#AskJason

[Royal Lady]

Thanks for that I'd never seen those examples before. That's fair enough, if that's what he's basing his comments on. TBF, I'm not giving him stick as such, just questioning whether sometimes he might go over the top a bit. Still think those who sent in pathetic questions to #AskJason are the ones who should be getting flak, rather than me for my comments though.

[melonhead]

My thoughts exactly BF - the difference between JR and MG is that in many peoples eyes JR's has in some cases trivialised the fight against racism, MG hasn't. The responses seem proportionate to this perception.

How has he trivialised it? By having a different opinion to you?

He does seem to play the race card quite a lot. He moans there are not enough black managers/coaches - but he himself has said he is not interested in coaching/managing - I wonder if he has any concrete examples of black people being actively denied the chance to manager/coach. He's a very eloquent speaker and would be good for Kick it Out etc, but it does seem that he looks for problems where there aren't any. IMO. Did he answer any questions in the end btw?

he does play "the race card" alot.is it because its a problem that permeates daily life, goes largely unchallenged,and he has a platform from which he is able to challenge it?
to say there isnt a problem without actually looking into it in any way, and leap straight to - hes blowing it out of all proportion, there is no problem - is probably just indicative of the insidious nature of the racism deep within your heart

[melonhead]

My thoughts exactly BF - the difference between JR and MG is that in many peoples eyes JR's has in some cases trivialised the fight against racism, MG hasn't. The responses seem proportionate to this perception.

How has he trivialised it? By having a different opinion to you?

No, he has trivialised it by screaming racism from his pedestal at every given opportunity without a second thought about the incident in question. It is not only a different opinion to me, it is a different opinion to 99.9% of people from all races and walks of life.

He is playing an admirable part in the battle against racism in football, and has a huge part to play i'm sure. But, just because he is on a pedestal it doesn't make his opinion more valid than anybody elses, it just makes him louder. When all those around you, regardless of race, are telling you you're wrong, you probably are.

If he champions his beliefs with intelligence, aimed his efforts at the causes and rightly denounced examples of racims within the game he can be a figurehead in removing racism from the game.

very emotive language there

screaming, from his pedestal etc

sounds like youve already made up your mind

he has a platform, and feels it his duty to use it to shine a light into dingy areas of our nation.


personally i think he was wrong in his assessment of the monkey g8 thing.and in that one particular instance i think he has damaged his cause slightly.
but the rest of what he has said on race is pretty much spot on imo. and these people were already using the - goes on about race thing alot- just shut up jason , there is no real problem - thing before monkey g8 happened.
and its clear from the daft response in these questions that people are being irrationally angry about people rasiing race issues in ways that make it looks like they might be a little bit racist, thus lending weight to his argument.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Thanks for that I'd never seen those examples before. That's fair enough, if that's what he's basing his comments on. TBF, I'm not giving him stick as such, just questioning whether sometimes he might go over the top a bit. Still think those who sent in pathetic questions to #AskJason are the ones who should be getting flak, rather than me for my comments though.

Aye, it's not like you insisted JR was screaming non-stop absolutes from atop a plinth, then attempted to deflect criticism of said ridiculous strawman argument with the one times table.

[melonhead]

What most urgently needs to be resolved, is why there are so few black managers, or senior FA employees etc. Are appointments made proportionate to applications? If so, then why aren't black people applying for positions? If not, why aren't black people being as successful in there applications? This needs to be reviewed. Until we understand where and when people are of dropping out of the system, we cannot understand and work on improving it and making it more fair and better represented.

Yes, I agree.

I'd like to see some stats about ethnicity of coaches at grass roots level, then youth team coaches, then reserve coaches, then management.
Roberts would probably get more respect if he spent more time encouraging young black people to become grass roots coaches, youth coaches and the like as opposed to just criticising a lack of black managers and demanding more.

A top down approach of just appointing a manager on the basis that they are black is a bad idea. If they are underqualified and lack any prior experience, they will likely fail, get the sack and merely discourage others from management.

tbf the only professional football coach I know is black. He didn't merely complain that nobody offered him a management position, he started at the bottom.

think the stats are out there, and if i remember correctly the disconnect is somewhere between the grass roots coaching/badge taking, and getting a job.
IIRC there are more than expected going into the system at the bottom end, but many less than expected coming out at the top.

[melonhead]

I don't want Roberts et al to be humbly grateful, I would just like him to see how relatively tolerant our society now is and for ambitious black people they have every opportunity to succeed ,if they are any good and not just if they are white.

John Barnes didn't get the sack for being black, he got it for being an unsuccessful manager and, as other posters have said, Roberts is really looking for preferential treatment for black coaches rather than equal.
That can't be right and tokenism is surely something to be abhorred as much as blatant racism.

I'm sure you didn't mean it, but there's a real undercurrent of 'them and us' about this section of your post.

'Tolerance' of black people?

And as with TSW's assertion that Roberts is 'screaming racism' at every opportunity, I'd be interested in evidence that Roberts is seeking preferential treatment for black coaches.

"Tolerance" in the much wider sense-blacks,asians,gays,disabled people etc.-our society(if we take white middle-class as the starting point of "our society") is definitely more tolerant of others or minorities than it ever has been IMHO.

to admit things are better is not to decide things could not be imporoved further

[melonhead]

I'm not sure "integration" is quite right-a lot of minorities choose not to fully integrate.

understandable really

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Well I've yet to hear of any black person moaning that they can't get a job in football coaching/management - and until I do, I'll continue to believe that Jason Roberts is just inventing a problem that isn't actually there. Thanks then.

Who are you thanking?

Anyway, you can only hear a black person if you bother listening. i.e. look it up - took me a few seconds to find two examples.

Case Study 1 - Luther Blissett
Luther Blissett was one of the first black footballers to play in Italy, but his hopes of a ground-breaking impact in management were not realised. As a player, he gained experience abroad, played in every division of the Football League, became an England international and has since completed his coaching qualifications. To date, his only coaching jobs in the Football Leagues were spells at York City and Watford.

"I got my qualifications, started applying for jobs and didn't get interviews. I started applying at 30 and I'm now in my early 50s. People say persevere, but how long can you persevere? I started doing coaching at 17 and always knew that I wanted to stay in the game and contribute something. But eventually, you think, 'Shall I do this forever?' Attitudes have changed in many areas, but in terms of the boardroom and the organisation, there is often not the trust and belief that they can do that job. There's a perception that they can't do things. Some chairmen possibly don't want a black person to be the face of their club. They run the club and make their decisions.

"Statistics say it's getting more difficult. There are fewer English managers in the Premier League, they're taking more jobs in the Championship and it all has a knock-on effect.There needs to be more transparency. You apply for a job in football and you don't know the criteria. It's down to the personal choice of the chairman. All you want to know is that you've had a proper shout. I got the odd letter saying I didn't have the experience. That's the biggest load of rubbish. How do you get the experience if no one gives you a job?"

Case Study 2 - Viv Anderson
Viv Anderson made history when he became the first black player to represent England in 1978. The enormous progress that black players have made over the past three decades, however, has not been replicated in the dug-out.

Anderson's first job in coaching was as player-manager with Barnsley in 1993-94 and he kept them in what is now the Championship. He then moved to Middlesbrough where he spent seven years as assistant to Bryan Robson. In that time, Middlesbrough achieved two promotions and reached two League Cup and one FA Cup finals. Since leaving Middlesbrough in 2001, he has not had another job offer and now runs his own company. "The statistics are scary," Anderson said. "I'm disappointed but not surprised and it's an issue which needs to be addressed. I would say my CV is pretty good, but I've just got on with doing my own thing.

"There's an unconscious racism. Black kids want role models. There were successful black players and the next thing is to have successful black managers. At the moment, they're not getting the opportunity. You get to a level and there are barriers in front of you. It used to be thought that black players were flair players - that you couldn't be in a position of responsibility. They said we couldn't play in the cold, but I used to wear short sleeves and my job was to defend - that was what Brian Clough told me to do. I think there is a preconception now that they can't perform in the boardroom."

So is there a stereotype of black players being good athletes, but perhaps not such good thinkers? "Exactly right," said Anderson.

EDIT: (a third)

Sol Campbell

"I want to start abroad," said the 39-year-old in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. "There are no opportunities for me here, not until attitudes change anyway. Everyone has to ask themselves why there are not more black managers in this country and why the likes of [former Sheffield United striker] Brian Deane have to go abroad [to Sarpsborg 08 in Norway] to get a chance. I've spoken to other black players who want to coach and they feel the same, that attitudes here are archaic. I hope and pray the environment changes."


----

Anyway, if more black people came out and said they were turned down, I expect the next 'line of defence' would be that it was nothing to do with colour, they just weren't good enough.

Sorry, don't buy their reasoning in the slightest. There are countless non-black would be managers who have exactly the same problem applying for jobs and getting nowhere. If any of those 3 (and any successful well known player for that matter, regardless of race) applied to manage Reading Town , Binfield or any club at that level they'd get the job in a shot.

Sol Campbell saw himself as too good for Notts C after 1 game and I would bet my last £1 he hasn't applied for any jobs below that level. "There are no opportunities for me here". Absolute bullshit.

[Victor Meldrew]

Well I've yet to hear of any black person moaning that they can't get a job in football coaching/management - and until I do, I'll continue to believe that Jason Roberts is just inventing a problem that isn't actually there. Thanks then.

Who are you thanking?

Anyway, you can only hear a black person if you bother listening. i.e. look it up - took me a few seconds to find two examples.

Case Study 1 - Luther Blissett
Luther Blissett was one of the first black footballers to play in Italy, but his hopes of a ground-breaking impact in management were not realised. As a player, he gained experience abroad, played in every division of the Football League, became an England international and has since completed his coaching qualifications. To date, his only coaching jobs in the Football Leagues were spells at York City and Watford.

"I got my qualifications, started applying for jobs and didn't get interviews. I started applying at 30 and I'm now in my early 50s. People say persevere, but how long can you persevere? I started doing coaching at 17 and always knew that I wanted to stay in the game and contribute something. But eventually, you think, 'Shall I do this forever?' Attitudes have changed in many areas, but in terms of the boardroom and the organisation, there is often not the trust and belief that they can do that job. There's a perception that they can't do things. Some chairmen possibly don't want a black person to be the face of their club. They run the club and make their decisions.

"Statistics say it's getting more difficult. There are fewer English managers in the Premier League, they're taking more jobs in the Championship and it all has a knock-on effect.There needs to be more transparency. You apply for a job in football and you don't know the criteria. It's down to the personal choice of the chairman. All you want to know is that you've had a proper shout. I got the odd letter saying I didn't have the experience. That's the biggest load of rubbish. How do you get the experience if no one gives you a job?"

Case Study 2 - Viv Anderson
Viv Anderson made history when he became the first black player to represent England in 1978. The enormous progress that black players have made over the past three decades, however, has not been replicated in the dug-out.

Anderson's first job in coaching was as player-manager with Barnsley in 1993-94 and he kept them in what is now the Championship. He then moved to Middlesbrough where he spent seven years as assistant to Bryan Robson. In that time, Middlesbrough achieved two promotions and reached two League Cup and one FA Cup finals. Since leaving Middlesbrough in 2001, he has not had another job offer and now runs his own company. "The statistics are scary," Anderson said. "I'm disappointed but not surprised and it's an issue which needs to be addressed. I would say my CV is pretty good, but I've just got on with doing my own thing.

"There's an unconscious racism. Black kids want role models. There were successful black players and the next thing is to have successful black managers. At the moment, they're not getting the opportunity. You get to a level and there are barriers in front of you. It used to be thought that black players were flair players - that you couldn't be in a position of responsibility. They said we couldn't play in the cold, but I used to wear short sleeves and my job was to defend - that was what Brian Clough told me to do. I think there is a preconception now that they can't perform in the boardroom."

So is there a stereotype of black players being good athletes, but perhaps not such good thinkers? "Exactly right," said Anderson.

EDIT: (a third)

Sol Campbell

"I want to start abroad," said the 39-year-old in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. "There are no opportunities for me here, not until attitudes change anyway. Everyone has to ask themselves why there are not more black managers in this country and why the likes of [former Sheffield United striker] Brian Deane have to go abroad [to Sarpsborg 08 in Norway] to get a chance. I've spoken to other black players who want to coach and they feel the same, that attitudes here are archaic. I hope and pray the environment changes."


----

Anyway, if more black people came out and said they were turned down, I expect the next 'line of defence' would be that it was nothing to do with colour, they just weren't good enough.

Just because they say these things doesn't categorically mean that they are right that they are not getting jobs because of their colour.
Ince and Powell are managing at Championship level-maybe they have more about them than Luther and Anderson.
Keith Alexander (RIP)had a good career in management and Chris Kiwomya had a chance but has failed at Notts County who previously employed Keith Curle.
Connor was given a chance at Wolves and failed but I think I saw him on the bench somewhere else the other day.
What about the hundreds of white English ex-players who fail to get jobs?
There are only 92 (?) clubs and how many ex-players are there qualified and applying for these jobs when they come up?

Whatever has happened to Alan Curbishley who had a much greater track record than Viv Anderson?
Could it just be that these blokes aren't good enough or now not young enough?
Does John Aldridge still apply for jobs?
Does Souness still apply?
Where is Megson these days?
Was Jimmy Quinn not too proud to step down to non-league?

I wonder sometimes if some of these ex-players (black or white) over-rate themselves.
Sol Campbell strikes me as a classic case of an unqualified coach who expects clubs to fall over themselves to employ him.
Good for Brian Deane going abroad to get a job as many have done before him and notably our current England manager.
Just because some of these ex-players have played at the highest level doesn't automatically make them good coaches or managers.
Greats like Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore and Nobby Stiles never made it even at low levels and such as Roy Keane, a distinguished leader ON the pitch, has yet to show that he can translate that to successful coaching.

I would like to hear a bit more from those that have succeeded rather than from those that have failed and maybe their stories would inspire potential black coaches instead of those giving up (like Campbell) before they have even started.

[Ian Royal]

Interesting article from Barnes, can't fault the intent even if I don't agree exactly with everything he says.

The problem I have with Roberts (on this subject), is he pushes his criticisms to highlight racism with little regard to the context and seems to deliberately ignore any attempts to actually open a serious dialogue on that context. And I do think that his pushing of things that are clearly not racist undermines him as a spokesman on the subject, because makes it look trivial or crying wolf. And that's damaging to the campaign against racism and the work of groups like 'kick it out' and 'show racism the red card'.

You need those campaigning in the public eye to make sure that they only push robust arguments and actively enter into the debate seriously. Otherwise it only helps people ignore it as not the problem they claim. I've no doubt that Roberts and his family have suffered horrible racist abuse. And the reactions of those idiots on twitter is only going to reinforce his view about racism and how he should speak out about everything that could be even vaguely construed as racism through one eye, rather than take a more constructive approach.

[melonhead]

Sorry, don't buy their reasoning in the slightest.

Sol Campbell saw himself as too good for Notts C after 1 game and I would bet my last £1 he hasn't applied for any jobs below that level. "There are no opportunities for me here". Absolute bullshit.

i dont really buy yours to be fair

[melonhead]

Interesting article from Barnes, can't fault the intent even if I don't agree exactly with everything he says.

The problem I have with Roberts (on this subject), is he pushes his criticisms to highlight racism with little regard to the context and seems to deliberately ignore any attempts to actually open a serious dialogue on that context. And I do think that his pushing of things that are clearly not racist undermines him as a spokesman on the subject, because makes it look trivial or crying wolf. And that's damaging to the campaign against racism and the work of groups like 'kick it out' and 'show racism the red card'.

You need those campaigning in the public eye to make sure that they only push robust arguments and actively enter into the debate seriously. Otherwise it only helps people ignore it as not the problem they claim. I've no doubt that Roberts and his family have suffered horrible racist abuse. And the reactions of those idiots on twitter is only going to reinforce his view about racism and how he should speak out about everything that could be even vaguely construed as racism through one eye, rather than take a more constructive approach.

should you try and negotiate the levels of racism down to compromise levels, or just say its never acceptable.
if anything i lean towards the latter

[Extended-Phenotype]

Anyway, if more black people came out and said they were turned down, I expect the next 'line of defence' would be that it was nothing to do with colour, they just weren't good enough.

Yeah.

[Ian Royal]

Interesting article from Barnes, can't fault the intent even if I don't agree exactly with everything he says.

The problem I have with Roberts (on this subject), is he pushes his criticisms to highlight racism with little regard to the context and seems to deliberately ignore any attempts to actually open a serious dialogue on that context. And I do think that his pushing of things that are clearly not racist undermines him as a spokesman on the subject, because makes it look trivial or crying wolf. And that's damaging to the campaign against racism and the work of groups like 'kick it out' and 'show racism the red card'.

You need those campaigning in the public eye to make sure that they only push robust arguments and actively enter into the debate seriously. Otherwise it only helps people ignore it as not the problem they claim. I've no doubt that Roberts and his family have suffered horrible racist abuse. And the reactions of those idiots on twitter is only going to reinforce his view about racism and how he should speak out about everything that could be even vaguely construed as racism through one eye, rather than take a more constructive approach.

should you try and negotiate the levels of racism down to compromise levels, or just say its never acceptable.
if anything i lean towards the latter

I agree, but you need to be fighting clear battles where possible. And it's difficult to imagine a world without any degree of racism. So fight the fight you can win. Also, that doesn't take into account labelling things that aren't racist, as racist.

[Ian Royal]

Anyway, if more black people came out and said they were turned down, I expect the next 'line of defence' would be that it was nothing to do with colour, they just weren't good enough.

Yeah.

What's this week's lottery numbers?

[Extended-Phenotype]

Shit, completely wasted that one off time travel trip to the future on a stupid forum discussion.

[Hoop Blah]

Well I've yet to hear of any black person moaning that they can't get a job in football coaching/management - and until I do, I'll continue to believe that Jason Roberts is just inventing a problem that isn't actually there. Thanks then.

Who are you thanking?

Anyway, you can only hear a black person if you bother listening. i.e. look it up - took me a few seconds to find two examples.

Case Study 1 - Luther Blissett
Luther Blissett was one of the first black footballers to play in Italy, but his hopes of a ground-breaking impact in management were not realised. As a player, he gained experience abroad, played in every division of the Football League, became an England international and has since completed his coaching qualifications. To date, his only coaching jobs in the Football Leagues were spells at York City and Watford.

"I got my qualifications, started applying for jobs and didn't get interviews. I started applying at 30 and I'm now in my early 50s. People say persevere, but how long can you persevere? I started doing coaching at 17 and always knew that I wanted to stay in the game and contribute something. But eventually, you think, 'Shall I do this forever?' Attitudes have changed in many areas, but in terms of the boardroom and the organisation, there is often not the trust and belief that they can do that job. There's a perception that they can't do things. Some chairmen possibly don't want a black person to be the face of their club. They run the club and make their decisions.

"Statistics say it's getting more difficult. There are fewer English managers in the Premier League, they're taking more jobs in the Championship and it all has a knock-on effect.There needs to be more transparency. You apply for a job in football and you don't know the criteria. It's down to the personal choice of the chairman. All you want to know is that you've had a proper shout. I got the odd letter saying I didn't have the experience. That's the biggest load of rubbish. How do you get the experience if no one gives you a job?"

Case Study 2 - Viv Anderson
Viv Anderson made history when he became the first black player to represent England in 1978. The enormous progress that black players have made over the past three decades, however, has not been replicated in the dug-out.

Anderson's first job in coaching was as player-manager with Barnsley in 1993-94 and he kept them in what is now the Championship. He then moved to Middlesbrough where he spent seven years as assistant to Bryan Robson. In that time, Middlesbrough achieved two promotions and reached two League Cup and one FA Cup finals. Since leaving Middlesbrough in 2001, he has not had another job offer and now runs his own company. "The statistics are scary," Anderson said. "I'm disappointed but not surprised and it's an issue which needs to be addressed. I would say my CV is pretty good, but I've just got on with doing my own thing.

"There's an unconscious racism. Black kids want role models. There were successful black players and the next thing is to have successful black managers. At the moment, they're not getting the opportunity. You get to a level and there are barriers in front of you. It used to be thought that black players were flair players - that you couldn't be in a position of responsibility. They said we couldn't play in the cold, but I used to wear short sleeves and my job was to defend - that was what Brian Clough told me to do. I think there is a preconception now that they can't perform in the boardroom."

So is there a stereotype of black players being good athletes, but perhaps not such good thinkers? "Exactly right," said Anderson.

EDIT: (a third)

Sol Campbell

"I want to start abroad," said the 39-year-old in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. "There are no opportunities for me here, not until attitudes change anyway. Everyone has to ask themselves why there are not more black managers in this country and why the likes of [former Sheffield United striker] Brian Deane have to go abroad [to Sarpsborg 08 in Norway] to get a chance. I've spoken to other black players who want to coach and they feel the same, that attitudes here are archaic. I hope and pray the environment changes."


----

Anyway, if more black people came out and said they were turned down, I expect the next 'line of defence' would be that it was nothing to do with colour, they just weren't good enough.

I couldn't think of worse examples for black ex-players not getting a chance to coach and manage.

According to Wiki, Blisset retired in '94, spent some time being the superstar for a non-league side then got a job coaching with Watford under former boss (jobs for old boys working for him there?). When Vialli took over who moved all the old boys out.

Now football is quite an insular world, if he'd impressed enough under Taylor and made enough of an impression he'd probably have got another similar job pretty quickly. He didn't and he ended up, shock horror as there are no jobs for black coaches, getting a job as a coach with York City.

Perhaps it's because he's black that his career didn't take off. Perhaps it's because, for all his experience and quality as a player he just wasn't a very good coach. Perhaps it's just because he apparently wandered off into motor sport and other business activities and never really tried hard enough?

As for Viv Anderson, he got the Barnsley manager job as he wrapped up his playing career, failed there and then quit after one season to become Bryan Robson's assistant. So not only did he fail but he walked out and left his chance to be a manager. After he and Robson ultimately got the boot from 'Boro he didn't get another job. Why? Was he just a failure and tainted by the end of their time at 'Boro or his short lived stab at management at Barnsley? I don't know but he did get chances in the game, so I don't see him as a poster child for the lack of opportunity for black coaches to make a go of it.

All the #AskJason rubbish was pretty cringeworthy though.

[Lacoste]

Looks like the PC brigade have won in here.

They would have been destroyed by the propaganda of WW2, luckily, some of us are man (or woman RL) enough to speak our minds and not what 2013 UK wants us to say.

[72 bus]

Is Jason Roberts just a little bit racist himself ?

[sandman]

Looks like the PC brigade have won in here.

They would have been destroyed by the propaganda of WW2, luckily, some of us are man (or woman RL) enough to speak our minds and not what 2013 UK wants us to say.

The problem with that is that you have a retarded mind.