Next Reading Manager

[Stranded]

I know they will but the point that seems be continually missed, is so will we andcwe are doing that more effectively that anyone else in the bottom 4.

We have a 4% chance of dropping at the mo and the bottom 3, 2% or less of staying up.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/so ... mpionship/

[Snowflake Royal]

I know they will but the point that seems be continually missed, is so will we andcwe are doing that more effectively that anyone else in the bottom 4.

We have a 4% chance of dropping at the mo and the bottom 3, 2% or less of staying up.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/so ... mpionship/

Rougefakeometer % chance of promotion or relegation mentioned auto post.

[Lower West]

Changing manager isn't going to resolve the deep rooted challenges that exist within the club. Dai needs to stabilise the club then sell out.

[From Despair To Where?]

I'm not saying this is note true, but players are also performing for their Championship status as well as futures at the club as well, that probably plays a part. Not to go against the job Ince has done so far, he's been at the helm, but it would be interesting to see how we'd react should we survive and he gets the job full time, that would give us a clearer indication at least anyway of who/what the players are fighting for.

I'm sorry but I find this argument come up time and again, how it is the players who gave stepped it up - not just now but this is essentially a re-hash of the we won despite the manager not due to him, yet when we lose it is because the manager didn't do X or Y.

Ince has tightened up the defence, got us stopping crosses and actually playing like a team. This squad has known all season that they may well move on this summer, if they had performed as they have over the last few weeks all season, then the offers they may get would have been a hell of a lot better.

Ince has done a great job in getting these players to play like team not 11 blokes looking at their next move, at a time when that move is only a few games away. He deserves credit and part of that is getting the players to buy into what he wants them to do.

By the logic of that we may as well have kept VP as the players would eventually have performed.

As I say, it's not a criticism of Ince, I think there is just more than one factor to our form. We did win our last game under Pauno, we weren't just going to keep losing forever even with him in charge, but of course I'm aware we had to make a change as well.

But look at the manager at Barnsley, poor as anything since he arrived but then managed to win 3 games in 5 to give themselves some sort of fight against relegation. Although it looks to be in vein, they still managed to improve performances and results under a manager that showed no signs of improving in any of his games previous. So I do think it is a factor that players will improve performances and results towards the end of the season in a relegation battle, no matter who is in charge, but of course it varies from club to club. You could argue against that by saying Hull from 2 seasons ago, but, as I say, it varies from club to club, but it can be a factor I think.

It's not to criticise what Ince has done, all those pro's you've mentioned have happened since he has come in and he deserves praise for that as well as our improved performances and results, but I do think our performances and results would have improved anyway, but maybe not to what we have seen recently.

What counters everything you say is that everything Ince has changed since he came in; ditching zonal marking having better structure and organisation, better fitness, better work rate, have all contributed to better performances and better results and its all simple, basic stuff. Now, it's possible any new manager may have done this but it all points to the problem being Paunovic and his inability to get the basics right or change what was obviously not working.

[AthleticoSpizz]

If that’s how it really played-out behind the scenes….yes

[Millsy]

I'm sorry but I find this argument come up time and again, how it is the players who gave stepped it up - not just now but this is essentially a re-hash of the we won despite the manager not due to him, yet when we lose it is because the manager didn't do X or Y.

Ince has tightened up the defence, got us stopping crosses and actually playing like a team. This squad has known all season that they may well move on this summer, if they had performed as they have over the last few weeks all season, then the offers they may get would have been a hell of a lot better.

Ince has done a great job in getting these players to play like team not 11 blokes looking at their next move, at a time when that move is only a few games away. He deserves credit and part of that is getting the players to buy into what he wants them to do.

By the logic of that we may as well have kept VP as the players would eventually have performed.

As I say, it's not a criticism of Ince, I think there is just more than one factor to our form. We did win our last game under Pauno, we weren't just going to keep losing forever even with him in charge, but of course I'm aware we had to make a change as well.

But look at the manager at Barnsley, poor as anything since he arrived but then managed to win 3 games in 5 to give themselves some sort of fight against relegation. Although it looks to be in vein, they still managed to improve performances and results under a manager that showed no signs of improving in any of his games previous. So I do think it is a factor that players will improve performances and results towards the end of the season in a relegation battle, no matter who is in charge, but of course it varies from club to club. You could argue against that by saying Hull from 2 seasons ago, but, as I say, it varies from club to club, but it can be a factor I think.

It's not to criticise what Ince has done, all those pro's you've mentioned have happened since he has come in and he deserves praise for that as well as our improved performances and results, but I do think our performances and results would have improved anyway, but maybe not to what we have seen recently.

What counters everything you say is that everything Ince has changed since he came in; ditching zonal marking having better structure and organisation, better fitness, better work rate, have all contributed to better performances and better results. Now, it's possible any new manager may have done this but it all points to the problem being Paunovic and his inability to get the basics right or change what was obviously not working.

Exactly Ince seems to have made some clear changes that have benefitted us, as above plus much better use and timing of subs generally. And if we're going to say Ince is enjoying an upturn in form that Pauno would have had anyway, we have to ask would he have presided over the awful 8 games in a row that Pauno did? I honestly don't think any manager would.

But as I say above it's irrelevant comparing him to Pauno. He's the man in the job now and is he doing enough to be given a chance? At this rate yes obviously. He hasn't just sleepwalked into better form with no input from him - he has made clear changes that have helped.

[tmesis]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

[AthleticoSpizz]

…to that, there is no argument

This will not help out in the world of HNA

[Nameless]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

[tmesis]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested.

A low budget club with a generally disillusioned fan base, falling crowds, that will be expected to struggle for a while longer yet will attract high quality candidates?

We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered.

The next manager will be the 6th permanent manager in 6 years.

We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.

That's only because we can't. I don't think too many managers would regard having no transfer budget as a positive sign.

We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.

And it appears to be working to a very low budget, which, if we don't move some high earners on in the summer, will seriously damage the chances of building a competitive squad.

We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.

Again, no in-coming manager would regard having no transfer budget as a bonus. There's also nothing at the club to suggest there's anything in place to suggest we are capable of working that way any more.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ?

I don't know, but the good work he's done so far would put him, for me, ahead of any manager in his first role in being more likely to succeed.

How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?

Again, a question you could ask about and manager in his first role.


The truth is that nobody knows if an untried manager will be better than Paul Ince. I'm just not sure where the belief that somebody else would probably be better comes from. Maybe it's just optimism.

[Nameless]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested.

A low budget club with a generally disillusioned fan base, falling crowds, that will be expected to struggle for a while longer yet will attract high quality candidates?

We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered.

The next manager will be the 6th permanent manager in 6 years.

We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.

That's only because we can't. I don't think too many managers would regard having no transfer budget as a positive sign.

We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.

And it appears to be working to a very low budget, which, if we don't move some high earners on in the summer, will seriously damage the chances of building a competitive squad.

We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.

Again, no in-coming manager would regard having no transfer budget as a bonus. There's also nothing at the club to suggest there's anything in place to suggest we are capable of working that way any more.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ?

I don't know, but the good work he's done so far would put him, for me, ahead of any manager in his first role in being more likely to succeed.

How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?

Again, a question you could ask about and manager in his first role.


The truth is that nobody knows if an untried manager will be better than Paul Ince. I'm just not sure where the belief that somebody else would probably be better comes from. Maybe it's just optimism.

Not sure the quotes within quotes will work !

Yes, of course a Championship club will attract good quality interest. As pointed out in my original post there’s are way more people wanting to manage than there are clubs. Not every goodmanager starts at a club with a huge transfer budget and the trend seems to be more of a return to proper management which isn’t about just buying a team. We would be a great club for a manager looking at the way Coventry, Luton, Brentford etc have worked. We’ll have plenty of good players next season to base a team around with good youngsters just needing some astute additions along the lines of Laurent, Rino, Yiadom, Morrison, Hoilett. All picked up for nothing....
None of your counters really make the case against my belief that if the job was available we’d get good candidates. Lots of clubs with ‘disillusioned’ fans get new managers, because reenergising fans is quick work (see Gomes, Ince, Pauno) whereas it’s much slower to drive them away. It’s just wrong to say we can’t bring in good players for nothing because we do it every year ! We just need to stop wasting money on players who don’t deliver, which we HAVE to do. We won’t have no transfer budget next season, we’ll have one which will need to be used wisely.

I agree that appointing ANY manager is arisk. Lots of clubs appoint managers who appear to be cast iron successes with good track records who then fail for all sorts of reasons (Howe at Burnley, Big Sam at WBA, Coppell at Bristol City, Mourinho at Spurs). I’m not anti Ince but I don’t see why some people think he’s the ONLY option and why he might do better in a very different role than others would. Pessimism perhaps ?

[Snowflake Royal]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

[Nameless]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

I think if you start from a preconceived position and then adapt things to support that position you aren’t offering a very sensible arguement !
The reason we’ve not appointed especially good managers is we’ve rarely in recent years invited applications ! That doesn’t mean we couldn’t run the process differently, and doesn’t mean if we did there wouldn’t be plenty of good people approaching us for consideration.
Whether there are any signs of us following the agreed business plan is again probably down to where you start from. We have a 6 point suspended points deduction if we don’t stick to our plan. That has not been activated which rather suggests we are sticking to the plan. We’ve freed up wages and managed to bring in a number of players, we’ve even agreed at least 3 new contracts with more likely once our safety is confirmed. I’m not sure what signs you are looking for, the lack of any signs that we are not running things in line with the artificial constraints of FFP seems a decent basis to conclude we are sorting things.... but that’s a huge diversion from whether any of the decent managers / potential managers currently looking for clubs wouldn’t fancy a job. We absolutely are far more attractive than most every club in the division given we have a (possible) vacancy and they don’t.....

[Pepe the Horseman]

A blank canvas in the Championship will be a very attractive proposition to a lot of managers, even with restrictions. Whether we'll appoint the right one is a different matter, but we certainly won't be short on applicants.

[Hound]

It’s not really a blank canvas though - the next year maybe

We’ll be under pretty strict restrictions if we can’t offload deadweights like Moore and to. Lesser extent Puscas. We’ll still have a base of a team - Joao, Meite, Ejaria, Dann, McIntyre plus some more

Ince actually has pretty decent managerial record which seems to go under the radar. Especially in situations where it is firefighting and being up against the odds. Which is where we’ll be next year

He’s actually a fairly solid choice for our situation imo. He might fancy trying to make a name for himself as kind of younger Warnock type figure. Stay up this year and do ok next year and he’ll probably be back in the merry go round for a few years

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

The only thing putting me off is that interim managers turned permanent managers do not usually turn out to be too successful, with examples like McDermott with ourselves and even Pardew being more exceptions rather than the norm.

I think it's a good opportunity to give an incoming manager a fresh start with plenty of places to fill in the squad and to give the new manager time to have a season, two or three to come in and build something. We won't be/aren't the only team working on small budgets in this league and they've managed to be successful, Luton and Huddersfield this season for example.

Providing we get to safety and have a good last 4 games of the campaign, I'm not necessarily "against" the idea of Ince taking the job permanently, I just don't see it working out. I'd be happily proven wrong though.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Given that we aren't going to have any obvious high quality candidates begging for the job, what is it about Ince that puts people off him being offered it?

I think we are all aware that a good run as caretaker boss doesn't mean it'll necessarily carry on the same way if given the job full time, but I think it puts him ahead of a total unknown quantity, or a journeyman stopgap type manager.

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

I like how you've referenced the two managers that have earned us our highest league positions since being back in the Championship (Pauno joint with Adkins but going based on the list of the managers above) as "dreadful".

[Snowflake Royal]

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

I like how you've referenced the two managers that have earned us our highest league positions since being back in the Championship (Pauno joint with Adkins but going based on the list of the managers above) as "dreadful".

Because Stam's football was dreadful and his inflexibility and managerial decisions is one of the drivers to our poor position now.

And Pauno benefited from Bowen's work and a fluke start, then quickly deteriorated the team to dreadful.

Both took sides who had performed and turned them into relegation strugglers. The others took struggling teams and either didn't improve them, or improved them a bit briefly.

You'll find few who disagree.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

I like how you've referenced the two managers that have earned us our highest league positions since being back in the Championship (Pauno joint with Adkins but going based on the list of the managers above) as "dreadful".

Because Stam's football was dreadful and his inflexibility and managerial decisions is one of the drivers to our poor position now.

And Pauno benefited from Bowen's work and a fluke start, then quickly deteriorated the team to dreadful.

Both took sides who had performed and turned them into relegation strugglers. The others took struggling teams and either didn't improve them, or improved them a bit briefly.

You'll find few who disagree.

Ok. I'll happily be one of the few who disagree with some of the statements about Stam and Pauno, or what you perceive anyway.

[Nameless]

I don’t doubt we would have high quality candidates interested. There are very few manager jobs and lots of aspiring / unemployed managers. I think right now we would actually make a great place for an ambitious manager wanting to make a mark.
We are no longer a club where the owner will demand instant success and dump the manager if it’s not delivered. We will no longer throw money around on badly thought out signings.
We’re working though the FFP ramifications and seem to have a grip on it and how to work in the future.
We’ve got opportunities to rebuild a squad using good old fashioned methods of talent spotting and actual player development.
We’ve got a good Academy and some good youngsters who have already had a taste of first team football.

I’m not against Ince carrying on but the next stage of the job is totally different to what he has done so far. Is he the man to revamp the squad ? How would he work over a whole season rather than in the short term, fire fighting role in which he really couldn’t lose ? Would he work with a Director of Football ?
And who will actually make the decision ?

Why, if you don't doubt we'd have high quality candidates interested, has every appointment we've made since Adkins been low experience and in most cases poor quality?

It doesn't really matter if we have high quality candidates interested, because we certainly never appoint them, if they are interested.

Clarke - low experience, dodgy record
McDermott - returning short term manager
Stam - low experience, inflexible dreadful manager
Clement - low experience poor record
Gomes - terrible
Bowen - low experience internal appointment
Paunovic - low experience dreadful manager
Ince - interim, hadn't managed for 8 years.

I don't think we're attractive compared to half the teams in the division, and I certainly don't think there's any signs we've learnt our lessons for when the FL stop forcing ourselves to behave.

I like how you've referenced the two managers that have earned us our highest league positions since being back in the Championship (Pauno joint with Adkins but going based on the list of the managers above) as "dreadful".

Almost as crazy as referring to guys with huge footballing experience as ‘low experience’.