SJM - Minutes silence vs Liverpool

[VINTAGE ROYAL]

always sad when some one dies or as at hillsborough lots of people but to move the blame totally on to the ob is wrong. As ever when liverpool are in town how many didnt have tickets but decided they were going in anyway? These are the ones who caused the problem in the 1st place tho it was then compounded by the police losing control and just letting them in.

always the victims, its never your fault

[Anfield Kopite]

always sad when some one dies or as at hillsborough lots of people but to move the blame totally on to the ob is wrong. As ever when liverpool are in town how many didnt have tickets but decided they were going in anyway? These are the ones who caused the problem in the 1st place tho it was then compounded by the police losing control and just letting them in.

always the victims, its never your fault

This is just so inaccurate. Read the report of the H.I.P. who spent over a year studying over 400,000 documents still in existence and concluding that what you have written is in fact nonsense.

[Norfolk Royal]

Pissed Off wrote:

Which part was wrong? Did football fans stop fighting each other out of choice, not because of banning orders, disqualifications from tournaments and such?

When gangs fight it's usually spontaneous i.e. "look, there they are lets get them" or has to be organised over the phone or internet (time, place, number of people and whatever). All I'm saying is that football simplified this process and gave the opportunity at least twice a season for people of rival towns to fight.

If you thought my comment was aimed at the events of Hillsborough then you're wrong. I was saying that in general football fans are mostly to blame for the reputation of football fans.


NR: To answer your points in this and the previous post. You said that football gave degenerates the opportunity to act like a pack of animals for many years.

The logical conclusion to that is that football should be played behind closed doors, which was tried in several instances in the 80s and still happens now. That punishes the majority of well behaved fans of course and is not tenable in the long term for obvious reasons.

You said that fans were forced to behave well by the Government and the authorities.

That is not true almost in its entirety. Incidents of hooliganism did not stop, and still take place now. It is true that banning orders, all seater grounds, tougher sentencing, all had their effect in minor ways.

But, as many authoritative commentators and fans themselves have noted, the real reason that hooliganism waned was that it simply fell out of fashion. It was a fashion at the time for hundreds of young men to travel the country because they found it exciting to do so with the threat, usually, of a possibly violent caper on the horizon. But when the rave culture of the 90s took hold, young people gravitated to that. It simply got boring for most to actively take part.

You said 'most of the scourge of society are football fans.'

That is patent nonsense. The vast majority of football fans are decent and well behaved. That is as much true now as it was in the 80s. It is true that in the 80s, there were occasions when large numbers of hooligans made up parts of the crowd, particularly at small venues, but those occasions were few and far between.

In a crowd of 40K there are of course people who misbehave, but that would be true at any such event attracting a crowd of that size.

Fair enough, I assumed banning orders and such had more of an effect than they apparently did.
I guess that all that is needed in Eastern Europe and other places where hooliganism is still very common is for someone to introduce them to the rave scene (a joke).

I still maintain that an incredibly disproportionate amount of each areas's scum will be found inside a football stadium at 3pm on a Saturday, if you disagree with this I suggest you go to Luton, Burnley, Millwall, West Ham and all the rest to see for yourself.

I've been to all those places and didn't see anything to shake my belief to be honest. Some club's fans have a more notorious reputation than others for sure, but in West Ham etc's normal crowd, the decent people far outweigh hooligans in my view.

[VINTAGE ROYAL]

mate i was there (with a nffc fan) getting asked all day for tickets and could of sold them for a good profit. These people were going in what ever happened

[Anfield Kopite]

mate i was there (with a nffc fan) getting asked all day for tickets and could of sold them for a good profit. These people were going in what ever happened

I was there 2. If they were asking for spares they wanted to buy them.

[RoyalBlue]

I cannot believe the people on here picking on Liverpool supporters with 'Sun Stereotypes'.

Just how would we have felt if some of our supporters had died in this manner and had then been castigated by senior police officers and politicians telling outright lies and fabricating evidence to support those lies? The fact that no one has faced criminal charges for that fabrication is absolutely scandalous.

And yes, it could have happened to some of our suppporters. I can certainly remember some pretty worrying potential 'crush' scenarios at the biggest games at Elm Park. There were even times when trying to leave after games through the gates at the back of the Southbank you could take your feet off the ground and be carried forward, such was the pressure of bodies - that really wasn't that far from being a nasty accident.

[Snowball]

I cannot believe the people on here picking on Liverpool supporters with 'Sun Stereotypes'.

Because it's easy, and they are basically racists.

[RoyalBlue]

I can't really understand why any football fan would want to honour Margaret Thatcher before a football match.

Let's face it, she and her government were hardly friends of football supporters! To them we were all the scourge of society, to be deprived of our rights and treated like shyte because football, rather than the society the politicians had helped create, was the source of all evil.

Wasn't around pre-90's but from what I hear it was pretty violent times; my Dad didn't go to games for about 20 years because it just simply wasn't worth the agggro. It seems to me that whilst football violence may have had its roots in wider social problems it was much more than this alone.

Football gave degenerates the opportunity to act like packs of animals for many years and did not really attempt to stop this mentality until forced to do so by Governments and authority.

.

And it's football's fault, rather than societies and the politicians influencing the culture of those societies?

What was football supposed to do? And if football hadn't existed, those degenerates would have associated themselves with something else. Football was an easy way for our shyster politicians (a plague on all of their houses) to shift the blame for their failings onto someone else. This debate really is rekindling memories of how despicable our politicians were at that time (nor are they much better now).

[No Fixed Abode]

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/heysel

Couldn't see that on the home page.

[VINTAGE ROYAL]

AK, Yes they were trying to buy those tickets but they were going to get in with or without them, this was a big part of the problem. People should not have died at a foofball match but to say that liverpool fans were inocent of any blame is wrong.

Snowball, I dont normally get involved in personal stuff but I will make an exception for you. You are a prick

[Snowball]

AK, Yes they were trying to buy those tickets but they were going to get in with or without them, this was a big part of the problem. People should not have died at a foofball match but to say that liverpool fans were inocent of any blame is wrong.

Snowball, I dont normally get involved in personal stuff but I will make an exception for you. You are a prick

And I shall treat your remark with all the respect it deserves.

[P!ssed Off]

I can't really understand why any football fan would want to honour Margaret Thatcher before a football match.

Let's face it, she and her government were hardly friends of football supporters! To them we were all the scourge of society, to be deprived of our rights and treated like shyte because football, rather than the society the politicians had helped create, was the source of all evil.

Wasn't around pre-90's but from what I hear it was pretty violent times; my Dad didn't go to games for about 20 years because it just simply wasn't worth the agggro. It seems to me that whilst football violence may have had its roots in wider social problems it was much more than this alone.

Football gave degenerates the opportunity to act like packs of animals for many years and did not really attempt to stop this mentality until forced to do so by Governments and authority.

.

And it's football's fault, rather than societies and the politicians influencing the culture of those societies?

What was football supposed to do? And if football hadn't existed, those degenerates would have associated themselves with something else. Football was an easy way for our shyster politicians (a plague on all of their houses) to shift the blame for their failings onto someone else. This debate really is rekindling memories of how despicable our politicians were at that time (nor are they much better now).

If football authorities are unable to influence or change attitudes or behaviour of fans and clubs then why do people continually demand authorities such as UEFA and FIFA to tackle issues such as racism?

In terms of racism from fans (as well as players) obviously UEFA is unable to completely change societal problems but they can still attempt to change attitudes within football. For example, just a few days ago UEFA set a guideline of standard 10 game ban for players found guilty of racism.

Behaviour at football matches is IMO an exaggeration of behaviour in society, and not a direct parallel. The type of slurs still heard in football grounds (more likely homophobic than racist these days) would get you arrested if done in the street. This just goes to show IMO that there is a football culture that is at least partially distinct from basic society.

[Norfolk Royal]

There is no such thing as society.

[Cobi]

Just seen some Liverpool fans tweeting how they don't trust the club's intentions for the minutes silence and they will sing all over it. What a bunch of idiots! Madejski really has caused a massive stir here. This could very well go tits up tomorrow.

I couldn't care less about a politician passing away. However I do care about a tragedy like Hillsborough. No football fan should go to a game and never come home. No father should take his daughters to a game and they both die. That same father shouldn't have to try and resuscitate his dying daughter and suck out the vomit from her throat to try and get her to breathe, then be torn whether to travel in the ambulance with one daughter, or stay by the side of the other. No football ban should be caught in a crush with his arms forced up and his elbow caught in the throat of another fan, who desperately mutters that he is killing him, only to watch his purple face lose consciousness and then he drop beneath everyone's feet and trodden on! I will be silent for everyone affected by the loss of those 96 men, women and children and their families, and I hope their supporters are too!

RIP. My thoughts are with those lost and their families tomorrow. It wont be easy for any genuine football fan.

[Divvy]

Just seen some Liverpool fans tweeting how they don't trust the club's intentions for the minutes silence and they will sing all over it. What a bunch of idiots! Madejski really has caused a massive stir here. This could very well go tits up tomorrow.

I couldn't care less about a politician passing away. However I do care about a tragedy like Hillsborough. No football fan should go to a game and never come home. No father should take his daughters to a game and they both die. That same father shouldn't have to try and resuscitate his dying daughter and suck out the vomit from her throat to try and get her to breathe, then be torn whether to travel in the ambulance with one daughter, or stay by the side of the other. No football ban should be caught in a crush with his arms forced up and his elbow caught in the throat of another fan, who desperately mutters that he is killing him, only to watch his purple face lose consciousness and then he drop beneath everyone's feet and trodden on! I will be silent for everyone affected by the loss of those 96 men, women and children and their families, and I hope their supporters are too!

RIP. My thoughts are with those lost and their families tomorrow. It wont be easy for any genuine football fan.

Bloody hell. You got me with that!

[Wipped]

[SydenhamRoyal]

Just seen some Liverpool fans tweeting how they don't trust the club's intentions for the minutes silence and they will sing all over it. What a bunch of idiots! Madejski really has caused a massive stir here. This could very well go tits up tomorrow.

I couldn't care less about a politician passing away. However I do care about a tragedy like Hillsborough. No football fan should go to a game and never come home. No father should take his daughters to a game and they both die. That same father shouldn't have to try and resuscitate his dying daughter and suck out the vomit from her throat to try and get her to breathe, then be torn whether to travel in the ambulance with one daughter, or stay by the side of the other. No football ban should be caught in a crush with his arms forced up and his elbow caught in the throat of another fan, who desperately mutters that he is killing him, only to watch his purple face lose consciousness and then he drop beneath everyone's feet and trodden on! I will be silent for everyone affected by the loss of those 96 men, women and children and their families, and I hope their supporters are too!

RIP. My thoughts are with those lost and their families tomorrow. It wont be easy for any genuine football fan.

Because I knew the elder of the 2 daughters you refer to (her name was Sarah Hicks) I will be honouring the minute's silence tomorrow. I hope every other Reading fan at the game tomorrow does too.

[AirRaidSiren]

Please, although I have no time for Liverpool and their delusional fans, respect the minute's silence for the 96 who lost their lives at a football match. oxf*rd the politics involved.

That's what it was all about, people died going to watch their favourite team. It's one of those moments where I remember where I was and what I was doing at the time the news broke, watching the live footage was....heartbreaking.

R.I.P the 96.

[Snowball]

Cobi

I appreciate what U say but to SING is the perfect solution

One minute of You'll Never Walk Alone is a clear tribute to the 96
And not in any way ambiguous


I can think of no reason why silence would be better than that

[Millsy]

I'm confused can someone help me here.

First I hear we're doing this for MT

Now Im reading were doing this for Hilsborough.

I'm getting confused in my old age. Which is it?

Is Sir John, REALLY so f**king stupid as to have ever thought a minutes silence for MT would be good thing? (I liked MT btw but still I find it disgusting).