Hard to see any progress for the forseeable future

[Thaumagurist*]

Good post, Mr A.

[readingbedding]

Hey, he's won at least a grand betting on Reading's 'fortunes'.

[Maguire]

the fact that we have regular first team members having come up from the academy must surely show that progress is being made?

Not necessarily. It could mean that we haven't gone out and bought adequate replacements for this level of football, so are left having to throw youngsters into battle every week.

Not saying this is my viewpoint, but I wouldn't consider their introduction (welcome though it is) indicative of "progress" on the larger scale.

Then again I'm fooked if I'm reading all 20 pages of this thread but I suspect it's going to ebb and flow over the coming weeks as we oscillate between victory and defeat.

[Thaumagurist*]

I would hope we would oscillate to victories more often than to defeats.

[Platypuss]

I would hope we would oscillate to victories more often than to defeats.

Schards doesn't - he's got his eyes on £100.

[Riseley]

Using Mr A's analogy Southampton F.C. have a very promising future. I also agree that selling your best players for inflated fees and throwing in the kids is a blue-print for prudent and sustainable success. By success I mean permanent membership of this division and a healthy balance sheet. I look forward to many millions coming our way when Doyle, Hunt and Harper depart in January.

[Archie's penalty]

I would hope we would oscillate to victories more often than to defeats.

Schards doesn't - he's got his eyes on £100.

You're bitchy to both 'sides' aren't you?

[Schards#2]

Schards

The title of your thread implies that you cannot see any progress for the foreseeable future; can you actually define what you mean by progress and foreseeable future in the context of the title of this thread? This is because if you can't understand why individuals would wonder why 2 consecutive home victories where 10 goals are scored and none conceded DOESN'T represent progress in the foreseeable future (from when you posed the question), than it can only be because your definitions differ from everyone elses.

If (as I suspect) you mean the longer team future of the club, and maybe its longer term ambitions, then again I'm a little surprised; obviously being relegated means that we are in a worse position than where we were a few months ago, and the whys and wherefores of how that came about have been done to death - however, we are in the Championship now, so everything the club does fom now has to be seen in that context.

I posted a week and a half ago that I disagreed with your premise that there was no progress to be seen - the fact that we have regular first team members having come up from the academy must surely show that progress is being made? Furthermore, the starting 11 are beginning to gel and whilst away results to now have been dissappointing (and performances more so) you are basing your whole point on the inherent belief that that situation will not change, and I simply find that position incredible bearing in mind the last 4 most recent performances; even you must accept that performances are getting better?

As for the longer term, again, I find your attitude surprising with regard to expanding the stadium - on the one hand Mr Mad and the club are castigated for a lack of ambition, then with the next breath they are castigated for having the temerity of planning for the long term with an expansion of the stadium! At times it is hard to know what some people really want. Also, the financial prudence of the club constantly being called into question is one I don't understand - this weekend we see revealed Pompey's situation; I'm sure that if they go under in a couple of Years, the guy with the bell will be able to look fondly back at when they won the FA Cup - even though he no longer has his club to support. I apologise that my posting about what the current World financial situation means to football clubs was so readily dismissed or ignored, but the reality of the situation is that clubs who don't generate players and revenue will struggle - and we are placed very well to be one of those clubs that does progress both on and off the pitch.

Sorry this has been so long, but I think you have posted something on the bounce from a single terrible away performance and now find yourself digging a hole.

The forseeable future i'm speaking in terms of is the next couple of years or so subject to Madejski selling up in the interim. Therefore, the last two home results don't really impact greatly on this.

Looking at the squad, it's abilities and the manager, over this timescale, I think it's hard to see us making significant progress. We may, but it's hard to see. We have a chairman who doesn't really want to be here, a manager who wants a break and several players who would rather be elsewhere. In January, we are likely to lose some of those players as they will still want away. We are unlikely to replace them adequately because the chairman is no longer the driving force behind the club he once was and the manager is unlikely to be here next season.

At the end of the season, we are likely to lose the manager whatever the outcome of the season. As Newcastle are finding, it's no easy to attract the most suitable candidates to a club which the chairman is keen to sell. These are the reasons for my opinion, not a poor away performance at Ipswich. As i've said repeatedly, one, or event eight results don't alter the reasons for my concerns.

As for the acadamy players, it's nice to see them coming through but are they making the team significantly better here and now?

As for the extention, the argument has been done to death but I don't see the demand for it, in this division or the Premiership.

If someone can address my actual concerns rather than trying to pigeonhole any criticism of the club, (not that this actually is criticism more an observation of where we are at), as a kneejerk reaction to a bad performance it would be both refreshing and different. I won't be holding my breath.

[Thaumagurist*]

We have a chairman who doesn't really want to be here,

Did he actually say that?

a manager who wants a break

Has he said that this season? I know he said that at some point last season, but I guess he was very down about how the season was panning out, I doubt he wants a break now - he's quite happy to be at Reading. That may change at the end of the season, we don't know. Ridiculous of you to bring that one up.

and several players who would rather be elsewhere.

Several? Are you quite sure? I only seem to recall two of the current squad publicly saying that they'd like to be in the Premiership.

In January, we are likely to lose some of those players as they will still want away.

Well, as we have seen in the last transfer window that we won't sell them just because they want to go, the offer for them has to be one that is right for us. So your conviction that we will sell them is based on your unfounded opinion.

We are unlikely to replace them adequately because the chairman is no longer the driving force behind the club he once was and the manager is unlikely to be here next season.

Do you really think so? We shall see.

[Schards#2]

Yes - Every interview he gives he talks about wanting to sell

Yes - Coppell's made no secret about wanting a break. What is ridiculous about making that point?

Yes - Hunt Doyle and Harper that we are aware of

We didn't sell them close season because nobody made an offer for them. We did appear to sell everyone we received an offer for

Do I really think so? No, i'm making it all up to pass the time off day

[Thaumagurist*]

Yes - Every interview he gives he talks about wanting to sell

I don't think wanting to sell means he doesn't want to be here. He probably thinks Reading would benefit from a benefactor who is more wealthier than him.

Yes - Coppell's made no secret about wanting a break. What is ridiculous about making that point?

Ridiculous because he said it last season. If he really wanted a break, why didn't he resign at the end of last season? If we do get promoted, do you really think he will want to quit then?

Yes - Hunt Doyle and Harper that we are aware of

I don't seem to remember Harper saying he definitely wants to go, I seem to remember Coppell saying that he was happy to either stay or go depending on whether Reading accepts an offer or not. I don't remember Doyle making any public comments - only Stephen Hunt has referred to his conversation with Doyle whilst they were on duty for Ireland. The other I can remember is Bikey, but he has only said it in response to a question from an interviewer about whether he would like to play in France.

Your suggestion that several want to leave is merely hyperbole, I would suggest that only a couple are actually wanting to go. And they will only get their transfer if the offer is acceptable to the club, not the player.

We didn't sell them close season because nobody made an offer for them. We did appear to sell everyone we received an offer for

Hmmm, you sure of that? I seem to remember newspaper reports that Middlesbrough had an offer for Harper turned down and Bolton and Middlesbrough making a pathetic pact not to get into a bidding war for Harper. And I'm sure with the Kitson, Shorey and Sonko transfers there was a bit of haggling behind the scenes that you couldn't possibly know of.

[Schards#2]

First point - I would suggest that the fact he wants to sell means he doesn't want to be chairman any more. Isn't this bleedin' obvious?

Second Point - Yes, I do think Coppell will leave even if we get promoted

Third Point - Do you think these players are lying when they said they wanted to be in the premiership then?

Fourth Point - We sold Kitson, Shorey and Sonko and these are apparently, the only players we received offers for. Whether we accepted the first or fifth offer is irrelevent.

[Mr Angry]

I can understand the concern you feel Schards - pretty well most fans have similar concerns following any relegation - but I feel that you are looking at the situation far too pessimistically; rather than dissect every point made, as a general observation I think you are making a lot of assumptions as to what will happen, and what won't happen - all with the worst case scenario highlighted. And to compare our situation to that of Newcastle is either lazy or daft! There is no way we are in the situation Newcastle are in off the pitch, and as for not being able to attract a manager cos the Chairman wants to sell - I suspect it is more to do with the fact that any Manager worth his salt knows that they will be carrying the can for the decisions of Dennis Wise.

But we digress.

I still don't understand what you mean by "significant progress"? Can you set some sort of target that can be judged? Or is it wholly subjective? In other words, will promotion back to the Premiership this season be "significant" or merely "adequate"? Will us challenging for a Champions League spot in that time frame be "significant"? Bearing in mind that we are in the Championship at the moment. Or is it more a gut feel?

I would love to address your concerns as a fellow fan, but whilst all that is being discussed are suppositions, prejudices and feelings, there is no way anyone can adequately do so. All I can say is that I think Mr Mad will sell - if and when the price is right - and until then will still be with us supporting us as he has done for all these years; that Coppell will continue to be in charge of the football club until the end of his contract at least, that we may lose some players in January but until then it is in the best interests of those players to give us 100%, and that we may well buy players to replace them - though not costing as much either in transfer fees, signing on fees or wages as the players we sell, and that, as a club, we have a chance of getting into the play-offs this season and from there, who knows.

Speakng personally, my concerns with RFC are this; when we get promoted again (as I believe we will at some point) will we learn from the mistakes we made last time? if we do, then I will be happy; if not, then there really will be no excuses.

And yes, I do actually believe that the academy players are making a positive impact here and now, not least because, as a fan, I want to support a club in which lads who have come through our academy are playing in the first team; I don't want us to ever be in the position to spend £32M on a player who 24 hrs earlier had said his head and heart were with another club - because I believe when we are one down away at Doncaster on a freezing night in February, we will be able to rely on our players who want to play for the club more than expensive mercenaries to rescue the game for us.

[Thaumagurist*]

First point - I would suggest that the fact he wants to sell means he doesn't want to be chairman any more. Isn't this bleedin' obvious?

And I would suggest that he wants somebody richer than him to help Reading to the next level - anything wrong with that?

Second Point - Yes, I do think Coppell will leave even if we get promoted

And why do you think he would do that?

Third Point - Do you think these players are lying when they said they wanted to be in the premiership then?

Where did I suggest that they were lying? They may say they want to be in the Premiership, but do they say they want to leave the club? They may be saying they would like to get to the Premiership with Reading.

Fourth Point - We sold Kitson, Shorey and Sonko and these are apparently, the only players we received offers for. Whether we accepted the first or fifth offer is irrelevent.

You seem to have missed my point that not all offers are publicly confirmed by the club, so how do you know that those were the only players that the club received offers for? None of us would know this for sure.

[brendywendy]

from my point of view
from where we supposedly were after last season:

down, dejected, our four best players gone, poor replacements bought if any, no chance of promotion, definate chance of relegation etc etc according to many

to

confident, attacking, skillfull, (at home at least!) replacement players looking very accomplished at this level at least, hunt and armstrong looking like more absolute bargains, definate chance of promotion

is progress.

[T.R.O.L.I.]

Second Point - Yes, I do think Coppell will leave even if we get promoted

And why do you think he would do that?

So that he can finish his career on a high - wouldn't be the first manager to do so and certainly won't be the last...

[Thaumagurist*]

Second Point - Yes, I do think Coppell will leave even if we get promoted

And why do you think he would do that?

So that he can finish his career on a high - wouldn't be the first manager to do so and certainly won't be the last...

I've also just realised that his contract expires at the end of the season. Perhaps, if promotion looks remotely likely, Reading will be trying to open talks with him to extend his contract for another year?

[Royal Rother]

I really don't think he's the sort to want to finish on a high (ego doesn't feature on his list of characteristics) - if he goes it'll be because he's had enough.

[T.R.O.L.I.]

I really don't think he's the sort to want to finish on a high (ego doesn't feature on his list of characteristics) - if he goes it'll be because he's had enough.

Perhaps not - but if you change "on a high" to something along the lines of "Having, in his own mind, repaid the faith shown by the club following relegation by getting RFC back into the Premier League". Not too far apart by way of sentiment IMO.

[Dirk Gently]

Second Point - Yes, I do think Coppell will leave even if we get promoted

And why do you think he would do that?

So that he can finish his career on a high - wouldn't be the first manager to do so and certainly won't be the last...

FWIW I think he'll leave if we go up - and I'd support that, too. I think SC's great ability is in building a team and getting it to play above the sum of the parts and in discovering cheap bargains as part of the.

But I don't think he's the best manager to keep a team in the PL, and to do the necessary "refreshing" that's needed to transform a team in those circumstances.