Birmingham away...The facts

[OLLIE KEARNS]

Very good post Ollie.
What I find disappointing sometimes on here is that so many posters get pissed at a game and haven't the faintest idea of what is going on-see the dreadful contributions on the Birmingham "Back from the game" thread where it was all about stewards and our fans trying to suss who was there and what was going on in the entertainment area.
You have put much better than I ever could an excellent summary of a midfielder's role.
In the "Back from the game " thread I put forward some stats about Harper/Hunt for that game which may be more relevant than any comparison with Doyle but Cisse wasn't included by the bookie so I couldn't make comparisons between Cisse and Harper.
BTW there are obviously too many clogging ex-full-backs and greedy ex-strikers on here who do not appreciate the artistry and awareness of the midfielder's job.

Thanks BR2. I vaguely remember the artistry and awareness bit but what I mostly recall is lots of bloddy running It will be interesting to see if posters in this debate watch Harper carefully on Saturday and perhaps come back with a different point of view.

[bcubed]

Very good post Ollie.
What I find disappointing sometimes on here is that so many posters get pissed at a game and haven't the faintest idea of what is going on-see the dreadful contributions on the Birmingham "Back from the game" thread where it was all about stewards and our fans trying to suss who was there and what was going on in the entertainment area.
You have put much better than I ever could an excellent summary of a midfielder's role.
In the "Back from the game " thread I put forward some stats about Harper/Hunt for that game which may be more relevant than any comparison with Doyle but Cisse wasn't included by the bookie so I couldn't make comparisons between Cisse and Harper.
BTW there are obviously too many clogging ex-full-backs and greedy ex-strikers on here who do not appreciate the artistry and awareness of the midfielder's job.

Thanks BR2. I vaguely remember the artistry and awareness bit but what I mostly recall is lots of bloddy running It will be interesting to see if posters in this debate watch Harper carefully on Saturday and perhaps come back with a different point of view.

Now I was with you all the way on your initial post, which was excellent

But if you expect any nobbers to watch the game without their preconceived notions of each player and of course of said Mr H, you are sadly mistaken. Good effort anyway

[OLLIE KEARNS]

Very good post Ollie.
What I find disappointing sometimes on here is that so many posters get pissed at a game and haven't the faintest idea of what is going on-see the dreadful contributions on the Birmingham "Back from the game" thread where it was all about stewards and our fans trying to suss who was there and what was going on in the entertainment area.


Thanks BR2. I vaguely remember the artistry and awareness bit but what I mostly recall is lots of bloddy running It will be interesting to see if posters in this debate watch Harper carefully on Saturday and perhaps come back with a different point of view.

Now I was with you all the way on your initial post, which was excellent

But if you expect any nobbers to watch the game without their preconceived notions of each player and of course of said Mr H, you are sadly mistaken. Good effort anyway

Ahh ! Good point. I live in hope however !

[Thomas L'Heureux]

Not really 'spot on'

I didnt waste 90 minutes of my time as my intention was to enjoy the match in peace rather than with my 4 kids jumping all over me on a Saturday lunchtime. I didnt go out with the sole intention of proving anyone right or wrong, it just struck me after about 5 minutes that Harps was playing better than Cisse (something I must admit I didnt think happened on Saturday either).

Then why did you write:

I amfed up with people saying x y and z are crap, gave the ball away, made no contribution or sold him a hospital ball with no facts to back things up. So I watched the game again this evening and for all those idiots out there, mainly Harper haters, these are the facts.

?

This thread has sort of lost sight in my opinion. I'm not going to take issue with anything that Ollie has said, because he's defined the central midfield role well, but in all honesty, that was never the point of the thread in the first place.

The intention initially was to 'shut up' all the 'Harper-haters' with a collection of fantastic statistics. My argument was that statistics mean nothing, and I went a certain degree to back that up using my analogy about the one-twos with the goalkeeper. As far as I've read, not one poster since has tackled my points with any degree of persuasion, so I'm going to stick to what I wrote originally.

Ollie's right, I'm a central midfielder myself (although have been for only a handful of years compared to his impressive 15), there is more to playing the role effectively than meets the eye. As I said before, I am not a Harper-hater, I think his energy levels are phenomenal and in past seasons I've always rated his contribution. One thing that has got my back up is that he shirks tackles (before anyone starts, I know there is more to defending that hurling yourself into a slide tackle, but it's always nice to see the players you support showing a bit of battle and bottle) but he's always going to be a player that avoids the physical side of the game.

I think one poster has made an interesting point, one that I didn't consider before. Harper is captain this season, and this might be one of the reasons why he's playing differently (in my eyes anyway). He's no longer a player who breaks beyond the forwards to score goals, he's no longer a player who spreads the play with a cross-field pass. Maybe this is because he sees his own role in the team as one with a lot more maturity now. Maybe he now sees his position to be one that weaves everyone together, lets them play their own game, whilst he's on hand to keep things organised and not stray from his outpost in the middle of the park.

[Hoop Blah]

Thomas...I totally agree that stats are very rarely useful in comparing footballing contributions, however, I think the main reason nobody has argued your points are that the ones you made aren't really relevant to the dicsussion.

Your right about meaningless stats, but these aren't really meaningless as comparing the two central midfielders contrinutions on the ball over a time when quite a few people have said one was excellent and one was useless is quite significant.

Your point about comparing Doyle and Messi with Harper doesn't really stand as the original point was about Cisse and Harper, Doyle was more of an aside from the way I read it.

I started doing a similar thing when I watched the game back on Sunday evening after reading some of the tripe on here, but I got bored and stopped by half time. What I did notice was that, unsurprisingly to me as I've played in the middle of the park a bit in the past, both Cisse andf Harper went for long spells without touching the ball. Harper very rarely gave the ball away but also didn't make many tackles. Again that didn't surprise me much either, what did surprise me a litte was that he attempted a lot more forward and attacking passes than perhaps I expected and the times he did lose us possession it was either in a challenge for the ball or where he played a percentage ball for one of the Hunts, Long or Doyle to chase. That's again an expected part of the way we play.

I think the original point was very valid. It's easy to get carried away when your watching a game live when you have a vested and emotional interest in the game. Watching it back when you know the result and spend a bit more time paying attention to the details is quite eye opening at times and I think it's a shame that people on here, and at the ground, over look a lot of the good work done by the likes of Harper.

I still think he could do with putting a few more tackles in at times mind!

[Ian Royal]

Surely the point of these "stats" was that those posters who don't rate Harper, use the same old tired arguments against him all the time without any real evidence.

Londinium watches a game making note of some of the specific criticisms of Harper in mind and shows that they aren't really valid.

Complaints against Harper I've seen recently include: He never passes forward and he gives the ball away loads.

Now these have clearly been shown to not be the case.

T L'H has a point that the stats in themselves are relatively meaningless and that sideways passing won't score you goals.

But the "stats" were only there (IMO) to refute spurious claims by the likes of Royalee.

I'd also argue that sideways passes can be very useful as you can work the ball and retain possession until a good opportunity for an attacking pass or run can be made. I've seen Harper begin a goalscoring attack on many occasions with good balls over the top or into the channels. His meat and drink is keeping the ball moving, it's his job, but that doesn't mean he won't get an attack moving if a good chance is there.

I think OK has some spot on analysis, it's just a shame so many people seem to find it difficult to even consider looking at a game objectively to try to notice the same stuff.

[SteveRoyal]

I'm beginning to change my view on Harper - Coppell must see something in him to name him captain.
These stats show that he's reliable, and over the past few matches Harper has been fairly decent.

All I'll say to Harper-Haters: You'll miss him when he's gone.

[Royalee]

They said that about Hughes...

I don't know why I bother, it's bad enough arguing with idiots who can count, let alone ones who can't.

[Ian Royal]

They said that about Hughes...

I don't know why I bother, it's bad enough arguing with idiots who can count, let alone ones who can't.

Nor do we. And we wish you wouldn't.

[mg1976royal]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.

IMO a very good post.

I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.

A very informative post I need to be convienced based on this seasons performances but as I will be at the games on Friday and Sunday will try and keep a closer eye on his overall contribution.

[londinium]

I amfed up with people saying x y and z are crap, gave the ball away, made no contribution or sold him a hospital ball with no facts to back things up. So I watched the game again this evening and for all those idiots out there, mainly Harper haters, these are the facts.

Harper misplaced passes throughout the game 3
Cisse '' '' 3
Doyle '' '' 4

Harper tackled 0
Cisse tackled 3
Doyle tackled 3


Haper fouls conceded 2
Cisse fouls conceded 4
Doyle fouls conceded 1

Peoples impression on the game was that Cisse was immense and that Harper was between ok and shite.

First half Cisse touched the ball 5 times of which twice he game the ball away and once he was tackled
Harper touched the ball 10 times gave the ball away twice too but was not tackled at all.

As for the ball played from Harper to Cisse in the second half that led to the Brum goal, it certianly wasnt a hospital ball Cisse received it easily, shrugged off the first challange with ease and then dithered with it for an age before being tackled/fouled.

As a foot note its strange how you see the game after watching it a second time as I thought Long was fairly poor Saturday and in fact he ran his socks off held the ball up well and got into some great positions.

You watched the game twice and still can't count? Jesus. Did you do maths at school?

Have I miscounted...please do tell me where, or do you just 'reckon' I have because it suits you?

[Franchise FC]

Interesting, if fairly meaningless stats.

I watched the game on the TV and specifically monitored Harper. I didn't play CM in any capacity in my playing days (left back - in the dressing room normally!) and agree that Harper did/does cover a lot of ground. Sometimes it's difficult to see exactly what he's up to and I think that's the nub of the issue. Players like Gerrard/Lampard/Fabrigas not only cover an immense area of field, marshall their team but also act as the hub through which the team can play. This means they naturally get more of the ball/make more passes and score more goals. Harps, clearly isn't that type of player.

This, BTW, does not mean I don't think Harps' contribution is rubbish because he's not Gerrard/Fabrigas/Lampard!

sorry to go off on a tangent, but is Matejovsky our Gerrard/Fabregas/Lampard equivalent? I remember thinking he might be when watching him play for the Czech team, but then I've never ever played football let alone been a CM.

Sorry Sarah, but if he was we wouldn't have got close to signing him.

[Ian Royal]

you missed equivalent. The answer is still no though, because we aren't shoite without him. Also he's not nearly energetic and mobile enough to be a Chump version of those players.

[Arch]

Can we stop all this preposterous debating and get back to slagging people off?

[Drew_3]

I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.

spot on, I have always liked Harps and have defended him many times on here. I have always known he was a good player but have never been able to explain why to anyone else i will now refer to this when ever faced again with the question what does Harper bring to the team!