#AskJason

[Extended-Phenotype]

Dunno. I've seen a flinch when I've called a black dude a cheeky monkey.

Again, not commenting on whether bloke was being over-sensitive, just pointing out that it can jar.

Arguably, my Gramps isn't meaning offence when he "abbreviates" Pakistani but I'd advise him to refrain as the abbreviation does indeed stir alarm whether he intended it or not.

When the Aussies talk about playing the Pakistan cricket team, they always use the 'abbreviation'. I don't think they mean any offence.

Probably don't.

But if the word has been demonstrated to have abusive connotations then it's understandable if certain people aren't comfortable hearing that word.

It's not like we don't moderate our language in non-race contexts (office speak, parent speak, gender speak =/= mate speak) so can't fathom why people get stubborn about being sensitive regarding race contexts, other than they just don't want to adjust for people they obviously don't respect.

[Ian Royal]

[
I agree, but you need to be fighting clear battles where possible. And it's difficult to imagine a world without any degree of racism. So fight the fight you can win. Also, that doesn't take into account labelling things that aren't racist, as racist.

its easy if you try.


hes just asking the questions. and theyre valid. and it seems we really need to get to the bottom of the questions he asks, so its good he asks them.
will the answer be- they dont get the jobs cos the people in charge are racist, maybe not. but the disconnect between coaches taking badges and getting jobs does need looking at. imo.


agree totally that he did more damage than good with his comments on monkeyg8 though

It's easy if you try to imagine everyone as reasonable people like us, less so if you incorporate any degree of reality.

He's asking a lot of the right questions, then undermining them by ignoring the debate about them rather than promoting that debate further. And he's also making very stupid and inaccurate claims of racism further undermining the right questions he does sometimes ask.

But then I think we've agreed on that.

I just think that if you're going to fight the fight. You can't give the opposition any ammo to throw back at you. And that's exactly what he's done with monkeygate. And the Black Lawyers Association do similar. It just opens up the racists to be able to claim they're just playing the race card to gain advantage and ignore the arguments.

[Ian Royal]

On a slightly separate note, I thought John Barnes made an interesting point that some East Africans are better suited physically to long distance running, but we all share the same mental potential.

Perhaps, the genetics of some black people gives them an athletic advantage in playing football, but doesn't give them an advantage in coaching or management. Perhaps the argument that there are 30% black players (an over-representation based on societal make-up) so there should be 30% black managers is a flawed argument and actually it should be representative of society as a whole.

I'm not sure I'd buy that as I think you've got to say that playing gives you an advantage to go into managment. But I bet you wouldn't see Roberts engage on the question and instead just keep talking about under-representation and 30%.

[ns1981]

Dunno. I've seen a flinch when I've called a black dude a cheeky monkey.

Again, not commenting on whether bloke was being over-sensitive, just pointing out that it can jar.

Arguably, my Gramps isn't meaning offence when he "abbreviates" Pakistani but I'd advise him to refrain as the abbreviation does indeed stir alarm whether he intended it or not.

When the Aussies talk about playing the Pakistan cricket team, they always use the 'abbreviation'. I don't think they mean any offence.

I'd like to add something if I may... If its deemed incorrect to abbreviate Pakistani, which I accept it is in today's society, why is then OK for non British to use the word Brit/s...?! I myself am British/English and whilst I take no offence to the use of this, if I did would anything be done? Would a non British person be seen as racist for referring to me as a Brit?! I doubt it.

There are many abbreviations used without any racial intent. A few are: Yanks for Americans, Taffs for Welsh, Jocks for Scottish, Krauts for Germans... the list goes on. My point is simple- it can't be one rule for some and one for others, it has surely got to be all or none, no?!

Food for thought!

[Ian Royal]

Because there's no associated history of racism and repression to 'Brit'. contractions and nicknames are not inherantly pejorative. And even when they're not meant complimentarily, that still doesn't mean there is the associated repression attached.

Also, since when has "paki" been used just for pakistani nationals? It's used to describe anyone asian with vaguely the right sort of skin tone.

[ns1981]

Because there's no associated history of racism and repression to 'Brit'. contractions and nicknames are not inherantly pejorative. And even when they're not meant complimentarily, that still doesn't mean there is the associated repression attached.

Also, since when has "paki" been used just for pakistani nationals? It's used to describe anyone asian with vaguely the right sort of skin tone.

Ok so what if I now said it DID offend me?

[Victor Meldrew]

Ian,
Picking up on your point about the view that there are 30% black players so some feel that there ought to be 30% representation in coaching/management.
As coaching/management is mostly about watching rather than playing should we not look at what percentage of football crowds are black?
At most of the games I have been to in England watching Reading and others I would guess (with no actual figures to back this up) that less than 5% of black people make up a crowd-more probably at Arsenal for example but less at Newcastle.
Is this percentage nearer to the numbers in coaching or management at the professional level?
Are black people (yes, a big generalisation) more interested in playing rather than watching or coaching?

[southbank1871]

Dunno. I've seen a flinch when I've called a black dude a cheeky monkey.

Again, not commenting on whether bloke was being over-sensitive, just pointing out that it can jar.

Arguably, my Gramps isn't meaning offence when he "abbreviates" Pakistani but I'd advise him to refrain as the abbreviation does indeed stir alarm whether he intended it or not.

When the Aussies talk about playing the Pakistan cricket team, they always use the 'abbreviation'. I don't think they mean any offence.

I'd like to add something if I may... If its deemed incorrect to abbreviate Pakistani, which I accept it is in today's society, why is then OK for non British to use the word Brit/s...?! I myself am British/English and whilst I take no offence to the use of this, if I did would anything be done? Would a non British person be seen as racist for referring to me as a Brit?! I doubt it.

There are many abbreviations used without any racial intent. A few are: Yanks for Americans, Taffs for Welsh, Jocks for Scottish, Krauts for Germans... the list goes on. My point is simple- it can't be one rule for some and one for others, it has surely got to be all or none, no?!

Food for thought!

It really isn't that difficult. If there's a word that you know causes offence (due to historical disgusting use of said word), it's probably best not to use it. If there is no offence, then use the word. There's not many people that don't realise that words like p*ki and n*gger are offensive, so to continue to use them is at best weird and at worst reprehensible.

And VM, are you actually for real?

[The Royal We]

I'd like to borrow from a blog I read on the Roy Hodgson situation and contribute the following:

"Sometimes a monkey is actually a monkey. If you think every reference to a monkey means "black person" then perhaps you are racist.

In fact it's probably illuminating of changing values that a man can compare a black man to a monkey without even considering the racial implications of that. Roy Hodgson is possibly the least racist man in the country. He didn't even consider that monkey=black man, which is the world we want to live in surely. We want to live in a world where monkey doesn't equal black man in anybody's mind and thus the people who are trying to turn a case where monkey doesn't equal black man into one where it does are in fact the arseholes here.

There's enough genuinely unpleasant and offensive people out there to deal with, without having to start picking up on people who clearly don't mean any harm."

I've never taken issue with things Jason Roberts has said before or since. But in this instance I think he should have said nothing. No offence was intended and none was taken by Townsend. Say nothing and move on, rather than chase column inches in the Daily Mail.

[Ian Royal]

Because there's no associated history of racism and repression to 'Brit'. contractions and nicknames are not inherantly pejorative. And even when they're not meant complimentarily, that still doesn't mean there is the associated repression attached.

Also, since when has "paki" been used just for pakistani nationals? It's used to describe anyone asian with vaguely the right sort of skin tone.

Ok so what if I now said it DID offend me?

Assuming you weren't just being a dick to try and make a truely terrible and falacious point, then it would offend you. That doesn't give it all the associated decades / centuries of western oppression and prejudice behind it though and neither does it make it racist.

"Brit" simply isn't isn't a pejorative term with any serious level association with (receiving) prejudice, oppression or with suffering. "Paki" and "nigger" come with all of that rolled in already. If you want "brit" to fall into the same category, you need to find a race of people to oppress / enslave all northern Europeans, whilst referrign to them as "Brits" in a negative way for a minimum of a couple of decades. But if it's all the same to you, I'd rather you didn't.

[Ian Royal]

Ian,
Picking up on your point about the view that there are 30% black players so some feel that there ought to be 30% representation in coaching/management.
As coaching/management is mostly about watching rather than playing should we not look at what percentage of football crowds are black?
At most of the games I have been to in England watching Reading and others I would guess (with no actual figures to back this up) that less than 5% of black people make up a crowd-more probably at Arsenal for example but less at Newcastle.
Is this percentage nearer to the numbers in coaching or management at the professional level?
Are black people (yes, a big generalisation) more interested in playing rather than watching or coaching?

No, that wouldn't really work and that isn't what Management is about. Although it doesn't surprise me that you think it is.

The majority of professional managers are former players and virtually none come from a background of just fandom.

[Victor Meldrew]

Ian,
Picking up on your point about the view that there are 30% black players so some feel that there ought to be 30% representation in coaching/management.
As coaching/management is mostly about watching rather than playing should we not look at what percentage of football crowds are black?
At most of the games I have been to in England watching Reading and others I would guess (with no actual figures to back this up) that less than 5% of black people make up a crowd-more probably at Arsenal for example but less at Newcastle.
Is this percentage nearer to the numbers in coaching or management at the professional level?
Are black people (yes, a big generalisation) more interested in playing rather than watching or coaching?

No, that wouldn't really work and that isn't what Management is about. Although it doesn't surprise me that you think it is.

The majority of professional managers are former players and virtually none come from a background of just fandom.

That is of course right but my overall point and question is (in relation to football) are black players more interested in playing than coaching?
So many of the best players (whatever their colour) don't make good coaches because they are often naturally gifted and find it difficult to understand that less gifted players can't do what they can do.
Conversely the likes of Wenger, Mourinho,Ferguson,even Rodgers were not particularly good players but maybe because of that they had to think more deeply about the game.

In reply to Southbank ,on reflection the point about so few black people going to watch probably has f*** all to do with how many become coaches but perhaps you can answer my question-why do so few black people go and watch football when so many play the professional game?
Asians are fanatical followers of cricket.
West Indians or 2nd generation West Indians pack our test grounds when West indies are here to play or if Usain Bolt is at Crystal Palace.
Middle class whites flock to Twickenham to watch middle class whites play rugby.
Asians in England don't go to watch football presumably as there are no Asian players?
Track cycling is mainly watched by whites and competed in by whites as with swimming.
So, why do you think so few black people go to football when so many play the game?

[Victor Meldrew]

Ian,
Picking up on your point about the view that there are 30% black players so some feel that there ought to be 30% representation in coaching/management.
As coaching/management is mostly about watching rather than playing should we not look at what percentage of football crowds are black?
At most of the games I have been to in England watching Reading and others I would guess (with no actual figures to back this up) that less than 5% of black people make up a crowd-more probably at Arsenal for example but less at Newcastle.
Is this percentage nearer to the numbers in coaching or management at the professional level?
Are black people (yes, a big generalisation) more interested in playing rather than watching or coaching?

No, that wouldn't really work and that isn't what Management is about. Although it doesn't surprise me that you think it is.

The majority of professional managers are former players and virtually none come from a background of just fandom.

Ian,
A lot of football management IS about watching ,analysing the opposition,systems, prozone, man management etc. with less and less of the track-suit, join in the 5 aside approach.

[ns1981]

Because there's no associated history of racism and repression to 'Brit'. contractions and nicknames are not inherantly pejorative. And even when they're not meant complimentarily, that still doesn't mean there is the associated repression attached.

Also, since when has "paki" been used just for pakistani nationals? It's used to describe anyone asian with vaguely the right sort of skin tone.

Ok so what if I now said it DID offend me?

Assuming you weren't just being a dick to try and make a truely terrible and falacious point, then it would offend you. That doesn't give it all the associated decades / centuries of western oppression and prejudice behind it though and neither does it make it racist.

"Brit" simply isn't isn't a pejorative term with any serious level association with (receiving) prejudice, oppression or with suffering. "Paki" and "nigger" come with all of that rolled in already. If you want "brit" to fall into the same category, you need to find a race of people to oppress / enslave all northern Europeans, whilst referrign to them as "Brits" in a negative way for a minimum of a couple of decades. But if it's all the same to you, I'd rather you didn't.

Don't be so fcuking rude, I wasn't rude to you!

[Ian Royal]

I said "assuming you weren't just being a dick" and then went on to answer your question. That's not rude. Even though I'd already answered the question once and it was a stupid one in the first place.

[72 bus]

Dunno. I've seen a flinch when I've called a black dude a cheeky monkey.

Again, not commenting on whether bloke was being over-sensitive, just pointing out that it can jar.

Arguably, my Gramps isn't meaning offence when he "abbreviates" Pakistani but I'd advise him to refrain as the abbreviation does indeed stir alarm whether he intended it or not.

oxf*rd me mate, you lambaste everyone on the board who thinks Json R is a bit of a oxf*rd for seeing racists around every corner then...
cheerful admit to calling random black guys "cheekey monkeys"
HNA, you could not make it up

[Silver Fox]

I'd like to add something if I may... If its deemed incorrect to abbreviate Pakistani, which I accept it is in today's society, why is then OK for non British to use the word Brit/s...?!

We have a winner, lock the thread

[Big Foot]

I'd like to add something if I may... If its deemed incorrect to abbreviate Pakistani, which I accept it is in today's society, why is then OK for non British to use the word Brit/s...?!

We have a winner, lock the thread

Genius scenes

[genome]

I'd like to add something if I may... If its deemed incorrect to abbreviate Pakistani, which I accept it is in today's society, why is then OK for non British to use the word Brit/s...?!

[Maguire]

Why isn't there a white history month?