Adkins too cautious

[paddy20]

Zana and Cureton's volley, meant to say good to have an intelligent discussion on tactics and stats whilst dodging the flack and insults from some others ha ha

[mambo3]

It occurs to me that perhaps Adkins is behind the times when it comes to possession football. Lots of statistics say the more possession you have the more points you get. But surely the quality of possession is important and hard to quantify. Generally the quality of the play and players will result in more possession but the success has nothing to do with possession per se. We probably had a high % of possession when we first got promoted to the premiership but it wasn't possession football. This emphasis that Adkins gives to this is one of the reasons there is no real pace in the team anymore.

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

quality of the pass is more important than the number of passes

[NewCorkSeth]

Mambo3 = Paddy20

[Pepe the Horseman]

Mambo3 = Paddy20

Pretty sure the last six posts have just been the same person talking to themselves.

[paddy20]

Mambo3 = Paddy20

Pretty sure the last six posts have just been the same person talking to themselves.

Ha ha no just on the same intelligence level ( duck)

[Zana Badawi]

Statistics show that more points are gained by teams with more possession. I think those statistics were based going back 10 years throughout the top leagues in Europe. The key is whether those successful teams set out tactically to retain a high % of possession or whether it was due to their superiority over the opposing team on that date. I suspect the latter.Some football tacticians have used this information to say , ah, all we have to do is keep possession more than the opposing team and we will win more games. I think this thinking is flawed and is based on an incorrect interpretation of the data. My guess is that this tactic of keeping possession during most of the time that data was collected did not exist. I predict that over the next 2/3 years teams using this tactic, and having low quality possession data will be performing worse and not better than those with lower possession rates. In short keeping possession can be harmful!!

I was being facetious and flippant, neither of which is helpful I suppose.
I know the more you have possession the less your opponent has possession giving them less time to score - which I cant argue is a good thing; but really the point I was trying to make was that you could fashion a technique where you just aimlessly kick the ball out near their corner flag ala Rugby in the bad old days. You could do that after you take the lead to make it a killer technique!

I dont actually know how the possession statistic is worked out to be honest, but as it always seems to add up to 100%, is it (Your Possession + Opponents Possession) / Total Possession, where Total Possession equals time ball is in play rather than Total Possession equals to 90 minutes (plus added time).

Given that this statistic doesnt actually measure how long your opponent has the ball, may I suggest that a quantifier of quality posession could be

Total Minutes Opposition has the ball
or even better
Total Minutes Opposition has the ball in your half.

You could turn it into a ratio by dividing by 90 if you like, but I dont actually see a reason why to do so.

[Ian Royal]

Has anyone ever actually advocated possession for possession's sake, or playing exactly like Swansea.

In fact, I was pretty sure that most people who've put the possession argument forward have been talking about much more Coppellesque football than Rodgersesque. And that they've been talking about quality possession.

Having the ball but doing nothing with it is marginally better than not having the ball. Whilst you won't score, you also mostly won't conceed. You can be effective with a low possession proportion, but only if the possession you do have is quality and you're good at defending.

You have to be much better at what you do than we were last season to make that work. And when you're dealing with clubs with players so much better than you, the more you take the low possession, solid in defence and clinical in attack route, the more likely you are to fail in the PL unless you are very very good at it.

This is why so many people want us to show an improvement in controlling and retaining the ball. The ideal situation is being able to pass around the back to frustrate teams and slow the game down when its to advantage. Maybe drawing the opposition out leaving space. But also to be able to shift the ball forward quickly, sometimes through short passing and movement and sometimes more directly.

The change of pace of play is the real thing to aim for because it's what catches teams out. You have to get comfortable with the passing first though. And that can sometimes seem like things are getting worse as it slows everything down and stifles creativity. Once you've got the base, you then turn the attack back up to 11 and you're a better team for the ropey transitional patch. If it goes right.

[winchester_royal]

It occurs to me that perhaps Adkins is behind the times when it comes to possession football. Lots of statistics say the more possession you have the more points you get. But surely the quality of possession is important and hard to quantify. Generally the quality of the play and players will result in more possession but the success has nothing to do with possession per se. We probably had a high % of possession when we first got promoted to the premiership but it wasn't possession football. This emphasis that Adkins gives to this is one of the reasons there is no real pace in the team anymore.

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

quality of the pass is more important than the number of passes

Wow, if only everyone had the killer insight to make this kind of observation.

I'm sure the last thing Adkins says to his players before they step onto the pitch is 'Boys I don't really care where you pass it, just make sure that you do pass it lots and lots of times. Possession is all that counts in football.'

Or, maybe, he's trying to get them to be more comfortable with retaining possession so that ultimately they are able to keep the ball while they probe for that 'quality' pass that opens up the opposition... And, maybe, it takes time for players to become comfortable enough playing this way to be able to move the ball around with sufficient accuracy and tempo to find the opportunity for that 'quality' pass. But, maybe, it's worth persevering with as when it's done right it's a very effective way of playing.

Unlikely I know, but something to ponder.

[Ian Royal]

Yes, it's partly ability, but it's also partly decision making. Until the players are comfortable and used to passing it around, in tighter conditions and through smaller gaps. They're going to be less good at judging when they can should make a telling creative pass.

And it'll take them time to learn when to move and where and for the others to also know when and where they'll go.

Taking much longer than I'd like. But it's not like we've had a settled team to make it easy either.

[mambo3]

Mambo3 = Paddy20

Pretty sure the last six posts have just been the same person talking to themselves.

Ha ha no just on the same intelligence level ( duck)

Sorry I forgot, I shudnt agree with anyone. Adkins system is really the right way to look at things if he was Manager of Barcelona, PSG, Bayern, Real........etc.

I thought if you were a professional footballer you should be able to adjust in a short space of time.

[winchester_royal]

I thought if you were a professional footballer you should be able to adjust in a short space of time.

Oh, perhaps someone should try telling the Man Utd players that then

[paddy20]

Must admit that I too thought there was much more to it than just holding possession, that is until Adkins, in one of his after match dialogues following a defeat said ' yes but we had 67% possession'. At that point I wondered

[SPARTA]

Mambo3 = Paddy20

Pretty sure the last six posts have just been the same person talking to themselves.

Ha ha no just on the same intelligence level ( duck)

Is that even possible?

[SydenhamRoyal]

He is now saying Drenthe won't be ready to play a full game for weeks! How on earth does he think players will get match fit. Not starting in under 21's. Is he really saying you are not really in my plans? If he was fit for the bench and looked good when he came on why is he saying weeks instead of days? Its not as if we are spoilt for choice when it comes to creative players. Or is it punishment? We seem to have a big problem with the time it takes for players to get back from injury

Could simply be disinformation for the opposition

[ZacNaloen]

Drenthe may well not be able to play 90 minutes for some weeks yet. But that doesn't mean he's a.s on the pitch.


Adkins is qualified Physio I think I trust him over an exciteable Dutchman when it comes to issues of fitness and readiness.

[3points]

when Swansea came to the Mad Stad last season I found their style very dull to watch. It did feel like possession for possessions stake to me at times and similar to what Adkins has been trying to instill in our team this year. Even Arsenal have struggled in recent seasons to break down well organised / physical sides and then have a lot more class than we do. I think we lack the injections of pace and individual brilliance that the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal have to make a true passing game work well.

[Platypuss]

I think we lack the injections of pace and individual brilliance that the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal have to make a true passing game work well.

Yeah, cheers for that insight. Very illuminating.

[paddy20]

when Swansea came to the Mad Stad last season I found their style very dull to watch. It did feel like possession for possessions stake to me at times and similar to what Adkins has been trying to instill in our team this year. Even Arsenal have struggled in recent seasons to break down well organised / physical sides and then have a lot more class than we do. I think we lack the injections of pace and individual brilliance that the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal have to make a true passing game work well.

True. Pity we haven't got Jimmy still

[mambo3]

when Swansea came to the Mad Stad last season I found their style very dull to watch. It did feel like possession for possessions stake to me at times and similar to what Adkins has been trying to instill in our team this year. Even Arsenal have struggled in recent seasons to break down well organised / physical sides and then have a lot more class than we do. I think we lack the injections of pace and individual brilliance that the likes of Barcelona and Arsenal have to make a true passing game work well.

True. Pity we haven't got Jimmy still

He cant get into the palace side!!!! In fact there is not many Reading Players that have excelled after leaving the club - Tells you something!

[mambo3]

Drenthe may well not be able to play 90 minutes for some weeks yet. But that doesn't mean he's a.s on the pitch.


Adkins is qualified Physio I think I trust him over an exciteable Dutchman when it comes to issues of fitness and readiness.

So was Josef Mengele