Back from the Game - Brighton (H)

[Hoop Blah]

There has been a sea-change in how we play. I can't say it was immediately obvious
but McAnuff-Kebe and Jem-Elwood are totaling 5 v 9 goals, the 9 in less than 2/3
of the minutes. If you take Boxing Day as the switch it's 3-11, an almost 4-fold increase in
goals scored by our midfielders, in 2/3 of the minutes. That's a six-fold better strike rate,
hardly likely to be an accident.

Whether it's confidence, or McD allowing them forward more, or the Roberts effect, it's hard
to be sure, but the change in where goals are coming from is very large.

I don't think there's been a 'sea change' but I do think having a centre forward combination up tops that are a bit more able to hold onto the ball, keep it longer and enable the midfield to join them, before them being able to bring them into play within shooting range, has made a bit of a difference in how we play.

The Roberts effect, as you call it, is quite significant. The side was calling out for a player who could do what he's added to the team. It was obvious to me and why I've been banging on about having a centre forward of his type (in fact Roberts himself as one example) for a couple of years.

[Cobi]

There has been a sea-change in how we play. I can't say it was immediately obvious
but McAnuff-Kebe and Jem-Elwood are totaling 5 v 9 goals, the 9 in less than 2/3
of the minutes. If you take Boxing Day as the switch it's 3-11, an almost 4-fold increase in
goals scored by our midfielders, in 2/3 of the minutes. That's a six-fold better strike rate,
hardly likely to be an accident.

Whether it's confidence, or McD allowing them forward more, or the Roberts effect, it's hard
to be sure, but the change in where goals are coming from is very large.

I don't think there's been a 'sea change' but I do think having a centre forward combination up tops that are a bit more able to hold onto the ball, keep it longer and enable the midfield to join them, before them being able to bring them into play within shooting range, has made a bit of a difference in how we play.

The Roberts effect, as you call it, is quite significant. The side was calling out for a player who could do what he's added to the team. It was obvious to me and why I've been banging on about having a centre forward of his type (in fact Roberts himself as one example) for a couple of years.

^^ This all year long!

[Snowball]

There has been a sea-change in how we play. I can't say it was immediately obvious
but McAnuff-Kebe and Jem-Elwood are totaling 5 v 9 goals, the 9 in less than 2/3
of the minutes. If you take Boxing Day as the switch it's 3-11, an almost 4-fold increase in
goals scored by our midfielders, in 2/3 of the minutes. That's a six-fold better strike rate,
hardly likely to be an accident.

Whether it's confidence, or McD allowing them forward more, or the Roberts effect, it's hard
to be sure, but the change in where goals are coming from is very large.

I don't think there's been a 'sea change' but I do think having a centre forward combination up tops that are a bit more able to hold onto the ball, keep it longer and enable the midfield to join them, before them being able to bring them into play within shooting range, has made a bit of a difference in how we play.

The Roberts effect, as you call it, is quite significant. The side was calling out for a player who could do what he's added to the team. It was obvious to me and why I've been banging on about having a centre forward of his type (in fact Roberts himself as one example) for a couple of years.

Agreed, and the stats say it, 2.62 ppg since he arrived (missed one of those games)

Of course we can't know if the lads were improving anyway

One thing I remember from the relegation year was it was all long ball and flicks
and nothing sticking. We need/needed a player to hold it up, and that's JR. He's better
than I dared hope with the ball too.

I saw some of Antonio in his most recent game, and he was surprisingly strong
and held it up well

[Snowball]

You predicted that Karacan would soon turn into a 6+ goal a season midfielder (that's not the return of a goal scoring midfielder though, which was my point).

His current rich vein of form in front of goal (two goals in 1 game since the prediction) would translate into 5.4 goals over a full 46 game Championship season. Hence he still isn't performing as you predicted.

Naughty Hoop, sneaking in the word SOON! which I did not use OR imply



Here is what I said, word-for-word

I predict that Karacan will start scoring more goals, hopefully for us.

And will routinely get 6+ per season.

Where is "SOON"? Surely, if he might be playing for another club
(implied in "hopefully for us") I must at the very least have been
thinking a season ahead?

[Platypuss]

So why did you necro the thread?

It couldn't possibly have been for the attempted humblebrag, could it?

[Snowball]

So why did you necro the thread?

It couldn't possibly have been for the attempted humblebrag, could it?

Correct. It's raising the issue of our central midfielders getting more goals. Discuss.

And, in case you haven't noticed due to your busy diplomacy schedules,
both Jem and Elwood are shooting a lot more.

[Maguire]

Predicting that a regular starting midfielder who had only scored in one game all season would score more goals isn't quite Nostradamus territory for me (and even then, he's only scored in one other game)

FWIW I agree with Hoop Blah - they're not goalscoring midfielders in any true sense. This doesn't mean that they never score goals, just that it's not the focus of their game.

Also agree that it's probably a consequence of the entire team playing better/higher up the pitch which is probably down to Roberts to a large extent - not only through his own hold up play, but also through the burgeoning confidence he appears to have brought to the squad.

Just an opinion of course - none of us can know if Brian actually told them to get forward and shoot more often but it seems less likely than the above.

[Snowball]

Nothing to do with Nostrodamus, it's an assessment of the player's capabilities
and a belief in how the team has been set up.

I believe for at least half a season we simply stifled the game for 45-60 minutes
looking for 0-0 or the occasional lucky 1-0 lead. To do that, IMO, the manager
put restraints on the two central midfielders.

In that period they went forward more in the last 30 minutes, but now I think
the manager is asking them to take more chances, perhaps because other sides
are more fearful of us and attacking us less, or maybe because he knows we needed
a few more goals and the central defenders were so solid.

Or maybe it's just Roberts.


I still say Karacan will eventually be a scoring midfielder (6+) and this will increase his value.

My one worry about him is how much he gets kicked and how often he needs treatment.

Too much of that and maybe he will start to carry long-term issues which will hold him back

[Hoop Blah]

Apologies Snowball, I wasn't going back and double checking your wording and added the implied soon by virtue of the self congratulatory tone of your posts as if they've gone on to become the goalscoring midfielders you suggested (not that 6+ is goalscoring of course).

Your subsequent reems of stats suggest that you think they've suddenly turned themselves into the players some were suggesting we needed. A creative spark or a credible and consistent goal threat from midfield.

They're still neither.

[Snowball]

Predicting that a regular starting midfielder who had only scored in one game all season would score more goals isn't quite Nostradamus territory for me (and even then, he's only scored in one other game)

Prior to this season Karacan's league record was

73 Starts (9 Sub Appearances) 4 Goals

and this season, prior to my post, he was 17 (1) for 1 goal


That is 90 (10) for 5 Goals.

I would say, based on that, that predicting he will eventually be
a 6+ goals per season player is a fairly "out-there" prediction

and hardly "obvious".

[Snowball]

No probs, Hoop


What I was saying (in December) was that I feel Karacan will be a top midfielder
and I have said elsewhere that should he become better than 6 goals a season
he will be (or would have been prior to the take-over) a black-hole-filler.

I'm saying I see goals in him. When he got his first games for the club he looked
really special, and then dropped into this terrier-like defensive role.

I still wonder, though if long-term he might not be a top class overlapping right-back

[Snowball]

Your subsequent reems of stats suggest that you think they've suddenly turned themselves into the players
some were suggesting we needed. A creative spark or a credible and consistent goal threat from midfield.

They're still neither.

More to do with the whole midfield since Xmas, between them scoring
at six times their previous rate, which I think is an amazing stat.

[Hoop Blah]

I'm saying I see goals in him. When he got his first games for the club he looked
really special, and then dropped into this terrier-like defensive role.

And my point in response to that was that, from what I'd seen, he's always been that terrier-like midfielder throughout his youth career at the club. He wasn't 'dropped' into the role, it's just how he plays and that goals aren't really part of his game.

He may well have a couple of seasons where he bangs a few extra in yes, but I can't see him ever becoming a player who'll pop up with a significant number of goals.

[melonhead]

i can

[Vision]

Nothing to do with Nostrodamus, it's an assessment of the player's capabilities
and a belief in how the team has been set up.

I believe for at least half a season we simply stifled the game for 45-60 minutes
looking for 0-0 or the occasional lucky 1-0 lead. To do that, IMO, the manager
put restraints on the two central midfielders.

In that period they went forward more in the last 30 minutes, but now I think
the manager is asking them to take more chances, perhaps because other sides
are more fearful of us and attacking us less, or maybe because he knows we needed
a few more goals and the central defenders were so solid.

Or maybe it's just Roberts.


I still say Karacan will eventually be a scoring midfielder (6+) and this will increase his value.

My one worry about him is how much he gets kicked and how often he needs treatment.

Too much of that and maybe he will start to carry long-term issues which will hold him back

Well two of their goals have come within that last 30 minute period anyway and another of Leigertwood's was header from a set piece clearance so I'm not sure there's that much of a general difference in instructions to be honest. It's more likely to be a slight tactical tinker against certain opponents which McD has often stated he does. Roberts ability to hold the ball up certainly helps a central midfielder if he wants to join the attack which might mean they appear more in the oppositions last 3rd than before. To be honest though Leigertwood has never been that shy about having a toe punt from distance even before Roberts' arrival.

[Ian Royal]

Predicting that a regular starting midfielder who had only scored in one game all season would score more goals isn't quite Nostradamus territory for me (and even then, he's only scored in one other game)

FWIW I agree with Hoop Blah - they're not goalscoring midfielders in any true sense. This doesn't mean that they never score goals, just that it's not the focus of their game.

Also agree that it's probably a consequence of the entire team playing better/higher up the pitch which is probably down to Roberts to a large extent - not only through his own hold up play, but also through the burgeoning confidence he appears to have brought to the squad.

Just an opinion of course - none of us can know if Brian actually told them to get forward and shoot more often but it seems less likely than the above.

Agreed. The bare minimum you can expect from a goal scoring midfield is 5 in a season at this level IMO. And that's a poor season for one. They should be knocking on the doors of double figures regularly. Caskey was a goalscoring midfielder (mostly thanks to set pieces), Sigurdsson was a goalscoring midfielder, Sidwell was pretty close, if maybe not quite the full deal all the time.

When Karacan / Ledge get 5+ a couple of seasons in a row I'll start taking them seriously in that regard. Although to be honest to be remotely convincing it'd really need to be more like 8+

[Snowball]

To be honest though Leigertwood has never been that shy about having a toe punt from distance even before Roberts' arrival.

Last season he had a total of 15 shots, just 4 on target in 21 (1) games

approximately a shot every 126 minutes.



This season he has had 34 shots in 37 games 16 on Target, 18 off, approx 1 shot every 99 minutes

[Hoop Blah]

To be honest though Leigertwood has never been that shy about having a toe punt from distance even before Roberts' arrival.

Last season he had a total of 15 shots, just 4 on target in 21 (1) games

approximately a shot every 126 minutes.



This season he has had 34 shots in 37 games 16 on Target, 18 off, approx 1 shot every 99 minutes

I thought we'd established elsewhere that the 'official stats' weren't that reliable.

It could be a different set of opta (or whoever it is who compiles these) people watching our games now, and they're that a bit more loose with their stat finger.

[Ian Royal]

Given how well we are doing it may also just be a product of opportunity rather than desire or instruction.

[Vision]

To be honest though Leigertwood has never been that shy about having a toe punt from distance even before Roberts' arrival.

Last season he had a total of 15 shots, just 4 on target in 21 (1) games

approximately a shot every 126 minutes.



This season he has had 34 shots in 37 games 16 on Target, 18 off, approx 1 shot every 99 minutes

Perhaps I should have put the "odd toe punt" down but then I'm not suggesting he shoots at will anytime he's within 40 yards merely that if the opportunity is there he's never been shy about having a dig.

You accuse other people of nitpicking at your posts often enough (and thats when you try to pass off specific data as supposed gospel) so it's a bit odd to take a general point and try to use specific not 100% reliable or relevant data to try and counter argue it yourself.

Still if it makes you happy....

One thing you can help me with.I'm sure I've asked this before but don't know if anyone has ever answered it but do headers count as shots? Or by shots do we mean attempts?