CONFIMRED - John O’shea signs for Reading

[From Despair To Where?]

It's clear that Clement sees the squad as lacking leadership. If O'Shea runs through brick walls in training and sets an example of commitment and determimation for the rest of the squad to follow then to my mind, that's job done for him without setting foot on a pitch in anger. I can see him playing the drill seargant, particulalrly if the plan is for him to take up a coaching role next season, as the dynamic of his relationship with the squad is going to change.

[Hoop Blah]

It's premature to judge our transfer policy has changed to something more successful and posituve after just three free signings in May / June. One third of which is thoroughly underwhelming and a continuation of poor value for money, and failure to address first XI and squad bloat issues.

You should wait and see the whole summer business before declaring that our strategy has improved rather than jumping to a conclusion on blind hope and one or two apparently decent signings without having seen them play a single minute for us.

How much have we paid to get him to sign?

How much are we paying him, and how big a portion of the wage budget is that going to be?

What’s his role in the squad and how is Clement wanting to use him in the side?

What flexibility with other players leaving and joining does the signing allow us?

It strikes me that you can’t really asses the direction, strengths and weaknesses of the transfer policy unless you can answer all those questions.

Would I be confident if O’Shea has been brought in to play 40 games alongside McShane this season? No. But it’s an interesting signing as it prompts a lot of questions.

[Snowflake Royal]

It's premature to judge our transfer policy has changed to something more successful and posituve after just three free signings in May / June. One third of which is thoroughly underwhelming and a continuation of poor value for money, and failure to address first XI and squad bloat issues.

You should wait and see the whole summer business before declaring that our strategy has improved rather than jumping to a conclusion on blind hope and one or two apparently decent signings without having seen them play a single minute for us.

How much have we paid to get him to sign?

How much are we paying him, and how big a portion of the wage budget is that going to be?

What’s his role in the squad and how is Clement wanting to use him in the side?

What flexibility with other players leaving and joining does the signing allow us?

It strikes me that you can’t really asses the direction, strengths and weaknesses of the transfer policy unless you can answer all those questions.

Would I be confident if O’Shea has been brought in to play 40 games alongside McShane this season? No. But it’s an interesting signing as it prompts a lot of questions.

For me the answers aren't really good whatever.

If he's planned to be a regular starter I find that baffling and a concern. If he's planned to be back up and to add the right mentality, I feel any realistic amount it would take to attract an ex-big time PL player, who must have been earning a solid wedge at Sunderland, is a waste of resource. I also question his mentality having been a significant part of Sunderland's abject performance over the last four years. It hasn't really helped them has it.

Essentially, either we're paying him to play, which doesn't improve our first XI and blocks the likes of Ilori / McShane which makes their wages a waste imo, or we are paying him not to play, which doesn't improve our first XI, wastes money and blocks progress for the more fringe young defenders in terms of bench and the odd sub appearance.

I dont think we needed a centreback unless we're offloading Blackett or losing Moore, in which case I want someone much better or with a future. I think McShane will be far better without being instructed to be our play maker - that and the poor midfield were our defensive problems, and lack of options at full back, not CB.

[Hoop Blah]

Lots of ifs, buts, maybes and assumptions there though.

The point being that until the whole policy pans out we won’t really be able to have any informed opinion on it. It’s just too early.

Arguably, even when all the business is done we might not fully understand the thinking because we won’t know if they got their other intended targets or unloaded the deadwood Clement wanted to.

[Snowflake Royal]

Lots of ifs, buts, maybes and assumptions there though.

The point being that until the whole policy pans out we won’t really be able to have any informed opinion on it. It’s just too early.

Arguably, even when all the business is done we might not fully understand the thinking because we won’t know if they got their other intended targets or unloaded the deadwood Clement wanted to.

That was all about just the O'Shea signing specifically. If you want to talk about wider transfer policy, of course you can't judge it in isolation based on one signing. But what you can do is look at what has gone before, and see if new signings seem to fit in with that. I don't think Yiadom does, Meyler could be argued either way - but there is a clear indication that they are intended to directly improve our first XI and fit a plan. O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

Clearly the transfer window can only really be judged six to twenty four months after it closes, but the point is, for me and I stress this because I'm not saying everyone should agree, or that I'm some sort of special font of knowledge - but I'll defend and expand on my view when challenged, this is a warning flag that we aren't fixing the policy as well as we need.

Clearly a lot of people disagree with me (what's new) and I'm not going to convince them, and their arguments certainly haven't convinced me... so I guess we leave it there.

[Hoop Blah]

It seems pretty obvious to me, having watched far too many transfer windows, that the players we bring in will be a mix of players to strengthen the first XI, gambles for the future and squad players to add depth and competition to the squad.

You seem to be implying that we can only sign the first category in this window if our first two signings fit that profile.

Until the business is finished, you just can’t write off the whole policy or a specific player without jumping to all sorts of uniformed conclusions.

Granted that makes this place a bit redundant, but that’s probably not a bad thing!

[Hiram K Hackenbacker]

It seems pretty obvious to me, having watched far too many transfer windows, that the players we bring in will be a mix of players to strengthen the first XI, gambles for the future and squad players to add depth and competition to the squad.

You seem to be implying that we can only sign the first category in this window if our first two signings fit that profile.

Until the business is finished, you just can’t write off the whole policy or a specific player without jumping to all sorts of uniformed conclusions.

Granted that makes this place a bit redundant, but that’s probably not a bad thing!

I agree

[Denver Royal]

Ian, when you say our transfer policy hasn't changed, what time frame are you talking about?

Gourlay (no experience with a Champ model) has been here less than a year. Tevreden (no Champ experience) has only been here two years. Stam was here a year and a half (no prior Champ experience). Clement has only been here a few months. Ownership is relatively new, and keeps changing.

How do you think policy has stayed the same with different personnel? Are successive people all following, and are all tied to, some script? Despite all the turnover, who and where is the constant who is pulling the strings? As you see it, how is the status quo being driven, why, and by whom?

[Snowflake Royal]

Ian, when you say our transfer policy hasn't changed, what time frame are you talking about?

Gourlay (no experience with a Champ model) has been here less than a year. Tevreden (no Champ experience) has only been here two years. Stam was here a year and a half (no prior Champ experience). Clement has only been here a few months. Ownership is relatively new, and keeps changing.

How do you think policy has stayed the same with different personnel? Are successive people all following, and are all tied to, some script? Despite all the turnover, who and where is the constant who is pulling the strings? As you see it, how is the status quo being driven, why, and by whom?

To an increasing extent since we got promoted to the PL under Coppell, although that was really just a case of people flying with limited resources and very little experience of what you need for the top flight. But mainly since the point Anton took over, worsening under Tevreden and Gourlay. I think successive people have been involved who just aren't very good at managing a transfer strategy. I suspect, but have little proof, that owners and suits are leading to a far greater extent than previously, to the point where scouts and coaches / managers aren't really in proper control. That seems less the case this summer, as you can genuinely see an aim for Clement in what he's trying to do... at least in the first couple.

Seeing as I'm here and it's still a decent conversation... Hoop's point about signings being a mix of first team, for the future and to add depth... I'd just reiterate that I sincerely hope O'Shea isn't the former, can't be the middle and that in my opinion CB is somewhere we don't need a 37 year old to add depth. Depth is all well and good, but for way too long we've had a bloated squad full of mediocre fringe players, many of whom have to play regularly because we don't have enough actual quality.

[From Despair To Where?]

O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

[The Cube]

Thought I would search for some backup to the Sunderland fans at work who pretty much blame O'Shea for the last two seasons.

I found an article from a year ago in which two fans wrote with opposing viewpoints about giving O'Shea a one-year contract extension. The first fan was in favour, but only on the basis that it was for him to be moving into coaching and not playing too much in the first team. Given that O'Shea then played 41 games and they got relegated I reckon that fan has since changed his mind. And of course he is now one year older.

The other fan was against - his reasons included:

Introduced a drinking culture into the squad.
Has no pace at all.
Has a very slow reaction time.
Has never shown any leadership quality.
Could only think of a handful of occasions in the previous season where his defending had stopped opponents.

Given that people on here are quoting O'Shea's (fictional) charity work as evidence that he will be a good player for us, I say that the only good role he could fill would be with the club's PR department. In terms of playing, everyone will quickly see this signing as a total waste of club resources, and I'm quite happy to nail my colours to the mast now on that side of the argument.

[AthleticoSpizz]

FOAD, he sounds like the perfect fit

[Snowflake Royal]

O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

If you want someone to inspire the players, pay for sports psychologist and a motivational speaker. Bring in someone with these qualities you seek who will actually play, you don't hire a footballer just to be a good influence, you hire footballers to play and be a good influence. Want a coach, hire a coach. I don't think O'Shea was brought in to improve the first XI, I've already explained that, at the point I explained I think we've had an over abundance of not very good depth, and that I don't think we need more at CB.

[Victor Meldrew]

O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

Just out of interest where did Clement work with O'Shea before?
To me this signing smacks of a Ferdinand/Keown signing of yesteryear and we know how those two deals worked out.
Offering even a 1-year deal to a 37 year old as a player strikes me as crazy.

[Hoop Blah]

As others have said, there was lots of praise for the impact of Keown and Ferdinand long after they’d left and the part that played in our subsequent success. Whether that was just false platitudes we won’t ever really know.

If its a toss up between bringing in an experienced pro who can help create the right environment whilst offering reasonable cover and passing on valuable experience to our youngsters and a collection of additional staff/consultants whilst also having to bring in adequate cover, then I’d probably go for the former.

Until we see how the squad shapes up it’s impossible to really offer too much of an opinion. Jury is out for me.

In terms of cover/competition though, we’ve got Moore, McShane and Illori as senior centre backs, plus Blackett who seems to only be comfortable there as one of 3. If we’re going to play 3 then we’d need a 5th. If we’re playing a back 4 then I’d say an extra senior centre half works alright.

[From Despair To Where?]

O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

Just out of interest where did Clement work with O'Shea before?
To me this signing smacks of a Ferdinand/Keown signing of yesteryear and we know how those two deals worked out.
Offering even a 1-year deal to a 37 year old as a player strikes me as crazy.

Republic of Ireland U21s.

[From Despair To Where?]

O'Shea doesn't seem, to me, to fit with those two or any decent version of improving our first XI. And that is what makes him seem like a continuation of previous policy of signing people on reputation because their available, without a coherent strategy for how it improves our actual team on the field.

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

If you want someone to inspire the players, pay for sports psychologist and a motivational speaker. Bring in someone with these qualities you seek who will actually play, you don't hire a footballer just to be a good influence, you hire footballers to play and be a good influence. Want a coach, hire a coach. I don't think O'Shea was brought in to improve the first XI, I've already explained that, at the point I explained I think we've had an over abundance of not very good depth, and that I don't think we need more at CB.

I'm not saying it's going to work but I'm not going to dismiss the signing as a waste of time when the person who has made the decision to bring him in knows more about the player and more about coaching, what he wants to achieve and how the player in question fits into that than I or anyone else on this forum can ever know and until I see any actual evidence that it's not working, I'm going to keep an open mind.

You make a lot of assumptions and very few, if any are based in fact.

[Snowflake Royal]

But you are assuming that O'Shea was bought in to improve out 1st XI. Considering the aim appears to be for him to take up a coaching role in 12 months time, challenging for a starting place in the 1st XI would not seem to be a priority.

Not every signing is made with the primary function of immediately improving the First XI. However, it does seems to be part of a strategy of Clement's to bring in people with strong leadership qualities because potentially they have something to offer that we currently lack. And don't forget, Clement has worked with O'Shea before.

However, you subsequent posts would indicate you have no understanding that there are other things beside what they can do on the pitch that a person can bring to the club. It's about having the right personalities in the club. Couldn't gives toss how good a player O'Shea is if he knows how to inspire and drive other players on. OK, he struggled to do that at Sunderland but Sundarland was an absolute basket case of a club, rotten from the former owner down but at least give the bloke a chance to find his place in the club before damning him.

If you want someone to inspire the players, pay for sports psychologist and a motivational speaker. Bring in someone with these qualities you seek who will actually play, you don't hire a footballer just to be a good influence, you hire footballers to play and be a good influence. Want a coach, hire a coach. I don't think O'Shea was brought in to improve the first XI, I've already explained that, at the point I explained I think we've had an over abundance of not very good depth, and that I don't think we need more at CB.

I'm not saying it's going to work but I'm not going to dismiss the signing as a waste of time when the person who has made the decision to bring him in knows more about the player and more about coaching, what he wants to achieve and how the player in question fits into that than I or anyone else on this forum can ever know and until I see any actual evidence that it's not working, I'm going to keep an open mind.

You make a lot of assumptions and very few, if any are based in fact.

Normally I'd agree, that tends to be my default position. O'Shea just hits all the wrong notes for me based on what we do know. And we all judge the potential success and quality of a signing based on what we know.

[From Despair To Where?]

Clement has identified a lack of leadership within the squad. That may have been down to Stam's management style and the coaching structure.

Ive said all along I don't think we have bad players, just badly coached players and that the squad generally just needs tweaking rather than root and branch surgery. I don't actually think our CB options are that bad, yes there's even a half decent footballer somewhere inside Tyler Blackett, the problems are primarily down to concentration and decision making which is something that a player of O'Shea's experience can help with so until proven otherwise, I am going to trust Clement's judgement.

[Stranded]

It should be noted that a signing can improve the 1st XI without actually appearing in it at all (or seldomly).