Mcd says we haven't got any cash....

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

I love all this "some clubs are in financial trouble therefore the soul of football is corrupt and I'm not participating in it anymore" stuff

Do you stop buying cars, using a bank and going on holiday because a few of those business that have been run badly collapse?

Isn't debt a part of business? Didn't Ford borrow $26bn to restructure their whole business?

As long as clubs pay their bills what's the problem? I can't believe everyone getting so work up over Cardiff and Pompey. Pompey got relegated and lost all their player so have had certainly paid some degree of their dues. Cardiff are gambling and we wait to see if it pays off. Good luck to them. If it doesn't then we can all laugh and say "i told you so". I'm sure Motherwell will get their money soon enough. It was just a nice PR opportunity to jump on the back of the Bellamy story. Standard stuff.

Well that's fair enough. But I'm not sure you have set the stall out on the same playing field.

As others have pointed out, it's the fact they are bending the rules that's the issue. Do you really think that you'd get away without paying your tax for months on end, at your own discretion? No? Me neither. It's this total imbalance that sticks in my throat, and that just when you think something might be done or one club will be made an example of for the greater good, they get away with it and it's back to normal.

And no, I don't think Portsmouth have paid their dues. They started this season on an equal footing to us, which cannot be right, even more so given that while charities and St John ambulance are waiting for their money, Utaka is getting his £50k a week in full. The funny thing with that is even if they did pay the tax, most of his salary would be exempt thanks to the ludicrous "image rights" system.

For me, too many lines have been crossed in the game recently that makes the game ethically and morally (and financially) bankrupt. I don't live by those rules in my own life, so I don't see why I should support an industry that does.

[RoyalBlue]

To be fair, this thread has meandered away from the original discussion, where some of us feel that having a central defence that could prove a liability to the team, and not addressing it because of budgetary constraints, could, in time, prove to be the mother of false economies should the club suffer relegation.
The discussion has broadened out into football finances generally, but to pick up on your comments...

I love all this "some clubs are in financial trouble therefore the soul of football is corrupt and I'm not participating in it anymore" stuff
Do you stop buying cars, using a bank and going on holiday because a few of those business that have been run badly collapse?
Isn't debt a part of business? Didn't Ford borrow $26bn to restructure their whole business?
Borrowing to restucture, rebuild a stadium is one thing, paying unsustainable wages to stellar footballers, then short changing all the other creditors when the money runs out is quite something else.
As long as clubs pay their bills what's the problem? Portsmouth haven'tI can't believe everyone getting so work up over Cardiff and Pompey. Pompey got relegated and lost all their player so have had certainly paid some degree of their dues. Cardiff are gambling and we wait to see if it pays off. Good luck to them. If it doesn't then we can all laugh and say "i told you so". I'm sure Motherwell will get their money soon enough. It was just a nice PR opportunity to jump on the back of the Bellamy story. Standard stuff.

Portsmouth, like any other city in the UK, has areas of social deprivation. I've no doubt that Pompey trawl around their local schools, encouraging those kids to support their local team, whilst at the same time, pay players via offshore companies, so that those players can circumnavigate their tax liabilities, depriving those very schools of money. Where is the social conscience?
Clubs like Pompey may not be financially bankrupt, but they certainly are, morally.

Anyone happen to know whether we pay any of our players in 'tax efficient' ways such as offshore companies?

And before anyone suggests that JM would not sanction such procedures, don't forget that he took a long and very tax efficient 'holiday'. Strange really, avoid paying tax in that manner (legal though it is) and then get honoured, maybe at least partly due to funding things like academies that might overwise be funded by tax!

[Z175]

The problem with tax efficient remuneration is that you need to "disguise it. This can mean it is not deductible for corporation tax. Therefore any normal business wouldn't bother. As football clubs are run at a huge loss they often pay no corporation tax so therefore the wages add back doesn't hurt. This issue ended up with a judgement in favour of HMRC v Arsenal and led to the gunners forking over some 20m in corporate tax that they had claimed wasn't wages to their players!

As RFC made profits in the premierleague years (which paid back previous losses) it would be unlikely that they did this.

Perhaps we should start - Bellamy anyone?

[Royal Lady]

One day, probably in our lifetime, a number of these "big" clubs will go under - if that is the case, I'd rather know that we were still in a football league (whatever division it might be) and that we're there on our own merit, whether that means League 2 year in, year out, because we just don't have the money or the attraction for better players. Better, imo, to still have a club to be proud of, than one that we know is cheating the system or not there one day at all.

[brendywendy]

amen to that sister

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

But it will never be a big club that goes under, it will always be the likes of Pompy and Cardiff, and for the very reasons said on here.

We have a budget, and that budget, I would assume, is not to lose money at the years end, IMHO that has to be the best way to operate. JM must be delighted that through the last few seasons he has not had to put any more money into the club.

[Royal Lady]

I'd have said Pompey and Cardiff were "bigger" than us personally.

[Barney]

I am not suggesting who is the 'bigger' club, but a few stats below on recent years average LEAGUE crowds...

Reading
---------
2009/2010 - 17495
2008/2009 - 19942
2007/2008 - 23585
2006/2007 - 23829
2005/2006 - 20207
2004/2005 - 17169

Portsmouth
---------
2009/2010 - 18249
2008/2009 - 19830
2007/2008 - 19914
2006/2007 - 19862
2005/2006 - 19840
2004/2005 - 20072

Cardiff
---------
2009/2010 - 20717
2008/2009 - 18044
2007/2008 - 13939
2006/2007 - 15219
2005/2006 - 11720
2004/2005 - 12976

So over the last 6 years, Reading have a higher average home league gate than either Portsmouth or Cardiff.

I'll get my coat.

[Stranded]

Over the past 6 years, Reading have had a bigger stadium than the other two.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

I would put all 3 clubs at the same size personally

[brendywendy]

in terms of time in top flight, trophies won, they are both bigger aint they?


in terms of gates since the start of football id guess that they are much bigger

[Still Hate Futcher!]

in terms of time in top flight, trophies won, they are both bigger aint they?


in terms of gates since the start of football id guess that they are much bigger

I'd say that's fair enough. I quite fancy us to become a bigger club in the future though as we've a steadily rising fanbase and are better placed financially.

It's wrong that 2 clubs with such dreadful finances still have players we couldn't dream of signing but despite recent court victories I'm still hopeful they'll get what's coming.

[RoyalBlue]

in terms of time in top flight, trophies won, they are both bigger aint they?


in terms of gates since the start of football id guess that they are much bigger

History means bugger all in that respect. Afterall, I doubt they've kept hold of that gate money from seasons' past. There is only one JM!

in terms of time in top flight, trophies won, they are both bigger aint they?


in terms of gates since the start of football id guess that they are much bigger

I'd say that's fair enough. I quite fancy us to become a bigger club in the future though as we've a steadily rising fanbase and are better placed financially.

It's wrong that 2 clubs with such dreadful finances still have players we couldn't dream of signing but despite recent court victories I'm still hopeful they'll get what's coming.

Presumably JM is from the same school of thought and I suspect you will both be disappointed. Also, a question mark against that steadily rising fanbase if Madejski keeps talking big ambition but completely failing to match that talk with the sort of spending power and playing budgets required.

[fester_royal]

on the os today is yet another shot of the spin about the lack of funds!

its repeated on a daily basis now... do they not think we get it?

who writes the os? jm himself??

STOP SENDING BRIAN OUT TO REPEAT IT... WE UNDERSTAND THE CLUB HAS NO MONEY!!!

[Sir Dodger Royal]

Donut is just a yes man puppet having his strings pulled. His purple patch is over and we will all witness the end in the coming months.

Serves them bloody right. No idea and no ambition.

Soon to drop like a stoneeeeeeeeeeee

Real Facts in the Real World.

[under the tin]

on the os today is yet another shot of the spin about the lack of funds!

its repeated on a daily basis now... do they not think we get it?

who writes the os? jm himself??

STOP SENDING BRIAN OUT TO REPEAT IT... WE UNDERSTAND THE CLUB HAS NO MONEY!!!

That's because we are being softened up for a departure, mate.

I can even predict the soundbites:
"for the greater good of the team as a whole"
"did not want to stand in the way of an ambitious footballer"
"secures the immediate future of the club"
"reluctant sale, but it frees up funds that will make us stronger, overall"

[RoyalBlue]

I understand that Cardiff wont have to pay Bellamys wages - Man City are loaning him to Cardiff for no layout (to maintain match fitness ) and they will continue to pay his c£90k a week wages....

Sounds too good to be true really but there we go !

The un says that Cardiff are picking up HALF his wages, that's right £45k per week.

Great. Not cheating at all then.

No, playing just within the rules, whereas Madejski wants to work on a completely different basis yet amazingly still seems to think we can compete effectively at this level in doing so! Deluded old ...........

[brendywendy]

on the os today is yet another shot of the spin about the lack of funds!

its repeated on a daily basis now... do they not think we get it?

who writes the os? jm himself??

STOP SENDING BRIAN OUT TO REPEAT IT... WE UNDERSTAND THE CLUB HAS NO MONEY!!!

That's because we are being softened up for a departure, mate.

I can even predict the soundbites:
"for the greater good of the team as a whole"
"did not want to stand in the way of an ambitious footballer"
"secures the immediate future of the club"
"reluctant sale, but it frees up funds that will make us stronger, overall"

tbf at a push we could lose one of our forward assets and still be competitive, we are a bit heavy in that department
and the cash, if used for a defender and anything else will be improving the squad, and secure the imediate future of the club

[Elm Park Old Boy]

That's because we are being softened up for a departure, mate.

I can even predict the soundbites:
"for the greater good of the team as a whole"
"did not want to stand in the way of an ambitious footballer"
"secures the immediate future of the club"
"reluctant sale, but it frees up funds that will make us stronger, overall"

All of which may be true of course....

[rob the royal]

Royal Blue:

Hugo Boss wrote:LOL @ People thinking JM has got pots of money sat at home just waiting to be spent.

LOL @ People who think he is of any use to us then. If we just want some business expertise to run the club and come out with soundbites about promotion to the PL, we could hire some sodding consultants!

Any anyway, it's probably more of a question of providing security against loans rather than splashing out hard cash.

To be honest he's not going anywhere unless he sells - and this is what he's preparing for - whether he COULD borrow the money or not is besides the point because he wouldn't want to even if he could. So long as he thinks we can stay in the Championship he'll cut as many costs as possible. Why throw money into a black hole when you're trying to sell it - because that is essentially what a football club is - a black hole - it sucks money in and it disappears to players and agents and so on.

Whether you agree with his past decisions or not or whether you think he could have speculated a bit more when we reached the Premiership makes no odds now. We are what we are - a small selling club - the only up side (as others have mentioned) is we have a possible way to generate new talent in the Academy.

He's always said he is a businessman - this is why I've been prepared for us ending up like this ever since we came down and the recession kicked in.