Are we really that bad compared to 2006-8?

[Alexander Litvinenko]

In 2006, I had no doubts whatsoever that we'd stay up, because we were so very much better than any every other team in the Championship that we won.

This year, I have real doubts we'll stay up - to be honest I still can't work out how we won the Championship last year, because in my mind we weren't even the best team in the Championship, let alone being miles ahead of all the others.

[Archie's penalty]

I still can't believe we went up as well. Very surreal.

Those games against West Ham and Southampton were key. Our nerves don't seem to be holding up to the pressure this year.

[Kev in Bracknell]

If we lose 8 games in a row, then we probably are. Either way, I think we'd be relegation fodder unless we could counter-balance that sort of dire run with some kind of consistent win/draw purple patch.

[bcubed]

Now we've had a lot of moaning over the last couple of days, that the team doesn't pass the ball enough, that it looks for scraps, that it isn't good enough for the premier league.

i think it's good to cast our minds back to 2006-8 premiership adventure.

Firstly regarding 2006-7. We seem to have slightly mythologised this team. Sure we were devastating at times but we didn't really play possession football that year. There was a lot of scrappy wins (like against Wigan and Fulham at home for example). And there were some really bad defeats (Arsenal at home, Blackburn at home, Watford at home).

And don't even get me started about 2007-8, a shambles with some absolutely chaotic performances.

So I think it's time to reassess those seasons and think whether where we are is really that much lower than where we were then....

While we definitely need to improve I'm not really sure that what we are doing now is actually that much different to what we were doing then.

The first season the only bad result was 4-0 at home to arsenal, but they were a great side then and had henri. 2nd season wasnt too bad although the spurs and pompey results were bad, but was also beat liverpool 3-1 home that year when they still had a decent side. However this side doesnt compare to that side. nowhere near as good. we are more like stoke and will grind out results although they are better than us at that at the mo. still exciting though and if we stay up then mcd has done a brill job imo.

The 06/07 side ground a lot of results - you seem to have nostalgia tinted glasses if you think otherwise
This side needs to do the same and as I said above needs some luck as well

[handbags_harris]

I still can't believe we went up as well. Very surreal.

Those games against West Ham and Southampton were key. Our nerves don't seem to be holding up to the pressure this year.

Doesn't come down to nerves mate, it comes down to the quality we're up against which is significantly better than anything last season's Championship could offer. Because of that increase in quality coupled with our own quality-plateau in defence we are less able to withstand the pressure we invite. That said, I think McDermott is that good a man-manager that, should he stay (who knows what the new owners will do should we remain in the bottom three), we will continue to play with the same level of confidence we have throughout his tenure. The question for me is whether the quality is there. That, as we know, is debatable and we'll only find out if we have enough quality to stay up should we be in 17th place or higher come game 38.

As for the original question, for me again it's debatable but what do you consider in the question's parameters? Individual players? Team as a whole? Do we include management in that? If we're talking just the team as a whole then 06/07 was streets ahead of anything we have now. It had greater energy, greater defensive ability, more attacking prowess, the lot. BUT...the heartbeat of that team was the Sidwell/Harper midfield pairing with wide players who were able to actually take the creativity side by the scruff of the neck and make things happen. Predominantly Sidwell was the engine room while Harper was the oil that helped Sidwell work. The likes of Little, Convey, Seol, Shorey from full-back and, to a lesser degree, Stephen Hunt (who isn't fit to lace any of the other three winger's boots) provided the creative aspect. Sidwell leaving was disastrous although we didn't know it at the time (the countless debates about Gunnarsson being an adequate replacement were testament to that) and the failure to adequately replace him with someone with similar verve, energy and ability proved catastrophic as the 07/08 season wore on. But what is not often mooted is the failure to find an adequate wide player to cover for the loss of Little (who was out injured for the season) and Seol (who was sold to Fulham in a player for player swap with Liam f*cking Rosenior). With no true right winger and a lack of a replacement for Sidwell we lacked two massive cogs in what was the Coppell wheel, the creativity out wide and the energy in midfield. Those are the two major failings for the relegation season and not even a master tactician could really hope to save us with that lack of quality in such key areas. And that doesn't even begin to take into account Coppell's failings as a coach and manager.

Now you may question why I have started on about the team as a whole but then isolated the likes of Little and Sidwell individually. Well they are the players who made that team work, they were key players, numbers 1 and 2 on the team sheet (or 4 and 7 if you prefer). And that is where for me the current team seems to fall down in comparison at the minute, although I hasten to add that my own Premier League jury is still very much out. There are no players in our team at the minute who you feel are good enough to actually make the team, players who are completely indispensible. There are no players who I feel are of significantly higher quality than all others that, if they were out injured or suspended, I would bemoan the misfortune of losing them and feel the team is significantly weakened by their absence. The individual quality of the majority of the squad is vastly similar to each other I feel, but the lack of team-making players is a concern to me and for that reason, as it stands currently, I feel we will put in a valiant effort but finish in the relegation zone, just coming up short of what is required. So we're not that bad in comparison IMO.

[Royalwaster]

HAHNEMANN VS MCCARTHY = HAHNEMANN

MURTY - GUNTER/CUMMINGS =MURTY

GORKSS - SONKO = EVEN

PEARCE - INGY - 06 INGY

SHOREY - SHOREY =Errr...

KEBE - LITTLE =LITTLE

LEDGE AND JEM - HARPS AND SIDWELL = HARPS AND SIDWELL

MCANUFF - CONVEY = CONVEY

DOYLE - POG = DOYLE

LITA - ALF = ALF


What would you pick?

I thought Convey was only really good in the Championship winning season - did he play many games in the Prem? Seemed to think we used to mainly play with Little, Hunt and/or Seol on the wings in 2006/07 and then in 2007/08 with Hunt and Oster ... with Little injured and Seol sold. I'd say Kebe, McC and McA are better than Hunt/Oster ....

[Mid Sussex Royal]

I think this squad is better than the 07/08 side.

Sidwell had gone which affected Harper's game, Shorey gave up, Sonko was never the same after the injury the previous season, Little never played from memory, and Doyle struggled for form - something he has done all his career in a struggling side.

difference is the Prem now is much stronger - dar more sides have spent big.

Back in 2007 we could beat sides like City and Spurs at home...

[MmmMonsterMunch]

In answer to the OP you cannot really compare. The landscape of the PL has changed so much since we were last there & the £ side of things has got even more ridiculous.

Without question it is a harder league & that 06-07 team would not finish 8th now IMHO.

I think our keepers & strikers are better than last time for example but midfield is where we lack. Defensively I would say we're about the same - if for example Mariappa & Pearce had played together for 2-3 straight seasons before playing together in the PL, you'd fancy them to do quite well.

It ain't over til it's over baby.

[Ian Royal]

HAHNEMANN VS MCCARTHY = HAHNEMANN

MURTY - GUNTER/CUMMINGS =MURTY

GORKSS - SONKO = EVEN

PEARCE - INGY - 06 INGY

SHOREY - SHOREY =Errr...

KEBE - LITTLE =LITTLE

LEDGE AND JEM - HARPS AND SIDWELL = HARPS AND SIDWELL

MCANUFF - CONVEY = CONVEY

DOYLE - POG = DOYLE

LITA - ALF = ALF


What would you pick?

I thought Convey was only really good in the Championship winning season - did he play many games in the Prem? Seemed to think we used to mainly play with Little, Hunt and/or Seol on the wings in 2006/07 and then in 2007/08 with Hunt and Oster ... with Little injured and Seol sold. I'd say Kebe, McC and McA are better than Hunt/Oster ....

Yes,

Clearly there's no point comparing this team with 06/07. That team finished 8th and was absolute quality - despite a couple of injury problems.

Compare this side with 07/08 - a shambles of a team that still nearly stayed up.

Hahnemann - McCarthy / Federici
Rosenior - Cummings / Gunter
Shorey - Shorey / Harte - Even but only because whilst Shorey is less good now, he actually seems to want to play for us
Ingimarsson - Gorkss
Duberry - Pearce
Gunnarsson / Cisse - Leigertwood
Harper - Karacan
Oster - Kebe
Hunt - McAnuff even Hunt's excellent first half evens out with his terrible second half to get to about McAnuff's level
Doyle - Hunt Let's not forget Doyle was terrible that season
Kitson - Pog - just about, Pog isn't likely to fall to bits at the slightest touch

Sonko - Mariappa
Bikey - Morrison
Lita - Roberts by a mile
Long - ALF
Fae - Guthrie

I'm sure I've missed some, and this is just my view of course.


Looking at that 07/08 team in hindsight it's fricking miracle we nearly survived, most years I think that side would have finished bottom.

[leon]

I still can't believe we went up as well. Very surreal.

Those games against West Ham and Southampton were key. Our nerves don't seem to be holding up to the pressure this year.

Doesn't come down to nerves mate, it comes down to the quality we're up against which is significantly better than anything last season's Championship could offer. Because of that increase in quality coupled with our own quality-plateau in defence we are less able to withstand the pressure we invite. That said, I think McDermott is that good a man-manager that, should he stay (who knows what the new owners will do should we remain in the bottom three), we will continue to play with the same level of confidence we have throughout his tenure. The question for me is whether the quality is there. That, as we know, is debatable and we'll only find out if we have enough quality to stay up should we be in 17th place or higher come game 38.

As for the original question, for me again it's debatable but what do you consider in the question's parameters? Individual players? Team as a whole? Do we include management in that? If we're talking just the team as a whole then 06/07 was streets ahead of anything we have now. It had greater energy, greater defensive ability, more attacking prowess, the lot. BUT...the heartbeat of that team was the Sidwell/Harper midfield pairing with wide players who were able to actually take the creativity side by the scruff of the neck and make things happen. Predominantly Sidwell was the engine room while Harper was the oil that helped Sidwell work. The likes of Little, Convey, Seol, Shorey from full-back and, to a lesser degree, Stephen Hunt (who isn't fit to lace any of the other three winger's boots) provided the creative aspect. Sidwell leaving was disastrous although we didn't know it at the time (the countless debates about Gunnarsson being an adequate replacement were testament to that) and the failure to adequately replace him with someone with similar verve, energy and ability proved catastrophic as the 07/08 season wore on. But what is not often mooted is the failure to find an adequate wide player to cover for the loss of Little (who was out injured for the season) and Seol (who was sold to Fulham in a player for player swap with Liam f*cking Rosenior). With no true right winger and a lack of a replacement for Sidwell we lacked two massive cogs in what was the Coppell wheel, the creativity out wide and the energy in midfield. Those are the two major failings for the relegation season and not even a master tactician could really hope to save us with that lack of quality in such key areas. And that doesn't even begin to take into account Coppell's failings as a coach and manager.

Now you may question why I have started on about the team as a whole but then isolated the likes of Little and Sidwell individually. Well they are the players who made that team work, they were key players, numbers 1 and 2 on the team sheet (or 4 and 7 if you prefer). And that is where for me the current team seems to fall down in comparison at the minute, although I hasten to add that my own Premier League jury is still very much out. There are no players in our team at the minute who you feel are good enough to actually make the team, players who are completely indispensible. There are no players who I feel are of significantly higher quality than all others that, if they were out injured or suspended, I would bemoan the misfortune of losing them and feel the team is significantly weakened by their absence. The individual quality of the majority of the squad is vastly similar to each other I feel, but the lack of team-making players is a concern to me and for that reason, as it stands currently, I feel we will put in a valiant effort but finish in the relegation zone, just coming up short of what is required. So we're not that bad in comparison IMO.

great stuff. Don't agree with all of it, but very perceptive. Clearly Sidwell was a loss, and Little - for all our direct play he was our bit of art, but especially agreed on Seol. One of the most underrated Reading players. This season? The way we'll stay up is to get that high tempo bustle back, get Roberts and Pogregnyak in defenders faces and get the balls in from the wings. It won't be nice, and certainly not sustainable but it might keep us up.

[chilipepper91]

Clearly there's no point comparing this team with 06/07. That team finished 8th and was absolute quality - despite a couple of injury problems.

Compare this side with 07/08 - a shambles of a team that still nearly stayed up.

Looking at that 07/08 team in hindsight it's fricking miracle we nearly survived, most years I think that side would have finished bottom.

It's an inherent problem whenever you compare teams then and now but the league, I would say, is much stronger now. Would that team have stayed up this year? Almost certainly not. Would this team have survived 07/08, let alone 06/07? Again, doubtful.

Not laying a blame on anyone in the thread but you can't base your own performance without judging those around you - a nice thing to say that 36 points (our 07/08 total) would have seen us escape relegation in 08/09 and 09/10 (we'd have even survived last season on GD) but that ain't how it works. Would we have survived those years I listed? More likely than the year we were relegated, for sure.

Are there three worse teams than us? Right now, I'm not sure. We seem to lack a cutting edge, that star quality to turn losses into draws and draws into wins. If we can get a bit of consistency, beat teams around us and hope that others around us take points off each other then we could be safe. But I don't think our fate will be decided by our own ability to get points, more those around us failing to escape the battle too.

[Ian Royal]

It's an odd one for me, we're riding a bit of a knife edge right now and we could easily go either way. We've shown enough quality that we could and maybe should have won two, three, maybe even four games already this season, but for individual errors or seriously sub-par performances.

We could cut out those errors and start seeing out games. Scoring isn't a problem, and McDermott does have a history of starting a bit cluelessly and then sorting his shit out quite quickly. Although often with a late signing or a loan. Which hasn't happened this time. Do that and we could still easily finish mid-table. It's just a question of playing slightly better football, seeing out games and firming up a bit in defence.

Equally, this run of form and poor luck could also carry on for another 5 or 6 games without a win, in which case we're in serious serious trouble and looking more like finishing bottom than surviving.

The real positive for me, is that we've seemed to be riding that knife edge under McDermott every season so far and he's got us to not only fall the right side and improve, but to go on a stonking run. Fingers crossed he can do it again.

[Wimb]

It's an odd one for me, we're riding a bit of a knife edge right now and we could easily go either way. We've shown enough quality that we could and maybe should have won two, three, maybe even four games already this season, but for individual errors or seriously sub-par performances.

We could cut out those errors and start seeing out games. Scoring isn't a problem, and McDermott does have a history of starting a bit cluelessly and then sorting his shit out quite quickly. Although often with a late signing or a loan. Which hasn't happened this time. Do that and we could still easily finish mid-table. It's just a question of playing slightly better football, seeing out games and firming up a bit in defence.

Equally, this run of form and poor luck could also carry on for another 5 or 6 games without a win, in which case we're in serious serious trouble and looking more like finishing bottom than surviving.

The real positive for me, is that we've seemed to be riding that knife edge under McDermott every season so far and he's got us to not only fall the right side and improve, but to go on a stonking run. Fingers crossed he can do it again.

^^^^^ sums it up quite well tbh