BFTG - Sunderland (H)

[Snowflake Royal]

Can someone who understands football better than I do enlighten me why we don’t try and play like we did when we had our biggest, most dominant and most comprehensive win?

I get with a small squad you probably don’t have the fitness levels to consistently play at such a high intensity - but there has to be some compromise, some half-way house. Against Blackburn we pressed and harried high up the pitch and it saw results. Ever since we’ve decided to completely surrender possession from the start, only engage them in our half and increasingly deeper and deeper. When you invite pressure you open your up to mistakes and you have to be on your A game.

I understand we have Joao who obviously isn’t known for pressing, but if he doesn’t score he’s generally useless. He couldn’t hold up a hanky, but it isn’t just him. The whole team is just sitting back more and it looks at times like Tince is the only one trying to push up.

We need to play more on the front foot and engage them in their own half. I thought Sunderland played well, in truth they looked like a team playing right on the edge of their abilities (a lot of their touches and flicks on another day would have been harmless, instead they were perfect, equally they seemed to get the rub of the green and the bounce of the ball), but they deserved that because of the effort and the desire they put in. They’re a League One team and we genuinely made them look like one of the Top 4 of the prem, the gulf was huge all over the park and that is unacceptable.

Paul Ince says he wants his team to play on the front foot, then he needs to work out how to do that because we haven’t played on the front foot for a month.

Thing is, it's the way we started the season too. On Joao, if the rest of the team steps up he'll contribute to the press. But he won't bother if he's left on his own because its a pointless use of his energy. Ince will, but his 100 mile an hour pressing is useless if he's the only one.

I think our lack of pace at the back has us terrified of playing a high line, and the shape doesn't really allow it.

Against Blackburn we had Yiadom transitioning between RCB, RFB and RWB... giving a bit of pace in the middle of defence. Without him the back 3 are woefully slow.

I think we miss NGW as well. He had endless energy. Not the best defender or most skillful, but he really helped us get up and down. Rahman and Hoilett don't have the same atheleticism.

We're carrying Hendrick, which is fine when everyone plays well, but when they don't he's terrible. He ambles around not having any significant impact off the ball in defence or attack or on the ball. Loum doesn't look fit. Joao doesn’t look fit.

I've never liked the back 5 and didn't think it would work long term, but there were moments. It just leaves us too easily way too deep and suddenly we've got 20% possession and maybe one player in their half.

Or the WBs do go forward, we lose it and suddenly we have 3 glacial CBs trying to deal with being run at whilst covering the wide channels.

[Snowflake Royal]

Also, even I think Ejaria has to play over Hendrick.

[Hound]

Think they’ll have a shot at the top six, complete contrast to the shambles they were the last time they were in the Championship

Although Mowbray has a recent history of strong runs followed by winless runs - Blackburn’s collapse was really poor last season

It’s difficult to say really. They certainly played well but we were so utterly inept it’s difficult to make a judgement on them

I mean how easily they kept passing it through from the short keeper goal kick to seemingly being one on one with one of our defenders was absolutely amateur stuff. Like being in a training session vs mannequins

They made a lot of errors and for all their possession and easy win, until the first goal they basically hadn't threatened us at all.

Don't get me wrong, they were tidy, and they capitalised on our shitness. But anyone with a modicum of pace and skill could have played through us like that the way we were playing. Three excellent finishes though.

They had a couple of decent openings before they scored. Couple of bits of last ditch defending stopped them scoring tbf

[windermereROYAL]

Holmes played a backward pass in front of the east stand, and he turned round and glared when they disapproved.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

A few things;

I have said this several times now, Joao is not a target man. He is not strong enough in the air, if thats the ball we are going to play as an out ball for the rest off the season then god help us. Batth wont have much easier game than last night.

Tom Ince was chasing and pressing by himself last night first half - either we do it as 4s and 5s or not at all, If he is the only one pressing that makes it so much easier to pass around him to create 2 on 1s across the team. He can turn around and shout and scream at everyone but ultimately it is him that is doing more harm. Add in Joao staying up as the 'target man' then the opposite fullback can just trot upfield stretching the play.

I am not sure why Hoilet starts over 2 recognised LBs.

[Stranded]

A few things;

I have said this several times now, Joao is not a target man. He is not strong enough in the air, if thats the ball we are going to play as an out ball for the rest off the season then god help us. Batth wont have much easier game than last night.

Tom Ince was chasing and pressing by himself last night first half - either we do it as 4s and 5s or not at all, If he is the only one pressing that makes it so much easier to pass around him to create 2 on 1s across the team. He can turn around and shout and scream at everyone but ultimately it is him that is doing more harm. Add in Joao staying up as the 'target man' then the opposite fullback can just trot upfield stretching the play.

I am not sure why Hoilet starts over 2 recognised LBs.

He might be doing more "harm" but if Ince is the only one who appears to following the game plan then he has every right to get on his teammates case. Else he falls in with them and we just become even more passive.

[Norfolk Royal]

Can someone who understands football better than I do enlighten me why we don’t try and play like we did when we had our biggest, most dominant and most comprehensive win?

I get with a small squad you probably don’t have the fitness levels to consistently play at such a high intensity - but there has to be some compromise, some half-way house. Against Blackburn we pressed and harried high up the pitch and it saw results. Ever since we’ve decided to completely surrender possession from the start, only engage them in our half and increasingly deeper and deeper. When you invite pressure you open your up to mistakes and you have to be on your A game.

I understand we have Joao who obviously isn’t known for pressing, but if he doesn’t score he’s generally useless. He couldn’t hold up a hanky, but it isn’t just him. The whole team is just sitting back more and it looks at times like Tince is the only one trying to push up.

We need to play more on the front foot and engage them in their own half. I thought Sunderland played well, in truth they looked like a team playing right on the edge of their abilities (a lot of their touches and flicks on another day would have been harmless, instead they were perfect, equally they seemed to get the rub of the green and the bounce of the ball), but they deserved that because of the effort and the desire they put in. They’re a League One team and we genuinely made them look like one of the Top 4 of the prem, the gulf was huge all over the park and that is unacceptable.

Paul Ince says he wants his team to play on the front foot, then he needs to work out how to do that because we haven’t played on the front foot for a month.

'We don't have the fitness levels to play at a consistently high tempo.' Really?

They haven't played for nine days, how much rest do they want?

[Coppells Lost Coat]

Tom Ince was chasing and pressing by himself last night first half - either we do it as 4s and 5s or not at all, If he is the only one pressing that makes it so much easier to pass around him to create 2 on 1s across the team. He can turn around and shout and scream at everyone but ultimately it is him that is doing more harm. Add in Joao staying up as the 'target man' then the opposite fullback can just trot upfield stretching the play.

He might be doing more "harm" but if Ince is the only one who appears to following the game plan then he has every right to get on his teammates case. Else he falls in with them and we just become even more passive.

I would say that as he was the only one and Paul Ince wasn't having a go on the side lines that Tom was the one going against the game plan.

[Millsy]

Tom Ince was chasing and pressing by himself last night first half - either we do it as 4s and 5s or not at all, If he is the only one pressing that makes it so much easier to pass around him to create 2 on 1s across the team. He can turn around and shout and scream at everyone but ultimately it is him that is doing more harm. Add in Joao staying up as the 'target man' then the opposite fullback can just trot upfield stretching the play.

He might be doing more "harm" but if Ince is the only one who appears to following the game plan then he has every right to get on his teammates case. Else he falls in with them and we just become even more passive.

I would say that as he was the only one and Paul Ince wasn't having a go on the side lines that Tom was the one going against the game plan.

Good points chaps. Either way it's a cockup of communication. It felt like there were 11 individuals out there doing whatever they felt might have been a good idea at the time. Like one second you have Joao in the depths of defence while Tom is up pressing, another second you have Hoilett up the pitch picking his nose for a couple of goals while they 'break' and TMac thinking "nah I won't push out left while Hoillett is up there I'll stay here central thank you very much". So strange when we've seen them play as a fearsome cohesive unit in some games this season.

[leon]

I think teams are just working us out now. Start of the season after such a turnover of players none of the teams playing us knew how we'd play, nine games in and our pattern of play is known and opposition managers know our weaknesses. We were never going to win the league with this set of players we're just got to hope Ince can keep the team spirit together enough to finish out of the bottom three. Mid-table would be an outstanding season given where we where at the end of last season.

I'm not sure that the opposition have worked out that we'd just bang the ball to Joao whenever he was surrounded by defenders, not support him, stand off every single challenge, whilst being physically incapable of finding a man in hoops with a pass.

[CountryRoyal]

Can someone who understands football better than I do enlighten me why we don’t try and play like we did when we had our biggest, most dominant and most comprehensive win?

I get with a small squad you probably don’t have the fitness levels to consistently play at such a high intensity - but there has to be some compromise, some half-way house. Against Blackburn we pressed and harried high up the pitch and it saw results. Ever since we’ve decided to completely surrender possession from the start, only engage them in our half and increasingly deeper and deeper. When you invite pressure you open your up to mistakes and you have to be on your A game.

I understand we have Joao who obviously isn’t known for pressing, but if he doesn’t score he’s generally useless. He couldn’t hold up a hanky, but it isn’t just him. The whole team is just sitting back more and it looks at times like Tince is the only one trying to push up.

We need to play more on the front foot and engage them in their own half. I thought Sunderland played well, in truth they looked like a team playing right on the edge of their abilities (a lot of their touches and flicks on another day would have been harmless, instead they were perfect, equally they seemed to get the rub of the green and the bounce of the ball), but they deserved that because of the effort and the desire they put in. They’re a League One team and we genuinely made them look like one of the Top 4 of the prem, the gulf was huge all over the park and that is unacceptable.

Paul Ince says he wants his team to play on the front foot, then he needs to work out how to do that because we haven’t played on the front foot for a month.

'We don't have the fitness levels to play at a consistently high tempo.' Really?

They haven't played for nine days, how much rest do they want?

You've misunderstood.

I said, we don't have the squad size to maintain the intensity demonstrated against Blackburn. We have seldom shown that since.

[Dave the rave]

Hoilett set the tone early on by giving up on a chase when he didn't win the first ball. Looked proper lethargic.

Was it just me or did Lumley take a gamble by pulling his hand away for their first goal thinking it was going wide?

[South Coast Royal]

I took a mate to the game last night for his first home game for 10 years.
Before the game I said that we are not the most skilful of sides but the effort shown in all home games has been excellent.

Last night was nothing like earlier games; we were outthought and outfought and even the miniscule Pritchard was outmuscling our midfielders.

Do they ever talk about the opposition?
Roberts is all left foot so if you are a defender just show him onto his right but no, they let him come inside on his left without closing him down and he coolly passed the ball into the net, twice.
Worrying times when they can be that bad and worse than in either the Rotherham or Sheff. Utd games.

Oh and road works and diversion on the M3 meant getting home at 12-45 and I had a fine waiting for me for £70 for entering the bus lane near the stadium for about 5 yards before the Middlesboro game.
Not the best of days/nights.

[Snowflake Royal]

Hoilett set the tone early on by giving up on a chase when he didn't win the first ball. Looked proper lethargic.

Was it just me or did Lumley take a gamble by pulling his hand away for their first goal thinking it was going wide?

And the second.

[Vision]

It is a good question from CR although I don’t understand the comment that Sunderland are a L1 side. They are a decent Championship side.

Against Blackburn we closed them down constantly and it worked. Yet after a ten day break the players were so lethargic last night. Is it purely motivational? Did Ince give them such a rocket after Rotherham that they went out to then prove a point v Blackburn?

I suspect Ince looked at Sunderland as a similar team to ‘Boro where we sat back and let them have the ball and aim to hit them on the break . Blackburn , we set traps high up the pitch and they fell into them .

Ince clearly expected Sunderland to play with 3 at the back and tried to relay to the players about 10 minutes in that they were actually playing 4-2-3-1. But let’s be honest up for 40 mins it was a game where we were dire but they never looked like scoring . Then at the moment we changed formation , they lost their only striker and suddenly developed a cutting edge . Game over in about 3 minutes .

I keep hearing people talk about playing on the “front foot” but never know what this means. Again with Blackburn we tried to win the ball back high up the pitch but in pretty much every other game , including the wins , we’ve sat back with the intention of hitting sides on the break . By definition I’d say that’s not playing on the front foot .

Bottom line of course is it’s all moot when you can’t string 2-3 passes together all game and don’t run with the opposition’s attackers.

Can’t escape the feeling that despite all the talk of an improved attitude and “ having our club back” we still fundamentally fall into the same bad habits and have ridden our luck a little to get 5 wins under our belt .

The good news is that Ince seems well aware of this and knows exactly where this squad stands in terms of realistic expectations .

[Zip]

It is a good question from CR although I don’t understand the comment that Sunderland are a L1 side. They are a decent Championship side.

Against Blackburn we closed them down constantly and it worked. Yet after a ten day break the players were so lethargic last night. Is it purely motivational? Did Ince give them such a rocket after Rotherham that they went out to then prove a point v Blackburn?

I suspect Ince looked at Sunderland as a similar team to ‘Boro where we sat back and let them have the ball and aim to hit them on the break . Blackburn , we set traps high up the pitch and they fell into them .

Ince clearly expected Sunderland to play with 3 at the back and tried to relay to the players about 10 minutes in that they were actually playing 4-2-3-1. But let’s be honest up for 40 mins it was a game where we were dire but they never looked like scoring . Then at the moment we changed formation , they lost their only striker and suddenly developed a cutting edge . Game over in about 3 minutes .

I keep hearing people talk about playing on the “front foot” but never know what this means. Again with Blackburn we tried to win the ball back high up the pitch but in pretty much every other game , including the wins , we’ve sat back with the intention of hitting sides on the break . By definition I’d say that’s not playing on the front foot .

Bottom line of course is it’s all moot when you can’t string 2-3 passes together all game and don’t run with the opposition’s attackers.

Can’t escape the feeling that despite all the talk of an improved attitude and “ having our club back” we still fundamentally fall out not the same bad habits and have ridden our luck a little to get 5 wins under our belt .

The good news is that Ince seems well aware of this and knows exactly where this squad stands in terms of realistic expectations .

Yes we have been happy to cede possession to our opponents and always play like the away side and counter. I don’t particularly like it but if we win then fine but it seems too defensive minded to me. Our possession stats don’t look great.

Whilst Sunderland hadn’t created clear cut chances in the first thirty odd minutes the warning signs were there with several quick counter attacks which had us really stretched, On one occasion Hutchinson did well to chase back and concede a corner, TMac put in a couple of last ditch challenges. It came as no surprise when they scored.

Agree their sub made a positive difference for them which was ironic given Simms was their reserve team striker taking the place of their first choice, Without both their first choice strikers they posed a greater threat.

[Royal Rother]

Started off like we were the away team - pressed back into our own half and then they just picked us off, then never recovered.

Tom Ince was at one point utterly frustrated with the team as he seemed to be the only one within 30 yards of their goal during one of our two 'attacks'. Utterly baffling performance.

Indeed.

I wish Sky had done a repeat interview with Tince and Joao after the game.

I think that might have been quite revealing.

[Snowflake Royal]

It is a good question from CR although I don’t understand the comment that Sunderland are a L1 side. They are a decent Championship side.

Against Blackburn we closed them down constantly and it worked. Yet after a ten day break the players were so lethargic last night. Is it purely motivational? Did Ince give them such a rocket after Rotherham that they went out to then prove a point v Blackburn?

I suspect Ince looked at Sunderland as a similar team to ‘Boro where we sat back and let them have the ball and aim to hit them on the break . Blackburn , we set traps high up the pitch and they fell into them .

Ince clearly expected Sunderland to play with 3 at the back and tried to relay to the players about 10 minutes in that they were actually playing 4-2-3-1. But let’s be honest up for 40 mins it was a game where we were dire but they never looked like scoring . Then at the moment we changed formation , they lost their only striker and suddenly developed a cutting edge . Game over in about 3 minutes .

I keep hearing people talk about playing on the “front foot” but never know what this means. Again with Blackburn we tried to win the ball back high up the pitch but in pretty much every other game , including the wins , we’ve sat back with the intention of hitting sides on the break . By definition I’d say that’s not playing on the front foot .

Bottom line of course is it’s all moot when you can’t string 2-3 passes together all game and don’t run with the opposition’s attackers.

Can’t escape the feeling that despite all the talk of an improved attitude and “ having our club back” we still fundamentally fall into the same bad habits and have ridden our luck a little to get 5 wins under our belt .

The good news is that Ince seems well aware of this and knows exactly where this squad stands in terms of realistic expectations .

We want to see more like Blackburn, not more like Middlesbrough that's why.

Results like Middlesbrough aren't sustainable longer term. It's very very unlikely to keep getting 1-0 wins over a season with under 40% possession and the game mostly being played in your half.

[Hound]

It is a good question from CR although I don’t understand the comment that Sunderland are a L1 side. They are a decent Championship side.

Against Blackburn we closed them down constantly and it worked. Yet after a ten day break the players were so lethargic last night. Is it purely motivational? Did Ince give them such a rocket after Rotherham that they went out to then prove a point v Blackburn?

I suspect Ince looked at Sunderland as a similar team to ‘Boro where we sat back and let them have the ball and aim to hit them on the break . Blackburn , we set traps high up the pitch and they fell into them .

Ince clearly expected Sunderland to play with 3 at the back and tried to relay to the players about 10 minutes in that they were actually playing 4-2-3-1. But let’s be honest up for 40 mins it was a game where we were dire but they never looked like scoring . Then at the moment we changed formation , they lost their only striker and suddenly developed a cutting edge . Game over in about 3 minutes .

I keep hearing people talk about playing on the “front foot” but never know what this means. Again with Blackburn we tried to win the ball back high up the pitch but in pretty much every other game , including the wins , we’ve sat back with the intention of hitting sides on the break . By definition I’d say that’s not playing on the front foot .

Bottom line of course is it’s all moot when you can’t string 2-3 passes together all game and don’t run with the opposition’s attackers.

Can’t escape the feeling that despite all the talk of an improved attitude and “ having our club back” we still fundamentally fall into the same bad habits and have ridden our luck a little to get 5 wins under our belt .

The good news is that Ince seems well aware of this and knows exactly where this squad stands in terms of realistic expectations .

Looks like you do know what ‘playing on the front foot’ means

I guess it’s not always a conscious thing. When you can’t keep hold of the ball then you pretty much can’t do it. We did try to press from GKs etc but just did it terribly. As stated think all 3 goals came from counters or the ridiculous 3rd straight from their short GK

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Agree with a lot of what has been said, it was just a bad day at the office all around. I do think a lot of it comes from the fact we don't tend to start games too well in general really, whereas the opposition do. It would explain why we concede early in the opening 10 minutes on a number of occasions this season as well. That's one thing for me we really have to address. I know we haven't fallen behind early in games in recent times, which is an improvement, but we are still slow out of the blocks and we can give teams real impetuous.

Sunderland being a prime example, they started quickly and maintained that tempo throughout. Whereas you compare this to someone like Stoke who started well with the ball but were laboured throughout (I know we scored early against Stoke but the general pattern of play in the first 10-15 minutes was them having the ball and us relying on a few errors defensively, which probably proves more so about why a quick start is important).

I'd almost rather us try and keep hold of the ball and put the opposition under pressure early doors and then potentially look to sit in as we try and do and press for mistakes, just so we aren't literally under pressure from the minute we kick off.