Long - Time to go.

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Snowball
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 14:05

Big Foot
Snowball LOL yer Mum

Remember when we beat Boro after being utterly out-classed and going behind 2-0?

That was a player on the floor not giving up (Lita, if memory serves me right)

It's not pretty, or "sexy" but it's fight, heart, never-say-die, and it's just as important as a mazy run that ends in a goal, MORE important than seven mazy runs which end in failure.

I think counting a deflection as an assist is neither sexy nor an example of "never say die"




I just made the point that it wasn't a deflection. Look at the footage.

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Hoop Blah
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 29 Oct 2010 14:17

Snowball not at all. That's just a failure of OBSERVATION. A careful look and the DELIBERATE assist is there to be seen.


Which is where all your stats are coming from and what makes them weak as a source of data in the first place. It's one of the objections you've never covered off on your spamming of the board.

How's the count of 'attacking free-kicks' coming along by the way? How many did we have at Burnley?

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Victor Meldrew » 29 Oct 2010 14:30

bcubed
RobRoyal It won't change Snowball's mind, but this is a nice watch (sorry about the music):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ssxKVAUQQI

Don't think Long would have scored many of those 8)


What strikes me about this is just how natural a footballer Foster was in comparison with Long
Long doesn't have the natural instincts and/or skills and/or speed (yes speed) to score these goals. I don't think he will ever be able to achieve this


I agree with you cubed.
Shane Long IMHO is a Gaelic footballer who has managed to carve out a career as a professional footballer,probably because the money is better.
He has a good spring but his touch and general awareness are both poor.
As for Snowball suggesting that he is "very young" well very young in my eyes is a 16 or 17 yearold not somebody who has played in the Premiership and is nearly 24 years old.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 14:43

Hoop Blah
Snowball not at all. That's just a failure of OBSERVATION. A careful look and the DELIBERATE assist is there to be seen.


Which is where all your stats are coming from and what makes them weak as a source of data in the first place. It's one of the objections you've never covered off on your spamming of the board.

How's the count of 'attacking free-kicks' coming along by the way? How many did we have at Burnley?



on frees, can't be bothered. Far to hard to get the data, and even then we'd have to agree on definitions


Data such as assists is imperfect. So? It still should "even out" like luck

It's still extremely probable that a player awarded 16 assists really does get twice as many assists as a player awarded 8

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Hoop Blah
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 29 Oct 2010 14:50

So you accept that you were totally incorrect on the free kicks debate then?

You also accept that the quality of the stats you're spamming us with is pretty questionable?


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Re: Long - Time to go.

by cmonurz » 29 Oct 2010 14:50

Snowball, how can you seriously judge a player as over-rated when you admit to never having seen him play. How bizarre?!

Is Defoe or Sheringham the better England striker?

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:07

Hoop Blah
(a) So you accept that you were totally incorrect on the free kicks debate then?

(b) You also accept that the quality of the stats you're spamming us with is pretty questionable?



(a) NO
Which is why I said (read slowly) "On frees, can't be bothered. Far to hard to get the data, and even then we'd have to agree on definitions"

FIND A WAY TO GET THE DATA (reasonably, and accurately) AFTER the definition of "attacking free-kick" has been agreed, and then we're on.

(b)
NO

Unlike you I don't make wild guesses or assumptions. I seek out DATA.

How good or bad that data is? Exactly how am I supposed to know that?

What I DO know is it's collected by people who do it as a job
and is far more likely to be more accurate than Hoop's "Cos I sed so."


How good or bad that data is? Funny how I don't remember people dismissing the Reading FC data as given until I started using it.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Platypuss » 29 Oct 2010 16:11

Snowball I nailed my flag to the mast a long time ago. I repeat. If Long avoids serious injury and plays a full season he will score ten Premiership goals, or twenty Championship goals, or thirty in League 1


Previously you said he could get 20 in the Prem! :|

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 29 Oct 2010 16:25

Snowball
Hoop Blah
(a) So you accept that you were totally incorrect on the free kicks debate then?

(b) You also accept that the quality of the stats you're spamming us with is pretty questionable?



(a) NO
Which is why I said (read slowly) "On frees, can't be bothered. Far to hard to get the data, and even then we'd have to agree on definitions"

FIND A WAY TO GET THE DATA (reasonably, and accurately) AFTER the definition of "attacking free-kick" has been agreed, and then we're on.

(b)
NO

Unlike you I don't make wild guesses or assumptions. I seek out DATA.

How good or bad that data is? Exactly how am I supposed to know that?

What I DO know is it's collected by people who do it as a job
and is far more likely to be more accurate than Hoop's "Cos I sed so."


How good or bad that data is? Funny how I don't remember people dismissing the Reading FC data as given until I started using it.


1) You can run away from the debate if you like, but I think we all know it's because your interpretation of the stats which concluded that we only had 1 attacking free kick per game was woefully inaccurate. It's not a case of defining the event, we both counted at least 5 for the Swansea game.

2) You don't assess the quality of your source data? You take it as read that it's accurate and go through all the analysis without an thoughts to it's validity? And you teach stats? I guess it's true, those that can do, those that can't....

As for nobody questioning the clubs stats before you started spamming the board with them, well there wasn't a hell of a lot of need to as nobody would ram them down our collective throat as if they actually meant anything.

There has been many discussions on here over the years about opta's stats (potentially the same source data I suspect) and how they can be an interesting aside but do not really cope well with the intrincate details and variables of a game of football.

What I DO know is it's collected by people who do it as a job
and is far more likely to be more accurate than Hoop's "Cos I sed so


I think we've already established that my guestimate on the number of free kicks was a lot more accurate than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the stats and match reports.

Perhaps if you can't handle being soundly proven wrong you shouldn't be so quick to slag off everyones opinions and considered views and to rely on questionable stats to form your own take on the game.


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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Svlad Cjelli » 29 Oct 2010 16:30

Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:35

cmonurz Snowball, how can you seriously judge a player as over-rated when you admit to never having seen him play. How bizarre?!


EASY. He was a winger/striker who played the majority of his football in League 1, was never bought by a Premiership club, never scored in the Premiership, had a quite ordinary goal-scoring record for Reading. In his final two seasons he scored 7 league goals both seasons. is that hot-shot stuff? He also had a terrible conversion rate (1 in 8.25 chances) far worse than Church or Long (who are playing at a higher level)... the TEAM with him in it, except for one season in League 1 where they scored 70, never excelled on the scoring front. He had a very ordinary assist score (13 in 3 full seasons) and was often called frustrating, and selfish.

16 goals in 35 (05) = 35.80 games (Forster's Best Season according to the player himself IN LEAGUE 1) Age 31
07 goals in 35 (00) = 35.00 games (Championship) Age 30
07 goals in 27 (03) = 27.50 games( Championship) Age 29

30 goals in 97 (08) = 98.33 games = a goal every 3.28 games. (League 1 and Championship)

02 Goals in 12 (00) = 12.00 games (Championship) Age 23
06 Goals in 22 (09) = 23.50 games (Championship) Age 22
09 Goals in 11 (26) = 15.33 games (Championship) Age 21
03 Goals in 07 (22) = 10.67 games PREMIERSHIP Age 20
02 Goals in 09 (12) = 11.00 games PREMIERSHIP Age 19
03 Goals in 01 (10) = 02.67 games Championship Age 18

25 Goals in 62 (79) = 75.16 games = a goal every 3.01 games (Championship and Premiership)

Long comes out clearly better on goals per game, not "a better player" just better on goals-per-game, a statistic

08 Assists in 75.16 games = 1 assist every 9.39 games (excluding penalties won)
13 Assists in 98.33 games = 1 assist every 7.56 games (excluding penalties won)

Forster comes out better on assists, not forgetting his great season (4 assists) was in League 1 when he was at his playing peak


Is Defoe or Sheringham the better England striker?


Defoe was by FAR the better writer.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:36

Platypuss
Snowball I nailed my flag to the mast a long time ago. I repeat. If Long avoids serious injury and plays a full season he will score ten Premiership goals, or twenty Championship goals, or thirty in League 1


Previously you said he could get 20 in the Prem! :|


I have always said 10-20-30 Prem-Championship-league 1

Post where I said "20 in the Prem"

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Ian Royal
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Ian Royal » 29 Oct 2010 16:39

Svlad Cjelli Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:


snowball's in it and sticking to his rather tired and hypocritical looking high horse, so I'd vote yes.


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Hoop Blah
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 29 Oct 2010 16:39

Svlad Cjelli Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:


I'm not sure, there's been a fair amount of competition recently...

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:51


1) You can run away from the debate if you like, but I think we all know it's because your interpretation of the stats which concluded that we only had 1 attacking free kick per game was woefully inaccurate. It's not a case of defining the event, we both counted at least 5 for the Swansea game.




Do I read like a bloke who wants to avoid the debate? I'm avoiding an unsettle-able debate because it's circular and we have no "appeal to authority"

I interpreted" the only stats we had, AND SAID AT THE TIME, VERY FIRST POST, THAT I COULD NOT KNOW THAT THE OS REPORTED ALL FREE-KICKS, AND THAT IT MIGHT BE MORE. Need me to cut and paste my actual words?
I did not "conclude" that we only had 1 free kick per game, I said the OS SHOWED that, and I went out of my way to accurately record what REALLY happened. And IN ONE GAME, I recorded 5.

Should we then say "we get 5 attacking free-kicks per game" based on ONE game?

In that case we score 4 goals every game, cos we did at Burnley.

No we sample over a series of games. Some may be higher than 5, some may come out zero, I don't know. And in the game in question, Swansea had 2. Maybe I should take TWO as the benchmark, or (5+2)/2 = 3.5, or maybe we need more empirical data...



2) You don't assess the quality of your source data? You take it as read that it's accurate and go through all the analysis without an thoughts to it's validity?
And you teach stats? I guess it's true, those that can do, those that can't....

No I do NOT "accept it as accurate". I take it as "the best data I can find". There's no logic to believe it's useless data.

And I DO NOT teach stats. I have NEVER said (in the present tense) that I-TEACH-STATS. Again, find the post where I've said that.

I said I TAUGHT stats.

I have been a full-time professional writer of fiction and creative writing articles since 1992. That's 18 years!!



What I DO know is it's collected by people who do it as a job and is far more likely to be more accurate than Hoop's "Cos I sed so


I think we've already established that my guestimate on the number of free kicks was a lot more accurate than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the stats and match reports.
Perhaps if you can't handle being soundly proven wrong you shouldn't be so quick to slag off everyones opinions and considered views and to rely on questionable stats to form your own take on the game.[/quote]

I will be UTTERLY DELIGHTED to show that we get (say) "an average of 7.9 attacking free-kicks per home game and an average of 5.3 attacking free-kicks per away game. There is NOTHING more enjoyable than discovering a "truth", something based on objective data as opposed to opinion. Guesstimates are bollox. NOTHING has been established except that in the Swansea game we got 5 AFC's. I suspect we got more than one at Burnley but as yet I have no idea as I haven't counted them! And on Saturday we will have our THIRD game to assess. How many games would you say should be the minimum? 6? 8? 10?

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:51

Svlad Cjelli Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:


If you don't READ IT it's not tiresome.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by sandman » 29 Oct 2010 16:53

Hoop Blah
Svlad Cjelli Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:


I'm not sure, there's been a fair amount of competition recently...



You'll need to find some statistics to back that up or Snowball won't believe it.

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Hoop Blah
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 29 Oct 2010 16:54

snowball, I think from your time on HNA we can all see you're better at creative writing and fiction that stats...

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 29 Oct 2010 16:55

sandman
Hoop Blah
Svlad Cjelli Is this the most tiresome and pointless thread ever? :roll:


I'm not sure, there's been a fair amount of competition recently...



You'll need to find some statistics to back that up or Snowball won't believe it.


A question followed by an "I'm not sure" hardly requires analysis

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by brendywendy » 29 Oct 2010 16:56

can we not just agree that measuring performance with eyes/cold hard numbers both have their advantages and disadvantages, and that a mixture of both is probably good.
eyes have to filter the info through the brain which adds all sorts of other factors such as preference for a certain type of football, in built long standing hatred/love of players, what you were focussing on on that particular day

the cold hard numbers dont tell you the whole story, but at least they are free from the subjectivity of the observer

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