How impressed are you with BMcD's return to the club?

[Maneki Neko]

yep, there was 10 million available and multiple brilliant young strikers ready to come, but McDermott thought, you know what, no. all I need is yann

[Top Flight]

Gary Hooper (more expensive of course) and Sonogo (admittedly another loan player)

hooper was more expensive and sonogo was on loan, which we know was already a problem for us.

what were the other options, in terms of strikers to bring in, at that price, with that experience/record, willing to come here as a short term stop gap?
genuine question.

I have no idea who else was available as a lot more players are out there and available than ever move so, unless your within the game and talking to clubs about their players, it's impossible to know.

Yep, Sonogo was a loan and we probably, rightly, didn't want to go down that route but it wasn't just having loan players that was the issue, it was the attitude within the squad that developed around the Fulham-Clarke saga and that hasn't been addressed since. Having loan players wasn't an issue when we were second in the league because they were motivated and applying themselves properly.

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though? Why couldn't we have been buying the next long term number 9 to build the team around for 2 or 3 seasons?

Part of what I'm getting at is that Kermagant was a slightly odd and desperate signing (made some sense yes, but his record is very average and I'm still not sure what his strength is) and it's a fair comment to put some criticism at McDermott's door for it. There's also an element of what you and TF are saying that the club had already given up on the league season by then so a stop gap signing made a sense.

We were only 6 points behind Sheffield Wednesday at the time and look how they've done.

Because it has to be the right player, at the right time and at the right price. If those factors don't all come together, then it is going to be a short-term fix as the solution.

[Top Flight]

Gary Hooper (more expensive of course) and Sonogo (admittedly another loan player)

hooper was more expensive and sonogo was on loan, which we know was already a problem for us.

what were the other options, in terms of strikers to bring in, at that price, with that experience/record, willing to come here as a short term stop gap?
genuine question.

I have no idea who else was available as a lot more players are out there and available than ever move so, unless your within the game and talking to clubs about their players, it's impossible to know.

Yep, Sonogo was a loan and we probably, rightly, didn't want to go down that route but it wasn't just having loan players that was the issue, it was the attitude within the squad that developed around the Fulham-Clarke saga and that hasn't been addressed since. Having loan players wasn't an issue when we were second in the league because they were motivated and applying themselves properly.

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though? Why couldn't we have been buying the next long term number 9 to build the team around for 2 or 3 seasons?

Part of what I'm getting at is that Kermagant was a slightly odd and desperate signing (made some sense yes, but his record is very average and I'm still not sure what his strength is) and it's a fair comment to put some criticism at McDermott's door for it. There's also an element of what you and TF are saying that the club had already given up on the league season by then so a stop gap signing made a sense.

We were only 6 points behind Sheffield Wednesday at the time and look how they've done.

Hoop Blah, to some extent, I agree with you. I don't really like Kermorgant. I was completely miffed in January. I could not understand, why we would be selling Orlando Sa, a decent striker, only 27 years old and replacing him with a 34 year old who I agree, is fairly average.

It made no sense to me. Alot of nobbers were arguing that Kermorgant is actually better than Orlando and that Orlando is a hot head. They were making strong arguments that apart from Orlando's hat trick against Ipswich, he didn't really do much else. I didn't really agree, I thought Orlando is a better striker and I was annoyed. I wanted to hear the official reason from the club as to why they let Orlando go.

I had to accept that maybe Orlando wanted to leave and therefore he had to go.

It was probably the case in the end, that we couldn't get the right player at the right time and at the right price. So in the end we've ended up with Yann Kermorgant. It's very similar to Coppell's stop gap signings of Lloyd Owusu and Les Ferdinand. It's still better that we get these stop gaps in than not. Otherwise we would be even more toothless up front. I'm sure McDermott is looking for the next Kevin Doyle. Hopefully he'll find him, at the right price, this summer.

[BR2]

hooper was more expensive and sonogo was on loan, which we know was already a problem for us.

what were the other options, in terms of strikers to bring in, at that price, with that experience/record, willing to come here as a short term stop gap?
genuine question.

I have no idea who else was available as a lot more players are out there and available than ever move so, unless your within the game and talking to clubs about their players, it's impossible to know.

Yep, Sonogo was a loan and we probably, rightly, didn't want to go down that route but it wasn't just having loan players that was the issue, it was the attitude within the squad that developed around the Fulham-Clarke saga and that hasn't been addressed since. Having loan players wasn't an issue when we were second in the league because they were motivated and applying themselves properly.

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though? Why couldn't we have been buying the next long term number 9 to build the team around for 2 or 3 seasons?

Part of what I'm getting at is that Kermagant was a slightly odd and desperate signing (made some sense yes, but his record is very average and I'm still not sure what his strength is) and it's a fair comment to put some criticism at McDermott's door for it. There's also an element of what you and TF are saying that the club had already given up on the league season by then so a stop gap signing made a sense.

We were only 6 points behind Sheffield Wednesday at the time and look how they've done.

Hoop Blah, to some extent, I agree with you. I don't really like Kermorgant. I was completely miffed in January. I could not understand, why we would be selling Orlando Sa, a decent striker, only 27 years old and replacing him with a 34 year old who I agree, is fairly average.

It made no sense to me. Alot of nobbers were arguing that Kermorgant is actually better than Orlando and that Orlando is a hot head. They were making strong arguments that apart from Orlando's hat trick against Ipswich, he didn't really do much else. I didn't really agree, I thought Orlando is a better striker and I was annoyed. I wanted to hear the official reason from the club as to why they let Orlando go.

I had to accept that maybe Orlando wanted to leave and therefore he had to go.

It was probably the case in the end, that we couldn't get the right player at the right time and at the right price. So in the end we've ended up with Yann Kermorgant. It's very similar to Coppell's stop gap signings of Lloyd Owusu and Les Ferdinand. It's still better that we get these stop gaps in than not. Otherwise we would be even more toothless up front. I'm sure McDermott is looking for the next Kevin Doyle. Hopefully he'll find him, at the right price, this summer.

[BR2]

I have no idea who else was available as a lot more players are out there and available than ever move so, unless your within the game and talking to clubs about their players, it's impossible to know.

Yep, Sonogo was a loan and we probably, rightly, didn't want to go down that route but it wasn't just having loan players that was the issue, it was the attitude within the squad that developed around the Fulham-Clarke saga and that hasn't been addressed since. Having loan players wasn't an issue when we were second in the league because they were motivated and applying themselves properly.

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though? Why couldn't we have been buying the next long term number 9 to build the team around for 2 or 3 seasons?

Part of what I'm getting at is that Kermagant was a slightly odd and desperate signing (made some sense yes, but his record is very average and I'm still not sure what his strength is) and it's a fair comment to put some criticism at McDermott's door for it. There's also an element of what you and TF are saying that the club had already given up on the league season by then so a stop gap signing made a sense.

We were only 6 points behind Sheffield Wednesday at the time and look how they've done.

Hoop Blah, to some extent, I agree with you. I don't really like Kermorgant. I was completely miffed in January. I could not understand, why we would be selling Orlando Sa, a decent striker, only 27 years old and replacing him with a 34 year old who I agree, is fairly average.

It made no sense to me. Alot of nobbers were arguing that Kermorgant is actually better than Orlando and that Orlando is a hot head. They were making strong arguments that apart from Orlando's hat trick against Ipswich, he didn't really do much else. I didn't really agree, I thought Orlando is a better striker and I was annoyed. I wanted to hear the official reason from the club as to why they let Orlando go.

I had to accept that maybe Orlando wanted to leave and therefore he had to go.

It was probably the case in the end, that we couldn't get the right player at the right time and at the right price. So in the end we've ended up with Yann Kermorgant. It's very similar to Coppell's stop gap signings of Lloyd Owusu and Les Ferdinand. It's still better that we get these stop gaps in than not. Otherwise we would be even more toothless up front. I'm sure McDermott is looking for the next Kevin Doyle. Hopefully he'll find him, at the right price, this summer.

[quote="BR2"][quote="Top Flight"][quote="Hoop Blah"]

IIRC neither Owusu nor Ferdinand cost £500,000.
If Yann had been on a free then o.k. that is a stop-gap but paying that for a player who cost £350,000 or so 2 years earlier and had spent a fair amount of time out injured since and being 34 years old all adds up to not very good business IMHO.
2 goals against relegated Charlton and 1 goal in the last game of the season played like a friendly do not represent a good return for a very experienced striker signed, presumably, to fit in straight away.

That signing plus Gunter getting another 3 years as a new contract strike me as poor business and as Hoops said, it wasn't on the eve of the end of the transfer window the deal for Yann was done 11 days before, so, in the world of football where Brian is supposedly so well connected, it was hardly last minute,

[Maneki Neko]

why is gunter bad business? if he has a good tournament he may leave for a good fee
if he stays, RFC have kept a decent experienced pro, in a position we are already very short in.
what exactly is bad business about that?

gunter isn't a barn storming matchwinner, hes just a full back, & they tend to be failed wingers or failed defenders, and its not a position you can easily influence games from.

is he the best full back in the world? no. is he the worst? no.
does he stop all the crosses? no, is he unerringly accurate with his crossing? no.
is that a reason to get rid of him? no

IMO he played miles better after his contract was renewed anyway.

[Top Flight]

I agree. Gunter's a good player. He is a very decent Right Back at Championship level. He could also be a much better and more effective player when Brian gets the right players in to the side and starts to get them playing in a good style and shape. Some of our players could improve considerably with the right players around them.

If Gunter had a good right wing partner, which should be McCleary and decent players in the centre of the park and a good target man striker to aim for, he could start becoming far more effective.

I think Cooper could be a much better player with mistakes far less noticeable if he had two solid centre midfielders in front of him and a commanding goalkeeper behind him. Until he has that, it's difficult to know exactly how good Cooper is going to be.

Last season, we really didn't play well as a team and that makes players look bad. some, possibly worse than others and perhaps undeservedly looking worse. Hopefully, those elements will be much better next season and we can look forward to seeing some of our lads who have blatantly underperformed and made to look a lot worse than they perhaps are start to look the players they can actually be.

[John Smith]

I think Cooper could be a much better player with mistakes far less noticeable if he had two solid centre midfielders in front of him and a commanding goalkeeper behind him. Until he has that, it's difficult to know exactly how good Cooper is going to be.

Are you just making things up to try and sound part-way intelligent? I think you are.

How would him playing with those particular players make him better? Mistakes less noticeable? What are you on about?! If he isn't good in the current setup up then that's it - he just isn't that good.

Foolish posting.

[Hoop Blah]

why is gunter bad business? if he has a good tournament he may leave for a good fee
if he stays, RFC have kept a decent experienced pro, in a position we are already very short in.
what exactly is bad business about that?

Depending on how much we're actually paying him I largely agree with that. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some kind of release clause in his contract in case someone does come knocking for him.

gunter isn't a barn storming matchwinner, hes just a full back, & they tend to be failed wingers or failed defenders, and its not a position you can easily influence games from.

Can't agree with that at all though. Good fullbacks are massively important in this day and age, especially if we're looking to play the kind of formation that McDermott has been trying to bed in over the last half a dozen games. You only have to look at Spurs to see how influential good fullbacks can be, and Murty and Shorey played a big part in our success under Coppell because fullbacks get a lot of time and space to be creative and not just stoppers.

[Hoop Blah]

I think Cooper could be a much better player with mistakes far less noticeable if he had two solid centre midfielders in front of him and a commanding goalkeeper behind him. Until he has that, it's difficult to know exactly how good Cooper is going to be.

Are you just making things up to try and sound part-way intelligent? I think you are.

How would him playing with those particular players make him better? Mistakes less noticeable? What are you on about?! If he isn't good in the current setup up then that's it - he just isn't that good.

Foolish posting.

To be fair to Top Flight it's a team game and I think he has a point with Cooper, or any other player for that matter. Every player can be exposed if the team around them doesn't suit their strengths and weaknesses and every team needs the blend of skills to be effective.

Cooper could, with the right team around him be a lot better than he has been this season. I still don't think he's going to be good enough to be a starting centre half for a team who are in and around the play offs.

[Hoop Blah]

Last season, we really didn't play well as a team and that makes players look bad. some, possibly worse than others and perhaps undeservedly looking worse. Hopefully, those elements will be much better next season and we can look forward to seeing some of our lads who have blatantly underperformed and made to look a lot worse than they perhaps are start to look the players they can actually be.

Agreed.

Now who is responsible for blending the players we have into an effective team and creating the atmosphere around the sqaud to make sure everyone is doing their bit?

[blueroyals]

why is gunter bad business? if he has a good tournament he may leave for a good fee
if he stays, RFC have kept a decent experienced pro, in a position we are already very short in.
what exactly is bad business about that?

gunter isn't a barn storming matchwinner, hes just a full back, & they tend to be failed wingers or failed defenders, and its not a position you can easily influence games from.

is he the best full back in the world? no. is he the worst? no.
does he stop all the crosses? no, is he unerringly accurate with his crossing? no.
is that a reason to get rid of him? no

IMO he played miles better after his contract was renewed anyway.

Average going forward, average defending. You don't (usually) get out of this division with average players and I suspect we're not paying him an average wage.

[Longhorn1970]

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though?

because that's clearly what he was backed to do.

the issue wasn't bringing in kermorgant, it was losing blackman, Sa, Clarke etc

Clearly? How do you know?

Why isn't it just that McDermott chose to go down that route instead of other options (which we can't know about)?

Just to stop this going off on a tangent, my original point was to Top Flight that you can't just wave off any criticism of McDermott for his judgement (Victor questioned it with the signing being one example). Even with his hands tied he still has to be judged on his decisions, but taking the situation as mitigation. Something I'm not sure Top Flight can do as he seems to rule everything as being out of McDermotts control.

+1

[Maneki Neko]

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though?

because that's clearly what he was backed to do.

the issue wasn't bringing in kermorgant, it was losing blackman, Sa, Clarke etc

Clearly? How do you know?

Why isn't it just that McDermott chose to go down that route instead of other options (which we can't know about)?

Just to stop this going off on a tangent, my original point was to Top Flight that you can't just wave off any criticism of McDermott for his judgement (Victor questioned it with the signing being one example). Even with his hands tied he still has to be judged on his decisions, but taking the situation as mitigation. Something I'm not sure Top Flight can do as he seems to rule everything as being out of McDermotts control.

For me it is out of his control.these things were done without his say so. That is perfectly reasonable litigation imo.

We failed to improve because, no matter what formation/tactics/personell we tried, we simply couldnt put ball in net enough to win games and that added pressure onto a makeshift defence.
Thats what happens when u sell ur onky two recognised goal scorers.
and I dont disagree with the decision to do that either.

[SCIAG]

In the last three seasons at this level, Kermogant has 41 goals from 107 matches. Pretty crap record before that, only breaking 10 goals once in five years in various second divisions, but he looked to be having a late-career renaissance and made sense as a signing. It just hasn't worked.

[Ian Royal]

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though?

because that's clearly what he was backed to do.

the issue wasn't bringing in kermorgant, it was losing blackman, Sa, Clarke etc

Blackman had scored 2 goals in 13 games at the point he left, compared to 10 in the previous 13. Sa scored in just 3 of 21 matches. Losing Blackman was certainly a blow... although as demonstrated by his time at Derby, there was no guarantee he'd have replicated his early, rather than latter (and original) form.

Sa looked more competent than Kermorgant, but didn't actually deliver any more.

Kermorgant can be very firmly filed as a less effective Owusu, or Ferdinand. He didn't even make a good stop gap, because he did very little in his 17 appearances and is here for another year. Not an awful signing by any stretch, but certainly not a good one, and predictably so.

[Top Flight]

Hooper was obviously more expensive yes, but why are you asking about players who are only willing to come in is a cheap stop gap though?

because that's clearly what he was backed to do.

the issue wasn't bringing in kermorgant, it was losing blackman, Sa, Clarke etc

Blackman had scored 2 goals in 13 games at the point he left, compared to 10 in the previous 13. Sa scored in just 3 of 21 matches. Losing Blackman was certainly a blow... although as demonstrated by his time at Derby, there was no guarantee he'd have replicated his early, rather than latter (and original) form.

Sa looked more competent than Kermorgant, but didn't actually deliver any more.

Kermorgant can be very firmly filed as a less effective Owusu, or Ferdinand. He didn't even make a good stop gap, because he did very little in his 17 appearances and is here for another year. Not an awful signing by any stretch, but certainly not a good one, and predictably so.

Well, there you go. That's life. Let's sack McDermott.

[Ian Royal]

Get a grip TF, you're like a hormonal teen.

[Top Flight]

Get a grip TF, you're like a hormonal teen.

Yes Ian. I love you too.

[Hoop Blah]

For me it is out of his control.these things were done without his say so. That is perfectly reasonable litigation imo.

We failed to improve because, no matter what formation/tactics/personell we tried, we simply couldnt put ball in net enough to win games and that added pressure onto a makeshift defence.
Thats what happens when u sell ur onky two recognised goal scorers.
and I dont disagree with the decision to do that either.

Only recognised goal scorers? Blackman isn't a recognised goalscorer he just had a freakish run of form and we had Vydra, Cox and Robson-Kanu, plus the incoming Kermorgant who were all as capable of scoring goals as the two that left (well, certainly as capable as Blackman at least. Sa's record is slightly better).

The fact that none of those players have shown any form in front of goal for us can't be a coincidence can it? What is it that prevented them finding their scoring touch? Addressing that would've been good management and it certainly wasn't selling Sa and Blackman that prevented us scoring goals.