Are The Youngsters Being Frozen Out?

[Ian Royal]

A lot of it just comes down to luck. The right opening in the side at the right time with the right players around to help someone take their chance....

...The stars have to align, and you have to be good enough. It's tough to break through.

Agreed, there are a lot of things that have to go in a players favour, but ultimately they have to be good enough to demand a chance and to take it when it arises.

Some of our lads out on loan are still pretty inexperienced and young so there's still time for them to make it here but history does suggest they need to be involved and achieving a bit more at those lower levels if they're going to make it here (caveat that lots of players develop at different times of course).

Yeah, some of the promising ones have been disappointing in that regard. I think it's worth bearing in mind that different positions and styles of play within those positions will find it harder to find the right place to go and get the right chances at too.

Ultimately, as long as we're averaging an Academy product breaking into the first team once a season, it's a huge success. Even if that isn't breaking in as an ever-present starter. And the odd year without is not reason to panic. The last 10 years we've been blessed with players stepping up and contributing, and many in very significant ways.

[NewCorkSeth]

So what do we expect from Fosu and Stacey? Both are playing regularly enough correct? Do we see them breaking into the team next season or will they need another loan?

I don't think loaning out Cooper is a good idea. I would rather have him here for cover.

Fosu has started less than half the games at Colchester and is, more often than not, on the bench, likewise Tanner at Plymouth, although this is is 3rd spell on loan there so they obviously see something about him.

Cooper needs games to build confidence and experience, he won't get that as cover unless Moore or McShane get injured. I'd rather see him get a decent number of games under his belt and use Blackett as CB cover.

Call me old fashioned but I truly believe that its more important for CBs to stay in the team rather than be loaned out. In that position its all about partnerships and understand as part of a defensive duo.

Attacking and creative players who are not making the side need that playing time to get used to match day experiences and test their limits on the pitch where there's real stakes. A CB can develop just as well by training with the players he will fill in for and play beside week in week out.

Look at the young CBs in the premier league right now.
Reece Oxford - Not out on loan
Rob Holding - Not out on loan
Kurt Zouma - Not out on loan
Mason Holgate - Not out on loan
Joe Gomez - Not out on loan
Cameron Carter-Vickers - Not out on loan
Alfie Mawson - Not out on loan

With the exception of Zouma all the above are 4th or 5th choice CBs who would have loads of suitors in the Premier league and Championship to have on loan. Why do they keep these young talents in and around the first team if it would be more beneficial to ship them out on loan to gain confidence?

Even Ilori at Liverpool who most assumed Klopp would try to sell last summer after he admitted he had no idea he was a liverpool player is not on loan this season. Klopp has been full of praise for his attitude and skill and has made it very clear hes not a fan of the loan system.

Jason Denayer was the only player I could find who matched the young and 4th choice criteria who is actually out on loan

[Lower West]

He might get his chance and not live up to expectations but Yann isn't currently producing the goods and isn't likely to improve with age whereas Dom just might, given the chance..................................please stop insulting our intelligence, Japp

Danny is the same. Serves a purpose at the current time. Longer term. Need some one who tracks back quicker.

[From Despair To Where?]

Cooper's issues are mainly about decision making under pressure and individual mistakes. It's something he can rectify with experience but he won't learn without getting competative games under his belt

[Nameless]

So what do we expect from Fosu and Stacey? Both are playing regularly enough correct? Do we see them breaking into the team next season or will they need another loan?

I don't think loaning out Cooper is a good idea. I would rather have him here for cover.

Fosu has started less than half the games at Colchester and is, more often than not, on the bench, likewise Tanner at Plymouth, although this is is 3rd spell on loan there so they obviously see something about him.

Cooper needs games to build confidence and experience, he won't get that as cover unless Moore or McShane get injured. I'd rather see him get a decent number of games under his belt and use Blackett as CB cover.

Call me old fashioned but I truly believe that its more important for CBs to stay in the team rather than be loaned out. In that position its all about partnerships and understand as part of a defensive duo.

Attacking and creative players who are not making the side need that playing time to get used to match day experiences and test their limits on the pitch where there's real stakes. A CB can develop just as well by training with the players he will fill in for and play beside week in week out.

Look at the young CBs in the premier league right now.
Reece Oxford - Not out on loan
Rob Holding - Not out on loan
Kurt Zouma - Not out on loan
Mason Holgate - Not out on loan
Joe Gomez - Not out on loan
Cameron Carter-Vickers - Not out on loan
Alfie Mawson - Not out on loan

With the exception of Zouma all the above are 4th or 5th choice CBs who would have loads of suitors in the Premier league and Championship to have on loan. Why do they keep these young talents in and around the first team if it would be more beneficial to ship them out on loan to gain confidence?

Even Ilori at Liverpool who most assumed Klopp would try to sell last summer after he admitted he had no idea he was a liverpool player is not on loan this season. Klopp has been full of praise for his attitude and skill and has made it very clear hes not a fan of the loan system.

Jason Denayer was the only player I could find who matched the young and 4th choice criteria who is actually out on loan

Not sure how you missed Michael Hector.....

[NewCorkSeth]

Fosu has started less than half the games at Colchester and is, more often than not, on the bench, likewise Tanner at Plymouth, although this is is 3rd spell on loan there so they obviously see something about him.

Cooper needs games to build confidence and experience, he won't get that as cover unless Moore or McShane get injured. I'd rather see him get a decent number of games under his belt and use Blackett as CB cover.

Call me old fashioned but I truly believe that its more important for CBs to stay in the team rather than be loaned out. In that position its all about partnerships and understand as part of a defensive duo.

Attacking and creative players who are not making the side need that playing time to get used to match day experiences and test their limits on the pitch where there's real stakes. A CB can develop just as well by training with the players he will fill in for and play beside week in week out.

Look at the young CBs in the premier league right now.
Reece Oxford - Not out on loan
Rob Holding - Not out on loan
Kurt Zouma - Not out on loan
Mason Holgate - Not out on loan
Joe Gomez - Not out on loan
Cameron Carter-Vickers - Not out on loan
Alfie Mawson - Not out on loan

With the exception of Zouma all the above are 4th or 5th choice CBs who would have loads of suitors in the Premier league and Championship to have on loan. Why do they keep these young talents in and around the first team if it would be more beneficial to ship them out on loan to gain confidence?

Even Ilori at Liverpool who most assumed Klopp would try to sell last summer after he admitted he had no idea he was a liverpool player is not on loan this season. Klopp has been full of praise for his attitude and skill and has made it very clear hes not a fan of the loan system.

Jason Denayer was the only player I could find who matched the young and 4th choice criteria who is actually out on loan

Not sure how you missed Michael Hector.....

Do I bite?

Yes I do.
Terry, Luiz, Cahill, Ivanovic, Zouma, Christensen, Ake, Kalas, Omeruo are all either ahead of him or at least on the same level as him.

Hes at least 6th choice.

[Nameless]

Is that the Ake currently on loan at Bournemouth ?

[NewCorkSeth]

Is that the Ake currently on loan at Bournemouth ?

Do I bite again?

Yes. It is. someone who you will notice was towards the bottom of the list suggesting he is not ahead of the 4 CBs still at the club in the pecking order..

[From Despair To Where?]

Cooper is behind Moore, McShane and JVdB. Blackett has also been mooted as CB cover. He could potentially be as far down as 5th choice CB. He's good in the air, and OK with the ball at his feet, the physical attributes are there but he needs competitive game time if he is to improve the mental side of the game. He's too good for a few run outs with the U23s.

Stam was a half decent CB himself so it is one position where I definitely trust his judgement.

[Nameless]

Is that the Ake currently on loan at Bournemouth ?

Do I bite again?

Yes. It is. someone who you will notice was towards the bottom of the list suggesting he is not ahead of the 4 CBs still at the club in the pecking order..

Sorry, you seem to be deciding random pecking orders to prove a fairly obscure point.
It seems odd to say centre backs benefit from sitting watching other centre backs play rather than going out on loan and getting match hardened.
Other clubs do seem to loan out centre backs, in fact a Premiership side tried to loan us one this summer.

[NewCorkSeth]

Is that the Ake currently on loan at Bournemouth ?

Do I bite again?

Yes. It is. someone who you will notice was towards the bottom of the list suggesting he is not ahead of the 4 CBs still at the club in the pecking order..

Sorry, you seem to be deciding random pecking orders to prove a fairly obscure point.
It seems odd to say centre backs benefit from sitting watching other centre backs play rather than going out on loan and getting match hardened.
Other clubs do seem to loan out centre backs, in fact a Premiership side tried to loan us one this summer.

I dont think its random at all. The CBs I mentioned are all in about the same position as Cooper is in our team and have not been loaned out. The argument stated before suggests CBs in his position would benefit from a loan move I tried to show that classically teams do not send 4th choice CBs out on loan and there must be a reason for this.

If, as you say, its odd for CBs to be kept in the club when theyre not guaranteed games then why are they? As I said before all the names I gave would have plenty of suitors in the lower leagues and some in the Premiership so why are the clubs not actively looking to ship them out on loan?

You brought up Hector and in an effort to show how he is not in and around the first team (like Cooper) I listed the other CBs on Chelseas book who are either ahead of him or at the same level as him, which there is many!

As to clubs loaning out CBs yes of course they do but they dont historically loan out their 4th choice CB do they? even if that player is young and hasnt been bloodied in the lower leagues to gain experience.

[SCIAG]

We've loaned out our fourth choice centre back before. Recent examples include Pearce (2008-09), Morrison (2011-12), and Hector (2013-14).

I don't think loan spells are as important as people make out, and neither are our current youngsters lacking in loan appearances. Tanner's got more loan experience than Robson-Kanu, Stacey's pretty much level with Obita, Dickie's ahead of where Hector was.

We've historically sent our best youngsters out on loan and left the others at the club, so it's no surprise that the players who went out on loan had better careers.

[Hoop Blah]

We've historically sent our best youngsters out on loan and left the others at the club, so it's no surprise that the players who went out on loan had better careers.

Wasn't the original point that our current crop of youngsters out on loan aren't pulling up trees and playing enough, at the levels they're playing out, and so their futures don't look likely to be living up to the hype and expectations the club and many fans have placed on them?

Previously our most successful youngsters have gone out on loan and played more than this crop. Or at least that's the perception. Players like James Henry, Robson-Kanu, Karcan, Pearce, Church, McCarthy and Hamer all made bigger impressions on the first team when on loan than the likes of Stacey, Fosu, Tanner and Kulh currenlty are.

We've also sent lots of our youngsters who haven't gone on to play here or at this kind of level. Players like Lawson D'ath, Mikkel Anderson, Scott Davies (who actually did well on most of his loans IIRC), Bignall, Jake Taylor, Adam Bygrave, Julian Kelly etc. Some of those did well on loan, some didn't.

I can't think of any of our successful youth products who went out on loan and didn't make a decent impact though. James Henry perhaps?

I guess the conclusion is that there's no magic bullet, there's no precise way of handling their progress or judging their potential for success.

[sandman]

We've historically sent our best youngsters out on loan and left the others at the club, so it's no surprise that the players who went out on loan had better careers.

Wasn't the original point that our current crop of youngsters out on loan aren't pulling up trees and playing enough, at the levels they're playing out, and so their futures don't look likely to be living up to the hype and expectations the club and many fans have placed on them?

Previously our most successful youngsters have gone out on loan and played more than this crop. Or at least that's the perception. Players like James Henry, Robson-Kanu, Karcan, Pearce, Church, McCarthy and Hamer all made bigger impressions on the first team when on loan than the likes of Stacey, Fosu, Tanner and Kulh currenlty are.

We've also sent lots of our youngsters who haven't gone on to play here or at this kind of level. Players like Lawson D'ath, Mikkel Anderson, Scott Davies (who actually did well on most of his loans IIRC), Bignall, Jake Taylor, Adam Bygrave, Julian Kelly etc. Some of those did well on loan, some didn't.

I can't think of any of our successful youth products who went out on loan and didn't make a decent impact though. James Henry perhaps?

I guess the conclusion is that there's no magic bullet, there's no precise way of handling their progress or judging their potential for success.

Yep, Henry was so poor on loan at Millwall that they signed him on a permanent.

[Nameless]

Seth I just think you are massively overanalysing your point !
You have no idea whether 'historically' clubs loan out players who may or may not be somewhere between 4th and 7th in a theoretical pecking order.
Your original point was that you think it is better for players to stay at their own club and not play games than go and play some games elsewhere. You've not justified that view, would be interesting in the logic.
Anyway, this sort of thing really doesn't lend itself to pseudo statistical analysis does it ? If Stam decides Cooper would learn from going and playing 20games in Div 1 then the fact that Chelsea's 6th place centre back isn't currently on loan is hardly going to change his mind...

[Hoop Blah]

Yep, Henry was so poor on loan at Millwall that they signed him on a permanent.

Hilarious.....

I was probably thinking more of his spells at Forest (played just one game before being sent back early) and Norwich (again came back early due to lack of games). He did pretty well at Bournemouth as well though to be fair, although they were relegated from League One that season.

[SCIAG]

We've also sent lots of our youngsters who haven't gone on to play here or at this kind of level. Players like Lawson D'ath, Mikkel Anderson, Scott Davies (who actually did well on most of his loans IIRC), Bignall, Jake Taylor, Adam Bygrave, Julian Kelly etc. Some of those did well on loan, some didn't.

I can't think of any of our successful youth products who went out on loan and didn't make a decent impact though. James Henry perhaps?

I guess the conclusion is that there's no magic bullet, there's no precise way of handling their progress or judging their potential for success.

Most of those were the best players their age. D'Ath for example was top scorer for our U18s from midfield. I was thinking of the likes of Bygrave and Hateley but they both actually had loans (and Hateley's gone on to have a pretty respectable career in Scotland). If we've always sent our best players out on loan then of course all our good graduates went on loan.

Henry's loan at Norwich was a bit crap (for reasons beyond his control, like Alex Fernandez) but Bournemouth and particularly Millwall rated him. Jordan Obita didn't pull up any trees with his loans.

[NewCorkSeth]

Seth I just think you are massively overanalysing your point ! Very Possibly. Perhaps I am incredibly poor at putting my POV across in written word.

You have no idea whether 'historically' clubs loan out players who may or may not be somewhere between 4th and 7th in a theoretical pecking order.
I never said between 4th and 7th. If it came across that way I apologise for not being clear. I am simply stating that young 4th choice CBs like Cooper are not usually sent out on loan and I believe that is due to a higher importance in that position being placed on developing partnerships and understanding by training with their prospective CB partner.

Your original point was that you think it is better for players to stay at their own club and not play games than go and play some games elsewhere. You've not justified that view, would be interesting in the logic.
I specifically stated I only believe this to be true for young CBs.

Anyway, this sort of thing really doesn't lend itself to pseudo statistical analysis does it ? If Stam decides Cooper would learn from going and playing 20games in Div 1 then the fact that Chelsea's 6th place centre back isn't currently on loan is hardly going to change his mind...
Absolutely that is true. But I never made that point. I only delved into theoretical chelsea pecking orders to show that Hector is not equatable to Cooper as he is certainly further down their pecking order than Cooper is ours. My point which I feel has not been addressed is that most clubs retain players that are in a similar situation Cooper is in at Reading. Whether correct or not I believe that to be due to Managers/Coaches believing their development is best served by staying and training with the first team. As I have said a few times now why are the likes of Oxford, Holgate, Gomez, Mawson and Carter-Vickers not out on loan? I dont think its coincidental that these players, who by any reasonable glance at their respective squads are 4th choice, are not out on loan

[Hoop Blah]

Most of those were the best players their age. D'Ath for example was top scorer for our U18s from midfield. I was thinking of the likes of Bygrave and Hateley but they both actually had loans (and Hateley's gone on to have a pretty respectable career in Scotland). If we've always sent our best players out on loan then of course all our good graduates went on loan.

Henry's loan at Norwich was a bit crap (for reasons beyond his control, like Alex Fernandez) but Bournemouth and particularly Millwall rated him. Jordan Obita didn't pull up any trees with his loans.

Ah, I get what you mean about the better players comment now then. Surely once they get taken on after U18 they're all considered better players and in with a chance of making it aren't they? Or perhaps more get kept on these days because of the U21s and all the extra money floating around?

I'd have said pretty much every youngster taking on as a pro in the last 10 years has had a loan spell or two haven't they? If they haven't it might've just been because nobody really rated them outside of the club and there was nothing to be gained in sending them to the likes of Didcot or Newbury as they were too low down the pyramid.

I'd forgotten Obita had even been on loan!

[Nameless]

I don't think you develop a centre back partnership in training, you do it in matches. Hard to see how you could give multiple possible permutations of players any meaningful time together. When Cooper is probably 5th choice and needs game time to iron out his weaknesses it's hard to see who benefits from him doing a couple of set piece walk throughs with McShane, then watching Joey do them with Blackett, then Moore doing them with Blackett etc etc
Stam clearly has concerns about Cooper in our system, I think those can only either be addressed or shown to be terminal by Cooper playing competitive football. He's not going to do that with us until those issues have been addressed.
I don't think any partial analysis of other clubs has any bearing on that, but I respect your right to look for comparisons. I just don't think they help with Cooper's particular situation.