no progress on a sale. It's looking unlikely.

[Uke]

Best to start reading the history or Bury FC so we can avoid the issues they had after being expelled…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_F.C. ... sion:_2019

As it looks more and more like it’s going to be our fate