Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[Snowflake Royal]

The Puscas clause didn't happen when they missed promotion, Moore got a massive injury. They were probably 2 outgoings they were hoping for, and then perhaps selling Joao and Meite could have got us to our target. But once Puscas and Moore were off, there was no chance. So why weaken the squad?

Yeah that's my thoughts, once it became clear we were never going to reach the business plan, we may as well have kept the best possible squad together to give us the best fighting chance.

Ian does have a point though, it's not as if any of Joao, Meite or Ejaria (exclude Moore as he was injured for most of it) had much impact that season. I suppose it's always easier to say in hindsight though.

I think if we'd shown more effort to achieve it and only got part way because deals fell through or major injuries blocked key transfers, the FL might have given more leeway and allowed a mixed sales and alternative methods to qualify rather than just going - well you spent 3 weeks trying to flog one player for more than he's worth then gave up.

[tmesis]

I just read the Guardian article. Made my blood run cold.

If Dai had sold a few months ago, the squad, the academy and the strong possibility of League 1 survival would have made it a club with a future.

Now they'd be buying a League 2 club, a depleted academy stripped of Cat 1, all or most of it's best players gone, and debts spriralling out of control.

It's a further example of the grotesque incompetence that has been the hallmark of his tenure at the club. He can't even fück off properly.

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

A club like us will only ever be sustainable by developing and selling players. Under Dai, he has steadfastly refused to sell talent at its peak value. We don't need to list the millions of pounds of talent that walked out the door for free but selling just a couple would have seen a very different football club.

"Hoping we have a player every now and then who can be sold for a big fee" isn't really a business plan though.

Given that our first team wage bill is probably no longer excessive for a club with our income, we need to look at what else is causing us to lose money hand over fist. Sadly, it's possibly the expense of running a premier league standard training facility and academy in League One.

[Stranded]

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

A club like us will only ever be sustainable by developing and selling players. Under Dai, he has steadfastly refused to sell talent at its peak value. We don't need to list the millions of pounds of talent that walked out the door for free but selling just a couple would have seen a very different football club.

"Hoping we have a player every now and then who can be sold for a big fee" isn't really a business plan though.

Given that our first team wage bill is probably no longer excessive for a club with our income, we need to look at what else is causing us to lose money hand over fist. Sadly, it's possibly the expense of running a premier league standard training facility and academy in League One.

Yes it probably is - the training ground probably needs to be scaled back whilst in lower divisions, i.e. can they close sections off that can be re-opened and we will absolutely need to look at the Academy and if the benefity of being a Cat 1 are worth the costs associated. Unless it is giving us a consistent revenue stream or allowing us to save on player costs then probably a drop to Cat 2 for a few years may be sensible.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

The Puscas clause didn't happen when they missed promotion, Moore got a massive injury. They were probably 2 outgoings they were hoping for, and then perhaps selling Joao and Meite could have got us to our target. But once Puscas and Moore were off, there was no chance. So why weaken the squad?

Yeah that's my thoughts, once it became clear we were never going to reach the business plan, we may as well have kept the best possible squad together to give us the best fighting chance.

Ian does have a point though, it's not as if any of Joao, Meite or Ejaria (exclude Moore as he was injured for most of it) had much impact that season. I suppose it's always easier to say in hindsight though.

I think if we'd shown more effort to achieve it and only got part way because deals fell through or major injuries blocked key transfers, the FL might have given more leeway and allowed a mixed sales and alternative methods to qualify rather than just going - well you spent 3 weeks trying to flog one player for more than he's worth then gave up.

It's tough trying to flog a dead horse though, in Moore's case. I know we never really know, but it was reported that we tried to effectively just give Moore away (MLS was quoted at one stage) just to get him off our wage bill, then he got injured again. At that point, he was never going to move. Puscas would have gone if Pisa had won the final, so was out of our hands really. There were rumours we were trying to get shut of Ejaria as well (a swap deal for Laurent at Stoke was touted unrealistically I think) etc. I think we probably did try and make concerted efforts to move some of the players.

[morganb]

Does a League 1 team really need three mascots? There's an obvious saving there.

[Greatwesternline]

I just read the Guardian article. Made my blood run cold.

If Dai had sold a few months ago, the squad, the academy and the strong possibility of League 1 survival would have made it a club with a future.

Now they'd be buying a League 2 club, a depleted academy stripped of Cat 1, all or most of it's best players gone, and debts spriralling out of control.

It's a further example of the grotesque incompetence that has been the hallmark of his tenure at the club. He can't even fück off properly.

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

[Greatwesternline]

One observation i would make is:

All this bed wetting about not hotels for away games.

The players turn up in incredibly expensive shiny cars. They can afford to pay for a Premier Inn for the night at a cost of £50?

There are stories of staff at the training ground ferrying in microwave ready meals for lunches. I don't know about you, but is it not possible that these players put their hands in their very deep pockets and bring some lunch with them to work, like most people in life?

[WestYorksRoyal]

One observation i would make is:

All this bed wetting about not hotels for away games.

The players turn up in incredibly expensive shiny cars. They can afford to pay for a Premier Inn for the night at a cost of £50?

There are stories of staff at the training ground ferrying in microwave ready meals for lunches. I don't know about you, but is it not possible that these players put their hands in their very deep pockets and bring some lunch with them to work, like most people in life?

Agree, but the point is that these things are normal in the industry and any players and staff will be judging us against competition who can provide this. Also on the food point, I imagine planning meals for professional athletes is more work than regular people working out their meals.

Hopefully players can see the bigger picture and view these as short term inconveniences. But if Dai is still here in the summer why would anyone stay?

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I just read the Guardian article. Made my blood run cold.

If Dai had sold a few months ago, the squad, the academy and the strong possibility of League 1 survival would have made it a club with a future.

Now they'd be buying a League 2 club, a depleted academy stripped of Cat 1, all or most of it's best players gone, and debts spriralling out of control.

It's a further example of the grotesque incompetence that has been the hallmark of his tenure at the club. He can't even fück off properly.

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

[WestYorksRoyal]

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

I think it's the overheads of the SCL, Bearwood and academy that are killing us. Agree that with our attendances plus transfer revenue for the likes of Puscas, we should have one of the division's larger budgets but these operations eat into it. I read yesterday that we're in arrears with ProZone. How many L1 clubs use ProZone?

I know people flinch at selling Bearwood, but selling it and leasing back a proportion of the training facilities to match our status would not only bring in cash but also cut down our outgoings. And then if a new owner rebuilds the club, they can buy it back when the gullible property developer we sold to realises they're at least a decade away from getting through all the planning bureaucracy.

[Stranded]

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

I think it's the overheads of the SCL, Bearwood and academy that are killing us. Agree that with our attendances plus transfer revenue for the likes of Puscas, we should have one of the division's larger budgets but these operations eat into it. I read yesterday that we're in arrears with ProZone. How many L1 clubs use ProZone?

I know people flinch at selling Bearwood, but selling it and leasing back a proportion of the training facilities to match our status would not only bring in cash but also cut down our outgoings. And then if a new owner rebuilds the club, they can buy it back when the gullible property developer we sold to realises they're at least a decade away from getting through all the planning bureaucracy.

Who would buy Bearwood as a training ground though - and if another club did want to buy it, why would they then allow us to continue using part of it?

For example, lets say Fulham decided it made sense for them - would they really want a lower league team using a small proportion of it?

[WestYorksRoyal]

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

I think it's the overheads of the SCL, Bearwood and academy that are killing us. Agree that with our attendances plus transfer revenue for the likes of Puscas, we should have one of the division's larger budgets but these operations eat into it. I read yesterday that we're in arrears with ProZone. How many L1 clubs use ProZone?

I know people flinch at selling Bearwood, but selling it and leasing back a proportion of the training facilities to match our status would not only bring in cash but also cut down our outgoings. And then if a new owner rebuilds the club, they can buy it back when the gullible property developer we sold to realises they're at least a decade away from getting through all the planning bureaucracy.

Who would buy Bearwood as a training ground though - and if another club did want to buy it, why would they then allow us to continue using part of it?

For example, lets say Fulham decided it made sense for them - would they really want a lower league team using a small proportion of it?

I suspect you're right; Dai may be interested in selling but I don't know who would buy it because developing property on it would be so difficult.

Perhaps we could turn a section into a high end health club to bring some cash in?

[Snowflake Royal]

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

A club like us will only ever be sustainable by developing and selling players. Under Dai, he has steadfastly refused to sell talent at its peak value. We don't need to list the millions of pounds of talent that walked out the door for free but selling just a couple would have seen a very different football club.

"Hoping we have a player every now and then who can be sold for a big fee" isn't really a business plan though.

Given that our first team wage bill is probably no longer excessive for a club with our income, we need to look at what else is causing us to lose money hand over fist. Sadly, it's possibly the expense of running a premier league standard training facility and academy in League One.

Any vaguely successful club is going to have individual players who can be sold for good money fairly regularly.

2008/9 - Kitson, Shorey?
2009/10 - Doyle, Mills?
2010/11 - Siggurdsson
2011/12 - Long
If no promotion we had candidates in McAnuff, Pearce, Gorkss, Le Fondre


More recently:
Joao, Meite, Moore, Olise, Swift, Loader, Puscas - all possible or had bids.


If you have slim pickings for a year or two you should have enough flex to cope and maybe cut your cloth a bit.

[rabidbee]

One observation i would make is:

All this bed wetting about not hotels for away games.

The players turn up in incredibly expensive shiny cars. They can afford to pay for a Premier Inn for the night at a cost of £50?

There are stories of staff at the training ground ferrying in microwave ready meals for lunches. I don't know about you, but is it not possible that these players put their hands in their very deep pockets and bring some lunch with them to work, like most people in life?

I mean, this is how I feel about heavily subsidised meals on the Parliamentary estate...

I don't see why football should be different from other industries. Should people on salaries of, say £100K+ have to pay their own travel and accommodation expenses when traveling away for work?

Also, are the training staff paying for the meals out of their own pockets, or have they just taken on responsibility to source (at the club's expense) suitable meals in the absence of catering at the training ground?

[Snowflake Royal]

Yeah that's my thoughts, once it became clear we were never going to reach the business plan, we may as well have kept the best possible squad together to give us the best fighting chance.

Ian does have a point though, it's not as if any of Joao, Meite or Ejaria (exclude Moore as he was injured for most of it) had much impact that season. I suppose it's always easier to say in hindsight though.

I think if we'd shown more effort to achieve it and only got part way because deals fell through or major injuries blocked key transfers, the FL might have given more leeway and allowed a mixed sales and alternative methods to qualify rather than just going - well you spent 3 weeks trying to flog one player for more than he's worth then gave up.

It's tough trying to flog a dead horse though, in Moore's case. I know we never really know, but it was reported that we tried to effectively just give Moore away (MLS was quoted at one stage) just to get him off our wage bill, then he got injured again. At that point, he was never going to move. Puscas would have gone if Pisa had won the final, so was out of our hands really. There were rumours we were trying to get shut of Ejaria as well (a swap deal for Laurent at Stoke was touted unrealistically I think) etc. I think we probably did try and make concerted efforts to move some of the players.

I didn’t say we should flog dead horses with Moore or Puscas though.

We had other valuable players.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I think if we'd shown more effort to achieve it and only got part way because deals fell through or major injuries blocked key transfers, the FL might have given more leeway and allowed a mixed sales and alternative methods to qualify rather than just going - well you spent 3 weeks trying to flog one player for more than he's worth then gave up.

It's tough trying to flog a dead horse though, in Moore's case. I know we never really know, but it was reported that we tried to effectively just give Moore away (MLS was quoted at one stage) just to get him off our wage bill, then he got injured again. At that point, he was never going to move. Puscas would have gone if Pisa had won the final, so was out of our hands really. There were rumours we were trying to get shut of Ejaria as well (a swap deal for Laurent at Stoke was touted unrealistically I think) etc. I think we probably did try and make concerted efforts to move some of the players.

I didn’t say we should flog dead horses with Moore or Puscas though.

We had other valuable players.

Got to be honest, we didn't have much value in the squad last year. There was not much of a path to hit the EFL's target which I believe was £12m. We've discussed Puscas, Joao, Moore and Meite. Who else from last year's squad could we have sold for good money?

[Greatwesternline]

It's still staggering that after years of embargoes and 'financial plans' we still seem to be hopelessly far away from being sustainable, even with a weak squad and good crowds.

It would be nice to know where exactly the money is going for the finances to still be so bad. Still paying for Bearwood maybe? If there's some kind of major overhead that make us a money-pit, it will put off all but the most generous of potential buyers.

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

[Greatwesternline]

One observation i would make is:

All this bed wetting about not hotels for away games.

The players turn up in incredibly expensive shiny cars. They can afford to pay for a Premier Inn for the night at a cost of £50?

There are stories of staff at the training ground ferrying in microwave ready meals for lunches. I don't know about you, but is it not possible that these players put their hands in their very deep pockets and bring some lunch with them to work, like most people in life?

I mean, this is how I feel about heavily subsidised meals on the Parliamentary estate...

I don't see why football should be different from other industries. Should people on salaries of, say £100K+ have to pay their own travel and accommodation expenses when traveling away for work?

Also, are the training staff paying for the meals out of their own pockets, or have they just taken on responsibility to source (at the club's expense) suitable meals in the absence of catering at the training ground?

Footballers perhaps shouldnt be expected to pay for their own hotels. But here is the thing, if staying in a hotel guarantees you a better performance, and you earn £5,000 a week, why would you not make that small investment in your own career?

If you can afford to pay your agent 10% of your wages to help further your career, you can probably afford £50 once a fortnight to help you play better in matches.

[WestYorksRoyal]

We literally in the last transfer window took on new players at wages that other league 1 teams couldnt compete with.

But L1 clubs' wage bills can only be a certain % of their turnover though, is it 70% I think? So that doesn't add up, we don't seem to be spending any "more" than other clubs in terms of % of turnover (unless it comes out we are).

Given our accounts over the last couple of years, I have always thought there are more major costs somewhere that we don't know of. We estimate the costs of running a Cat 1 Academy, the Stadium the Wage Bill is also stated, but then there seems to be a hefty amount of "unknown" losses that exist within the club. Whether we underestimate how much the training ground, stadium and Cat 1 Academy actually costs us, or there are further costs that we, as fans, can't answer for, I don't know. I've thought it could be the latter.

The rent on Madejski Stadium.
Depreciation of Training ground.
Depreciation on Academy.

Three big costs right there that other clubs dont have.

If Cambridge United fans say Reading swooped in and offerend two of their players much more money that Cambridge could afford, it suggests we pay unsustainable wages. Is our revenue bigger than Cambridges in this league? Not by much i imagine.

Depreciation is meaningless. Our problems are cashflow related, not accounting profit related. Depression is even excluded from FFP to encourage capital expenditure.

Our average attendance is nearly double that of Cambridge's, so all things being equal of course we should be able to afford better wages.

[bcubed]

I think it's the overheads of the SCL, Bearwood and academy that are killing us. Agree that with our attendances plus transfer revenue for the likes of Puscas, we should have one of the division's larger budgets but these operations eat into it. I read yesterday that we're in arrears with ProZone. How many L1 clubs use ProZone?

I know people flinch at selling Bearwood, but selling it and leasing back a proportion of the training facilities to match our status would not only bring in cash but also cut down our outgoings. And then if a new owner rebuilds the club, they can buy it back when the gullible property developer we sold to realises they're at least a decade away from getting through all the planning bureaucracy.

Who would buy Bearwood as a training ground though - and if another club did want to buy it, why would they then allow us to continue using part of it?

For example, lets say Fulham decided it made sense for them - would they really want a lower league team using a small proportion of it?

I suspect you're right; Dai may be interested in selling but I don't know who would buy it because developing property on it would be so difficult.

Perhaps we could turn a section into a high end health club to bring some cash in?

I wouldnt rule out a developer thinking they could build houses on Bearwood. If not now at some point in the future. There's such pressure to build new houses everywhere that permissions are being granted, often on appeal, that would never have been considered years ago.

I'm saying this without knowing the details of the site, not being a local these days. But golf courses get built on, for example, and wasn't there a recent example of building development being approved nearby. "223 properties on the site for the former Reading Golf Club, off Kidmore End Road. It will be known as Emmer Green Drive."