Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

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Ian Royal
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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by Ian Royal » 22 Dec 2015 18:16

Winston Smith
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Winston Smith I am amazed that there is anyone left in the world that thinks in terms of fixed 4-4-2's or 4-5-1's etc no matter how hard Sky Sports try to push the idea.

Every formation is adaptable and changeable depending on such a vast amount of factors - the passage of play, the opponent as a team, the opponent as individuals, how the game has gone so far with success or failure on certain moves etc. Formations are little more than a way telly programmes can try to guess who is playing where. They see a team sheet and guess at who will roughly be where, which is in itself misleading but also completely misses the point of how the natural ebb and flow of a game means the trained instructions that players have practiced all week/month come into play and demand that they react in a certain way which a fixed formation doesn't support.

Could not disagree more! I think formations are fundamentally part of the game. It gives the team structure and helps build passages of play and helps counter the opposition. I totally understand the game is fluid but these things are worked but you do try and have a game plan and implement it. Just watch how the team settles back into the formation when there is a lull in the play eg if playing 4-4-2 you will see the two banks of four when, say, a goal kick is being taken.


not disagreeing that when nothing at all is happening that may be roughly where you fall back to. But the modern day game is made up of fairly short passages of play (down to less than 25 seconds was the last I heard) and for each one depending on what is happening, where ball is, where other players are, what has gone before etc each player will have in individual instruction to carry out and that is very often completely at odds with his position in the world of TV fixed formations.


It's got to be viewed as short hand for a basic structure and approach. Obviously player's don't stick to specific areas of the pitch like automatons. But you'd have to be crazy (I don't think this really applies to you) to deny that managers set up specific shapes for the team to structure itself defensively and offensively, with certain patterns of play aimed for. There is obviously scope within that to interchange and adapt to what the opposition are doing, but fundamentally teams stick to their game plan, of which 'formation' is a big part.

The problem comes when people put too much emphasis on a specific shape ahead of the overall interaction and flexibility within the team. Like just saying someone should play 4-4-2. There's a host of variants within that basic shape and the instructions for how to play within it are more important than that base 'formation'

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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by Old Biscuitman » 22 Dec 2015 20:15

Winston Smith I am amazed that there is anyone left in the world that thinks in terms of fixed 4-4-2's or 4-5-1's etc no matter how hard Sky Sports try to push the idea.

Every formation is adaptable and changeable depending on such a vast amount of factors - the passage of play, the opponent as a team, the opponent as individuals, how the game has gone so far with success or failure on certain moves etc. Formations are little more than a way telly programmes can try to guess who is playing where. They see a team sheet and guess at who will roughly be where, which is in itself misleading but also completely misses the point of how the natural ebb and flow of a game means the trained instructions that players have practiced all week/month come into play and demand that they react in a certain way which a fixed formation doesn't support.


Perhaps, but this requires players of a certain intelligence who can read a game and react accordingly. Otherwise, to have the instincts of the naturally very gifted. and they don't come along that often.

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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by maffff » 22 Dec 2015 23:17

PistolPete It's always amazed me how managers pick teams with players playing out of postition. Tottenham and England seem to have done this for years.

Right now it seems we have a great squad for the league, yet not enough players who can play a system harmoniously. So, I'm going to try to work out what positions we have and see what fits. Do I have it right?

Blackman : He's an inside forward to be played on the right as part of a front 3

Vydra: A fox in the box to be played with a workhorse striker, like Deeny.

Sa: Striker to play with a partner. Not particularly a workhorse, nor plays on the shoulder of the last man.

Liburd: A striker who wins his battles, leads the line, works hard and scores with head and feet. Unproven at this level.

McCleary: A right winger who will sometimes do his defensive duties

Piazon: Plays on the left or centre of an attacking midfield 3 (behind a striker), nothing else it seems!

John: Left side of an attacking midfield three or winger with limited defensive duties

Robson Kanu: An inside forward on the left as part of a three or a fairly hard working winger. Not as hard working as S Hunt for example, but more than John. Probably

Hurtado: Alledgedly plays wide right or left, in a front 3 or midfield 4. Ridiculous that we still don't know.

Williams: Best with the freedom to break forwards. A poor mans Toure, needs a very defensive mid with him,
Or, ideally two. Not the passer Piazon is though.

Quinn: Versatile, left central
Midfielder, capable of many roles.

Norwood: A playmaker with reasonable defensive qualities. With Quinn, our most versatile midfielder.

Fernadez: Similar to Quinn and Norwood, excellent passer but not such a tackler.

Tshibola: Hard working, ball winning defense minded central midfielder. Can play in a two or three.

Kuhl: A deep lying playmaker. Sits in a 3, or with a very hardworking other.

Hector: Has played with good effect, the 'anchorman' role. Leaves us light in central defence though!


So. What do we know?

Vydra and Blackman can't play together if we are to play players in their best positions...

To play Blackman you need to play a front 3, which means you can't play Vydra. In fact, unless you start Liburd, you can't play Vydra without Sa. If you play Blackman, you can't play McCleary. Strangely, for some kind of symmetry, which is usual, Either HRK or Piazon must play on the other flank, neither of whom are particularly reliable.

Blackman has become a problem we don't dare do without!

Ideally, I'd say with all fit, we ought to set up

4-2-3-1:

Sa
HRK- Piazon-Blackman
Norwood-Tshibola
Defence

Or:

4-3-3

HRK-Sa-Blackman
Quinn-Norwood-Williams
Defence

Or finally, 4-4-2:

Sa-Vydra
HRK-Quinn-Norwood-McCleary
Defence

So, thoughts?


Why is defence playing up front?

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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by russyb » 23 Dec 2015 10:11

Lower West
Winston Smith I am amazed that there is anyone left in the world that thinks in terms of fixed 4-4-2's or 4-5-1's etc no matter how hard Sky Sports try to push the idea.



Watford play a 4-4-2 formation. :wink:

With an extremely hard working front 2. The team is set up to counter attack.

With players of more limited abilities. Little point in trying a formation that doesn't work. As McD proved last time. Use the strengths of the players available to determine the formation (s). Not like Clarke who by using Piazon on the left. Made the left defensively weak and often exposed. More so when Piazon favours a more central position.



This... how much better was Piazon played in the more central role with no pressure, we got the best out of him since he came to the club, and this is the point of playing players in their preferred positions. Blackman the other day did a job but doesn't always look happiest hugging the right hand touchline.

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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by Sutekh » 27 Dec 2015 09:00

I don't think you can play Vydra and Blackman and HRK in the same team. I also think the squad is unbalanced with too many players whose best positions are the same and therefore there needs to be some tough decisions made on who to keep and who release/sell.

1. Vydra needs a big target man to play off.

2. Blackman can play OK wide right but I think is better in a central role.

3. HRK can play centrally or wide left and this season is so much better than the poor performances of the previous two seasons

4. John is the best wide left player we have at the club and should be starting games there regularly

5. McLeary has been affected by something this season (injury?) and is just not quite right however he is still the best right winger at the club.

6. We are over-blessed with talent in midfield (I'd suggest it's quite probably the most talented midfield squad in the division; Williams, Norwood, "Toshiba", Quinn, Fernandez) but no-one seems to have a clue what is the best line up and you can't keep them all happy (least not at this level of the game).

7. Piazon and Sa are excellent as a central striker but are continually playing out of position and, particularly in Piazon's case, stuck into roles which are just not their game.

8. No-one's seen anything of Hurtado to give any opinion of whether he will be of any benefit in any role as yet. What there has been of him is a right sided player who keeps running into the centre - no doubt down to Clarke's seeming hatred of playing with any width.

9. At the back we are under-resourced and inexperienced, Gunter is the best experienced right back at the club in a squad of 1

10. Ferdinand is the best central defender but is consistently injured.

11. Taylor is a good quality DEFENSIVE left back and Obita, on his day, is a good quality ATTACKING left back

12. McShane is a quality centre back giving us a partnership of just two central defenders to rely on but that we can never play as one is consistently injured.

13. Hector is a defensive midfielder in my opinion and not really a central defender. Yes he can play there but he is a little too much of a liability at this level.

14. Cooper looks to have the makings of a better defender than Hector but needs the experience of playing to see if he can make the final jump.

15. As to the goalkeepers, well I have no clue what on earth Clarke was doing there, it is quite unbelievable the decisions he made in that area. Bond is a player who could be something but is not as good as any previous Reading keeper stretching back into the last century. OK he might become a good keeper but there is just too much he needs to get experience on; kicking/distribution, communication, decision making to want to blood at this level of the game without a class act settled defence ahead of him

Al-Habsi is a competent number 2 but always has a mistake in him.

January, therefore, should be used to

a) sort out the mess of loans, I'd try to take Taylor and John permanently leaving 4 on loan (if I was able to cut short any loans it would be Vydra and Hector)
b) either get an experienced goalkeeper in, even a short term deal and
c) sort out the defence to make it clear who are the first choices and settle on the method of playing
d) or build for next year by making a decision to bear with younger players (e.g. Bond and Cooper) and let them gain the experience they need and see where that leaves them at the end of the season

Finally Brian needs to stop the idiotic constant fiddling about with the side that both the previous managers did, depending on who we were playing, and let the opposition worry about handling us.


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Ian Royal
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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by Ian Royal » 28 Dec 2015 23:19

John again proving he's a super sub, not a starter.

Either 3 upfront
RF: Blackman / McCleary
ST: Sa / HRK / Liburd
LF: HRK / Vydra / Piazon / John

With three midfielders:
Playmaker: Norwood / Fernandez / Kuhl
LM: Quinn / Tshibola
RM: Williams / Tshibola

Or play 4-4-2
RW: McCleary / Hurtado
LW: HRK / Hurtado / John
ST1: Sa / HRK / Liburd
ST2: Vydra / Piazon / HRK

With Norwood and Quinn / Tshibola

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Re: Playing players in correct positions- the conundrum

by CountryRoyal » 29 Dec 2015 00:24

We play some really high quality stuff at times but our problems can be summed up by;

- Not enough tempo
- Overplaying
- Sloppy defending

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