Back from the game-saints

273 posts
User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 27 Oct 2011 11:10

melonhead not just on here though is it- he can here it when a section of y25 groans when his names announced, or when he misplaces a pass/miscontrols the ball. bound to get to him

and although, you may say -ahhh delicate little flower, get over it, man up etc, he is young, and could probably do without it.

everyonecan see areas where he can improve, but we should probably try and focus on the positives, for his, and ourt own sakes


Focus on the positives by all means, but if you don't address the weaknesses (or even allow them to be discussed for fear of slagging off) then you're just being unrealistic and in danger of filling your head up with sand.

As for abuse in the ground. Dealing with the pressure and expectation of a crowd is a huge part of being a professional sportsman. I've not really heard the crowd getting on his back but if he's constantly cocking it up then he does need to live with the fact that people will show their frustration because we have a certain level of performance that we need to see.

I like him. I like what he can add to the team. That won't stop me groaning if he lets the ball run under his foot again or mutter a few expletives to those next to me when he again curls a simple pass the wrong side of the touchline.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 27 Oct 2011 11:14

melonhead as has been demonstrated the "mistakes" hes made that have cost us goals were mostly not his mistakes at all, so......


I don't think I said they did brendy, although being too weak when defending the far post against Derby certainly did cost us a goal.

The mistakes he makes, or the ones on the ball that I find so frustrating and needless, won't often directly result in us conceeding a chance or a goal, but they will mean we lose valuable possession and halt attacks and momentum. Over a game they build up and can change the course of the game enough to lose up points.

It's near impossible to quantify but above all it ruins my enjoyment of watching the team when the game needlessly stops because a professional can't make a 20 yard pass. That's not just Mills, but he's the worst at it in the current starting 11.

User avatar
melonhead
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14230
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 15:36
Location: on a thorn

Re: Back from the game-saints

by melonhead » 27 Oct 2011 11:17

Hoop Blah
melonhead not just on here though is it- he can here it when a section of y25 groans when his names announced, or when he misplaces a pass/miscontrols the ball. bound to get to him

and although, you may say -ahhh delicate little flower, get over it, man up etc, he is young, and could probably do without it.

everyonecan see areas where he can improve, but we should probably try and focus on the positives, for his, and ourt own sakes


Focus on the positives by all means, but if you don't address the weaknesses (or even allow them to be discussed for fear of slagging off) then you're just being unrealistic and in danger of filling your head up with sand.

As for abuse in the ground. Dealing with the pressure and expectation of a crowd is a huge part of being a professional sportsman. I've not really heard the crowd getting on his back but if he's constantly cocking it up then he does need to live with the fact that people will show their frustration because we have a certain level of performance that we need to see.

I like him. I like what he can add to the team. That won't stop me groaning if he lets the ball run under his foot again or mutter a few expletives to those next to me when he again curls a simple pass the wrong side of the touchline.


not sure its down to y25 to mould this player, nor us.

ill leave that to the coaching staff, who have demonstrated time and again, that they know much much better than all the boo boys in the world.

i already said quite clearly, everyone backing the boy up on here has acknowledged his weak areas already, nothing unrealistic about it.

and i repeat - the 3 goals he has been recently blamed for, 2 were nowt to do with him, and the one he maybe was, he was in exactly the right place, as close to the man as he could be, but was fouled, and the oppo player just got a toe on the ball as a result. so, wtf are you all on about........


his passing is ok, his crossing is ok. yes hell mess up both on occasion, but for a young player id say his completion percentage is probably good. almost as good as a mcanuff, kebe, kanu etc.i reckon.
th ereason he is highlighted is cos he is the one player who is always willing, and always showing for the ball, so gets it a hell of a lot more than many of the other players

its just yet again, "we" have to pick a scapegoat, and decide to groan and moan everytime he isnt spot on perfect.
& just like the majority of the other scapegoats before him, i hope he rams it down your throats.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 27 Oct 2011 11:38

It's not picking a scapegoat at all, it's commenting on the strength and weaknesses of the team. If you can't accept that we're not perfect and so people will comment on errors and areas that can be improved upon then you need to wake up to the real world brendy.

As for his completion rates, he makes more basic errors than the others (bar perhaps Kebe and Karacan) and so it's more frustrating. A fullback, when on the ball, should have the whole game infront of them and more time and space to spot and make a pass. When he gets it wrong he gets it really wrong.

As for Y25 moulding him, I never said they should. Neither should they have to bite their tongue when a player makes a rank bad mistake just to spare him his feelings. The player and the staff need to, and I'm sure are, work on his weaknesses. If, in the meantime, he isn't good enough to maintain the required performance levels then McDermott needs to address that too.

User avatar
Vision
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5073
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 20:53

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Vision » 27 Oct 2011 12:30

Hoop Blah It's not picking a scapegoat at all, it's commenting on the strength and weaknesses of the team. If you can't accept that we're not perfect and so people will comment on errors and areas that can be improved upon then you need to wake up to the real world brendy.

As for his completion rates, he makes more basic errors than the others (bar perhaps Kebe and Karacan) and so it's more frustrating. A fullback, when on the ball, should have the whole game infront of them and more time and space to spot and make a pass. When he gets it wrong he gets it really wrong.

As for Y25 moulding him, I never said they should. Neither should they have to bite their tongue when a player makes a rank bad mistake just to spare him his feelings. The player and the staff need to, and I'm sure are, work on his weaknesses. If, in the meantime, he isn't good enough to maintain the required performance levels then McDermott needs to address that too.


I wonder if part of the problem passing wise as well as defensive positioning that he's not really played that much as a left back. He comes from Southampton who play a tight passing game and spent a lot of time under O'Driscoll as Doncaster who also played that way. To me he, more than anyone is trying to play the ball more accurately into feet so as such his margin for error changes.

Here, although I think we've mixed it up a lot better recently, we tend to play down the channels a lot more and he's not quite getting this right either. I think it's still a case of getting used to our way of playing and gaining experience of playing as a left back at this level as well.

There's plenty to work with there but equally he's got plenty of work to do to get to a good championship standard full-back. I just dont think he's anywhere near as bad as some appear to be making out.


User avatar
Platypuss
Hob Nob Moderator
Posts: 8203
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 21:46
Location: No one cares about your creative hub, so get your fukcin' hedge cut

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Platypuss » 27 Oct 2011 12:44

paddy20 As a key defender Mills should not have been dragged out onto the wing. That area should have been covered by HRK under his instruction. Your best??? defenders should cover the greater danger areas.


HRK was already "marking" de Ridder. Given the positions, who else should have been marking Lambert from the throw-in if not Mills?

User avatar
melonhead
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14230
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 15:36
Location: on a thorn

Re: Back from the game-saints

by melonhead » 27 Oct 2011 12:57

Hoop Blah It's not picking a scapegoat at all, it's commenting on the strength and weaknesses of the team. If you can't accept that we're not perfect and so people will comment on errors and areas that can be improved upon then you need to wake up to the real world brendy.

As for his completion rates, he makes more basic errors than the others (bar perhaps Kebe and Karacan) and so it's more frustrating. A fullback, when on the ball, should have the whole game infront of them and more time and space to spot and make a pass. When he gets it wrong he gets it really wrong.

As for Y25 moulding him, I never said they should. Neither should they have to bite their tongue when a player makes a rank bad mistake just to spare him his feelings. The player and the staff need to, and I'm sure are, work on his weaknesses. If, in the meantime, he isn't good enough to maintain the required performance levels then McDermott needs to address that too.



you may not be scapegoating, but plenty of others are.

you may think its ok to moan during the game if they want to.
i cannot see how that is ever going to help a player whose confidence has already been highlighted as slightly low.

User avatar
Extended-Phenotype
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5887
Joined: 27 May 2011 10:43
Location: Oxford Road

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Extended-Phenotype » 27 Oct 2011 13:44

Yeah. Let's all give a standing ovation the next time someone passes the ball to the advertising hoarding.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 27 Oct 2011 14:12

Vision
Hoop Blah It's not picking a scapegoat at all, it's commenting on the strength and weaknesses of the team. If you can't accept that we're not perfect and so people will comment on errors and areas that can be improved upon then you need to wake up to the real world brendy.

As for his completion rates, he makes more basic errors than the others (bar perhaps Kebe and Karacan) and so it's more frustrating. A fullback, when on the ball, should have the whole game infront of them and more time and space to spot and make a pass. When he gets it wrong he gets it really wrong.

As for Y25 moulding him, I never said they should. Neither should they have to bite their tongue when a player makes a rank bad mistake just to spare him his feelings. The player and the staff need to, and I'm sure are, work on his weaknesses. If, in the meantime, he isn't good enough to maintain the required performance levels then McDermott needs to address that too.


I wonder if part of the problem passing wise as well as defensive positioning that he's not really played that much as a left back. He comes from Southampton who play a tight passing game and spent a lot of time under O'Driscoll as Doncaster who also played that way. To me he, more than anyone is trying to play the ball more accurately into feet so as such his margin for error changes.

Here, although I think we've mixed it up a lot better recently, we tend to play down the channels a lot more and he's not quite getting this right either. I think it's still a case of getting used to our way of playing and gaining experience of playing as a left back at this level as well.

There's plenty to work with there but equally he's got plenty of work to do to get to a good championship standard full-back. I just dont think he's anywhere near as bad as some appear to be making out.


Yeah I'd go along with most of that, apart, perhaps, from the bit about people making him out to be that bad. I think the majority are pointing out where he's performaing poorly, not just saying he's shit full stop.

We're currently 'stuck' with two leftbacks (and another on loan), neither of which seem to be quite up to the job at the moment.


Woodcote Royal
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 3490
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:24
Location: Relocation to Surrey completed

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Woodcote Royal » 27 Oct 2011 15:01

Vision
Hoop Blah It's not picking a scapegoat at all, it's commenting on the strength and weaknesses of the team. If you can't accept that we're not perfect and so people will comment on errors and areas that can be improved upon then you need to wake up to the real world brendy.

As for his completion rates, he makes more basic errors than the others (bar perhaps Kebe and Karacan) and so it's more frustrating. A fullback, when on the ball, should have the whole game infront of them and more time and space to spot and make a pass. When he gets it wrong he gets it really wrong.

As for Y25 moulding him, I never said they should. Neither should they have to bite their tongue when a player makes a rank bad mistake just to spare him his feelings. The player and the staff need to, and I'm sure are, work on his weaknesses. If, in the meantime, he isn't good enough to maintain the required performance levels then McDermott needs to address that too.


I wonder if part of the problem passing wise as well as defensive positioning that he's not really played that much as a left back. He comes from Southampton who play a tight passing game and spent a lot of time under O'Driscoll as Doncaster who also played that way. To me he, more than anyone is trying to play the ball more accurately into feet so as such his margin for error changes.

Here, although I think we've mixed it up a lot better recently, we tend to play down the channels a lot more and he's not quite getting this right either. I think it's still a case of getting used to our way of playing and gaining experience of playing as a left back at this level as well.

There's plenty to work with there but equally he's got plenty of work to do to get to a good championship standard full-back. I just dont think he's anywhere near as bad as some appear to be making out.



Have to agree with a lot of your observations whilst being gobsmacked that some describe Mills defending as "horrifying"

I would apply that description to the afternoon I spent at Wembley watching Swansea lob the ball over Harte's head and wondering whether he and their right winger would be in the same post code when the ball reached our penalty area :|

As far as I can see, despite much nonsense from the usual sources Mills has been culpable for one goal when he was muscled off the ball whilst other more experienced defenders should be envious of that record

As for his passing, what makes him any worse than Pearce? As for his corners, what makes him any worse than the vast majority we've entrusted with this task over the last decade?

For years we used to say "We never score from corners" largely because the delivery could often be described as "horrifying" and that from professionals with far more experience than Mills who had had all week to practice :|

Like Shorey before him, dead ball specialist Harte was often guilty of "horrifying" contributions in this respect but never got the same stick as Mills.

Without doubt Shorey had a sweet left foot but he was often guilty of aimless punts down field yet was always beyond criticism from the adoring East Stand.

IMHO, we have the makings of a very good young side interspersed with just the right amount of experience in Gorkks, Leigertwood and McAnuff.

Fans who think Mills is not ready to be brought into this team merely confirm my belief that, as a club, many of our supporters have forgotten what it takes to develop our own first team players. It took some a matter of weeks to go from slagging off Long as "not good enough" to bricking it for fear he would be sold!

As Ian says, we now have a team we can look to develop over several seasons and my main doubts at his stage would be over Church and Pearce rather than our 2 young full backs who have transformed the way we play whilst being part of an improving defence.

I thank Ian Harte for his goals last season and wish him genuine best wishes for the future but it's time to move on and I was very impressed with what I saw against Derby and Southampton from a team still very much in it's infancy.

User avatar
Royal Rother
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 21420
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:22
Location: The handsome bald fella with the blue eyes

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Royal Rother » 27 Oct 2011 15:04

It took some a matter of weeks to go from slagging off Long as "not good enough" to bricking it for fear he would be sold!


Nice observation.

User avatar
melonhead
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14230
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 15:36
Location: on a thorn

Re: Back from the game-saints

by melonhead » 27 Oct 2011 15:14

Extended-Phenotype Yeah. Let's all give a standing ovation the next time someone passes the ball to the advertising hoarding.



is that anyway near what i was saying? :roll:
i just said i hated it, & asked the question how audibly moaning helps the player improve*?

*unless its his lovemaking technique
Last edited by melonhead on 27 Oct 2011 16:21, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ian Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 35156
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 13:43
Location: Playing spot the pc*nt on HNA?

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Ian Royal » 27 Oct 2011 15:30

melonhead
Extended-Phenotype Yeah. Let's all give a standing ovation the next time someone passes the ball to the advertising hoarding.



is that anyway near what i was saying? :roll:
i just said i hated it, & asked the question how audibly moaning helps the player improve?


general indication of the descent of our society towards anarchy as everyone is always instantly looking for a figure of blame and has no patience or sense of perspective.


If you still hate Futcher
Member
Posts: 623
Joined: 20 Apr 2004 16:46
Location: Location: Location:

Re: Back from the game-saints

by If you still hate Futcher » 27 Oct 2011 23:42

paddy20 As a key defender Gorkss should not have been dragged out to the ball. He should have held position and left Pearce to do his job, therefore allowing him to pick up the loose ball and clear the danger.


Corrected for you

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 28 Oct 2011 10:17

Ian Royal general indication of the descent of our society towards anarchy as everyone is always instantly looking for a figure of blame and has no patience or sense of perspective.


Or that any honest appraisal, constructive criticism/comment or realism is seen as harsh bullying and picking on individuals because we're breeding generations of weak minded and over sensitive lefties who can't accept a few home truths.

I don't see any scapegoating going on, just comment about a perceived weakness. It's not singling him out but suggesting where we have room for improvement on an individial or team basis. Why is that always seen as such a bad thing.

User avatar
melonhead
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14230
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 15:36
Location: on a thorn

Re: Back from the game-saints

by melonhead » 28 Oct 2011 10:22

then you are blind. he has been comprehensively slagged by many, blamed for goals that were nothing to do with him, and highlighted whenever he does anything that many of our other players do on a game by game basis without much comment.
if that aint scapegoating, i dunno what is.

but lol at trying to make this into some sort of oooo lets protect the sensitive little flower issue.
i simply asked (alongside all the other points about scapegoating)the question that if he is nervous about making it here etc, how hearing moans every time he messes up going to help his game in anyway.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 28 Oct 2011 10:31

Woodcote Royal As for his passing, what makes him any worse than Pearce? As for his corners, what makes him any worse than the vast majority we've entrusted with this task over the last decade?


This is a fair point, and I've no idea where some people get the idea that we're that bad from corners. Mills delivery is ok, in fact a lot of the time I think it's been better than others. However, it's really difficult to know what is a good or bad corner unless you've been involved in the training and know what type of corner we're trying to hit.

We had a spell last season where we hit the first defender far too much. That's obvioulsy not planned but I would guess that it's because we were trying to hit a specific near post corner that required a higher degree of accuracy and a lower success rate.

Mills seems to over hit his corners a fair bit but without knowing what the plan was it's hard to know if he's missed it by far or that players haven't got where they should.

Woodcote Royal Without doubt Shorey had a sweet left foot but he was often guilty of aimless punts down field yet was always beyond criticism from the adoring East Stand.


Shorey's passing was still excellent though. He vary rarely made a mistake with the ball whereas Mills often does. I think it's really harsh to compare Mills to Shorey though as Shorey was one of the best in the country at what he did.

Those 'aimless punts' as you call them, weren't usually anything of the sort. They would've been the planned out ball to relieve pressure and get the ball down the channels. We played a lot of percentage football under Coppell and that ball down the line was very much part of our success. Played with the right weight, as it usually was by Shorey and Murty, it was a very effective pass. Mills does try something similar but he's much more likely to overhit it or, as often happens, just knock it out of play.

Woodcote Royal IMHO, we have the makings of a very good young side interspersed with just the right amount of experience in Gorkks, Leigertwood and McAnuff.

Fans who think Mills is not ready to be brought into this team merely confirm my belief that, as a club, many of our supporters have forgotten what it takes to develop our own first team players.


Agree with these point though WR. The balance of the side is getting there now we've added Gorks and it does take time for youngsters to grown into first team players and to fulfil their potential.

I'm not sure I'd suggest dropping Mills at the current time but there does come a point where you have to accept a young player, or any player, isn't quite ready yet and you take them out of the side for a while. It happened with Harte last season when his performances dropped. It happened with Pearce and Karacan and has happened with others. Mills shouldn't be immune that either, although Harte's early season form probably means McDermott will give him a lot more slack than other players with more genuine competition for their place.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Hoop Blah » 28 Oct 2011 10:39

melonhead ...blamed for goals that were nothing to do with him, and highlighted whenever he does anything that many of our other players do on a game by game basis without much comment.
if that aint scapegoating, i dunno what is.


Other players have also been blamed for goals that have been nothing to do with them as well though. HNA posters in getting it wrong shocker?

I think the only person to blame Mills for the far post header was Finerain because he didn't get the fact that Mills job from the freekick was to mark someone else.

I still don't think it's scapegoating because other players have been criticised as well. It's not like he's the only one being blamed over the last 3 or 4 games. If it was then I'd agree.

Pearce has been pulled up for being slow and out of position, so has Gorks. Legiertwood has been criticised for poor performances before the last game or two, McAnuff slatted for some ineffective games and leadership, Church for being powderpuff and lacking any ruthlessness infront of goal, Kebe for looking less and less interested as time goes by, Robson-Kanu for not getting involved, Karacan for giving the ball away etc etc.

I think the only player who's not had criticism recently has been Le Fondre, and that's because he's played well.

Mills has been the point of discussion on this thread because he's had a poor run of form in some aspects of his game. Some have defended him, rightly in some aspects (eg his lasck of culpability for the Derby goal), but also needlessly at times which has lengthened the debate and then brought about the 'scapegoating' claims.

Play badly, make mistakes = negative comments.

User avatar
bcubed
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11586
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 18:16
Location: Would do better with a stick of rhubarb

Re: Back from the game-saints

by bcubed » 28 Oct 2011 13:27

Hoop Blah
Woodcote Royal As for his passing, what makes him any worse than Pearce? As for his corners, what makes him any worse than the vast majority we've entrusted with this task over the last decade?


This is a fair point, and I've no idea where some people get the idea that we're that bad from corners. Mills delivery is ok, in fact a lot of the time I think it's been better than others. However, it's really difficult to know what is a good or bad corner unless you've been involved in the training and know what type of corner we're trying to hit.



I agree that his corners are not that bad and many are pretty good (ceratinly on a par with Jobi)

People expecting goals every time should remember the stats (appearing on HNA previously, perhaps Snowball, but can't be sure) that only around 3% of corners result in goals :shock:

User avatar
Extended-Phenotype
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5887
Joined: 27 May 2011 10:43
Location: Oxford Road

Re: Back from the game-saints

by Extended-Phenotype » 28 Oct 2011 13:57

Ian Royal
melonhead
Extended-Phenotype Yeah. Let's all give a standing ovation the next time someone passes the ball to the advertising hoarding.



is that anyway near what i was saying? :roll:
i just said i hated it, & asked the question how audibly moaning helps the player improve?


general indication of the descent of our society towards anarchy as everyone is always instantly looking for a figure of blame and has no patience or sense of perspective.



Or maybe a glaringly obvious indication that if people get sh/te for their money, they complain.

Get paid a professional wage, do a professional job. While your busy conducting an unjustifiably stupid violin concerto for millionaires who can’t kick a ball in an intentional direction, plumbers are being shouted at for flooding houses, train drivers are being sworn at for being late and canteen staff are getting earache because I expect at least some chicken in a f/ chicken salad sandwich.

How much a week? Right, pass the f/ ball correctly. Pretty f/ please.

273 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: RoyalBlue, windermereROYAL and 464 guests

It is currently 02 Jul 2024 16:22