Matt Mills

[rob the royal]

Getting enough top class officials is an ongoing problem, and refs have always been criticised / blamed and will always get this. They make mistakes, they get things wrong, they have bad days. But what is your great solution ?

The School for Officiating Excellence... a university just for referees and linesmen where people actually just go and spend a couple of years of their life to get a degree in refereeing by officiating a mixture of real life games and virtual games and situations in a simulator, where if they get the decision wrong they get electrocuted or Craig Bellamy beats you up with a golf club.

Or a Centre for Refereeing Development - basically a place where genetically engineered humans will be created with super senses and eyes in the back of their heads... the X-Refs...

Meanwhile, in the real world I don't loathe Pearce, I just don't think that he's as good as they made out he was going to be.

[Sun Tzu]

But what is your great solution ?

Video replays.

(before you hit reply - I meant that with a )

Bait not taken !

And I realise you hadn't attached a hook there anyway !!

[loyalroyal4life]

cant wait to see pearce starting on saturday

Now Kebe can't be criticised, has everyone switched their irrational loathing to Pearce?

I am actually one of the few who never criticised Kebe, have never liked Pearce just think he really does bring us down in terms of being more vulnerable at the back!!

[specialjon]

I think this gives pearce the chance to prove himself at this level or not. As a team we're flying at the moment, where as when he was in the team before we where shocking. So Alex Pearce this is your chance you could have 6 matches in the heart of our defence to get yourself a starting position next to mills next season. Or on the offer hand you could prove yourself to be not up to the task and sold in the summer... Either will do, as we're pretty much safe now.

[Woodcote Royal]

Just remember this decision the next time referees ask for the respect they believe should be theirs by devine right.

You need to find out what the 'Respect' campaign is actually about !

For Mills to miss 7 games this season for 2 such minor misdemeanors is simply pathetic and, remember, we are just one of 92 clubs being subjected to far too many cr@p officials week in week out.

And of course there are hundreds of better officials being kept away from the top ! Again you need to understand what the Respect campaign is about. There are indeed hundreds (thousands) of officials who never make it anywhere near the PL because they simply won;t take the abuse that is handed out to them every week. Try taking the refs course and doing a few games and see what it's like.

Worse still, their incompetence is denied proper scutiny thanks to inhouse accessors being more interested in protecting their good name than raising standards by removing those who are simply not good enough, not to mention the threat of punishment being dished out to any manager who criticizes them...............................didn't Alex Fergusion get a touch line ban for daring to suggest that an official was unfit
.

Ferguson was totally out of order. If you believe that he was commenting on the physical fitness then he was simply wrong as the PL refs all have regular and tough fitness tests. Of course he wasn't commenting on that at all. Can I suggest Fergie is unfit to be a manager, given the comments he has made over the years about officials and opponents ?

Your 'inhouse assessors comment is interesting. Most of the people who judge the performance of officials are far from 'in house'. They are club managers. The assessors appointed by the league are mostly former refs, pretty well qualified to look at whether referees are performing badly or not. It would be interesting to know who you think would have a more objective view. Ex pros ? (based on their comments on TV they would come up with some bizarre reports) Former managers (dismissed of course for incompetance and unable to get jobs).

Getting enough top class officials is an ongoing problem, and refs have always been criticised / blamed and will always get this. They make mistakes, they get things wrong, they have bad days. But what is your great solution ?

I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what the respect campaign is about.

It's a one way street in which officials demand respect regardless of whether their performance warrants it and whilst any shortcomings found by assessors are rarely made public, with any managers who criticize them regularly fined and, therefore, effectively gagged.

Most rational fans agree that officials should command respect on the pitch regardless of errors they make during a match . However, in return, their performances should be subjected to fair AND OPEN scrutiny on a post match basis and any punishments handed out as a result of serious errors of judgement on their part (and any reasonable person would accept that some are bound to occur) are rescinded.

If a manager wishes to question the fitness of an official he should have a perfect right to do so just as anyone whose job carries responsibility should expect to be open to scrutiny by those who are, directly or indirectly, paying for their services and can be greatly effected by any errors they make............................that's the real world and one our officials need to inhabit if they wish to enjoy the respect they currently demand whilst offering little in return.

This should mean that laughable errors like failing to give a foul throw in the run up to West Broms equaliser would not just be brushed under the carpet never to be mentioned again.

Respect is a TWO WAY street.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

You just have to watch an Academy game to see how well the respect campaign has gone.

If you've got 15 yr olds telling the ref to fcuk off.

Have always wondered what you actually have to say to a ref to get sent off for foul language...

[Sun Tzu]

I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what the respect campaign is about..

I respectfully suggest you do.... as the rest of your post ably demonstrates.

It's a one way street in which officials demand respect regardless of whether their performance warrants it and whilst any shortcomings found by assessors are rarely made public, with any managers who criticize them regularly fined and, therefore, effectively gagged.

Respect is absolutely NOT a one way street. Again, you may wish to do some research.

And managers have a very clear way of expressing concerns. It is when they chose to do it to the press rather than through the proper process that the problems arise. Especially when they are wrong. A post match rant about a single decision helps no one. Officials are every bit as thorough in the analysis of their performance as managers and believe me when they do make a mistake they agonise over it. Of course many of what managers like to call 'errors' are nothing of the sort, refs do make mistakes but managers also take one eyed views on incidents they haven;t seen from the same angle as the referee and haven;t had the time to think over calmly.

If a manager wishes to question the fitness of an official he should have a perfect right to do so .

Not in th way Ferguson did. His was a deliberate, personal, offensive and calculated attack on the competance (not physical fitness) of a senior referee.

that's the real world and one our officials need to inhabit if they wish to enjoy the respect they currently demand whilst offering little in return.

That is sheer wilful ignorance on your part.

This should mean that laughable errors like failing to give a foul throw in the run up to West Broms equaliser would not just be brushed under the carpet never to be mentioned again.

Your idea that every mistake should involve punishment is a bizarre one. You clearly have no knowledge of the real world, providing of feedback or motivation techniques if you think the answer is to look at the performance of individuals,pick out errors and issue punishments. The level of errors amongst officials is low, although one error is too high.However it is simply preposterous to suggest that punishment is the answer ! You'll be punishing players who misplace passes and managers who make the wrong substitutions next ! Referees make errors of judgement, they don;t deliberately get things wrong. Managers deliberately put pressure on officials, players deliberately cheat. Can you see the difference ?

Respect is a TWO WAY street.

No, it's actually about a 5 way street as it discusses the responsibilities of referees, officials, players, spectators and others in ensuring the game is run with due RESPECT shown to all involved. I'd advise you reading up about it and avoiding making so many grossly inaccurate assertions.

[Sun Tzu]

You just have to watch an Academy game to see how well the respect campaign has gone.

If you've got 15 yr olds telling the ref to fcuk off.

Have always wondered what you actually have to say to a ref to get sent off for foul language...

I'd agree.

It's been pretty badly implemented and as an official at a local club it's caused me loads of grief because at local level the people implementing it frankly don;t have a clue.
What is addressing is a serious problem, it's goals are worthy but there is too much box ticking and too many people failing to understand what are quite simple ideas.

[SpaceCruiser]

ST - can you answer my question: Why are there so few referees who are so willingly to admit in public that they made a mistake? And why do some insist that they were right, even in the face of evidence that they were wrong?

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

You just have to watch an Academy game to see how well the respect campaign has gone.

If you've got 15 yr olds telling the ref to fcuk off.

Have always wondered what you actually have to say to a ref to get sent off for foul language...

I'd agree.

It's been pretty badly implemented and as an official at a local club it's caused me loads of grief because at local level the people implementing it frankly don;t have a clue.
What is addressing is a serious problem, it's goals are worthy but there is too much box ticking and too many people failing to understand what are quite simple ideas.

Pro footballers acting like massive, massive cnuts when on the pitch don't help either.

I don't know why anyone would bother...

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

ST - can you answer my question: Why are there so few referees who are so willingly to admit in public that they made a mistake? And why do some insist that they were right, even in the face of evidence that they were wrong?

Like managers and players?

[Sun Tzu]

I don't know why anyone would bother...

Because it can actually be a lot of fun ! I don;t referee regularly these days but most games I do are great. I'm too old to play but I can still take part in the sport and usually have a laugh and get on well with theplayers / managers etc.

When it goes bad it can be horrible but actually in the years I've reffed I've probably had two really bad experiences.

[Sun Tzu]

ST - can you answer my question: Why are there so few referees who are so willingly to admit in public that they made a mistake? And why do some insist that they were right, even in the face of evidence that they were wrong?

No.

I suspect they are told not to because it is a bit pointless. They wouldn;t get shown any respect if they said they were wrong on the TV, it would just get thrown back in their faces every week.

And refs do admit to errors. You hear stories of them calling managers and the comment from the manager is they don;t want apologies they want right decisions !

You may also confuse referees sticking by the decision they made in real time with what multiple TV replays in slow mo and from different angles suggests may be the case. You cannot second guess a decision made during a game. It's a whole different ball game (to excuse the pun). That doesn;t mean officials shouldn;t look and learn, but the 'blame' culture is rather pointless and I'd have more respect for the critics if some of them went out and refereed themselves....

[RoyalBlue]

And of course there are hundreds of better officials being kept away from the top ! Again you need to understand what the Respect campaign is about. There are indeed hundreds (thousands) of officials who never make it anywhere near the PL because they simply won;t take the abuse that is handed out to them every week. Try taking the refs course and doing a few games and see what it's like.

Funnily enough my son has done just that and surprisingly gets very little abuse. Maybe it's because he also still plays football at a pretty high standard himself (you would call it park football but there are paying spectators!) and perhaps understands the players and the game a bit better for that.

It's been said that the standards of refereeing would increase if more ex players were to become refs. Trouble is you have to be a good communicator and, I believe, reasonably bright. That probably rules quite a few players out! Money might well be another issue. How much does a ref, who can make or ruin a game get compared to the players?!

I once came across a ref from Aus who was built like the proverbial sh*thouse. When he was refereeing games for 16/17 year olds he used to have a chat with each team before the game. Part of this chat went something along the lines of 'If I get any trouble from any of you, with your parents' permission I will take you behind those trees over there and beat the f*cking sh*t out of you'! That always got a laugh from the players and I never, ever saw him have any problems handling a game. On one occasion I was managing a team when this guy got a big decision wrong against us. I gave him a bit of stick at the time and when the game finished he walked over to me. I feared the worse but the guy actually apologised, said that he had realised that he had made a mistake and explained how it had happened. We shook hands and I genuinely had no hard feelings towards him, even though his decision had deprived us of a win. That is how to earn respect big time.

Another time I heard a ref turn to a player who was giving him stick over a decision and say 'next time you make a mistake with a pass or miss an easy chance, how will you feel if I'm right in your ear telling you that you are sh*t?' He got no further stick from any of the players for the rest of the game!

ST - can you answer my question: Why are there so few referees who are so willingly to admit in public that they made a mistake? And why do some insist that they were right, even in the face of evidence that they were wrong?

No.

I suspect they are told not to because it is a bit pointless. They wouldn;t get shown any respect if they said they were wrong on the TV, it would just get thrown back in their faces every week.

.

I see to remember that ref who got his arse in the way during one of our games and cost us dear actually had the guts to appear on tv straight after, apologising and saying how he was embarrassed by what had happened. IIRC by doing so he actually came out of that well , even amongst our support!

[Woodcote Royal]

I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what the respect campaign is about..

I respectfully suggest you do.... as the rest of your post ably demonstrates.

It's a one way street in which officials demand respect regardless of whether their performance warrants it and whilst any shortcomings found by assessors are rarely made public, with any managers who criticize them regularly fined and, therefore, effectively gagged.

Respect is absolutely NOT a one way street. Again, you may wish to do some research.

And managers have a very clear way of expressing concerns. It is when they chose to do it to the press rather than through the proper process that the problems arise. Especially when they are wrong. A post match rant about a single decision helps no one. Officials are every bit as thorough in the analysis of their performance as managers and believe me when they do make a mistake they agonise over it. Of course many of what managers like to call 'errors' are nothing of the sort, refs do make mistakes but managers also take one eyed views on incidents they haven;t seen from the same angle as the referee and haven;t had the time to think over calmly.

If a manager wishes to question the fitness of an official he should have a perfect right to do so .

Not in th way Ferguson did. His was a deliberate, personal, offensive and calculated attack on the competance (not physical fitness) of a senior referee.

that's the real world and one our officials need to inhabit if they wish to enjoy the respect they currently demand whilst offering little in return.

That is sheer wilful ignorance on your part.

This should mean that laughable errors like failing to give a foul throw in the run up to West Broms equaliser would not just be brushed under the carpet never to be mentioned again.

Your idea that every mistake should involve punishment is a bizarre one. You clearly have no knowledge of the real world, providing of feedback or motivation techniques if you think the answer is to look at the performance of individuals,pick out errors and issue punishments. The level of errors amongst officials is low, although one error is too high.However it is simply preposterous to suggest that punishment is the answer ! You'll be punishing players who misplace passes and managers who make the wrong substitutions next ! Referees make errors of judgement, they don;t deliberately get things wrong. Managers deliberately put pressure on officials, players deliberately cheat. Can you see the difference ?

Respect is a TWO WAY street.

No, it's actually about a 5 way street as it discusses the responsibilities of referees, officials, players, spectators and others in ensuring the game is run with due RESPECT shown to all involved. I'd advise you reading up about it and avoiding making so many grossly inaccurate assertions.

So anyone can say, more or less, what they like about Ferguson in the press but he gets fined for having the temerity to suggest that one of the officials running one of his matches appeared to be lacking in fitness.........................if that's not a one way street I don't know what is.

I DO NOT expect every error to be punished but I DO expect fair AND OPEN accountability in the same way that any professional would expect of their performance and no amount of patronising drivel from apologists such as your self will change that.

I DO NOT expect Mats Mills to be serving a four match ban for an offence that was clearly no worse than a yellow card and this shows, for the countless time, that not only do we have far too many poor officials in the game but that largely covert methods of assessing their ability and handling of appeals is either, incompetent, unfair, or biased in the favour of officials and possibly a case of all three.

My research has been carried whilst watching hundreds of matches over several decades.

Officials will not enjoy the respect they crave until they are are prepared to offer the same in return.

[Woodcote Royal]

You just have to watch an Academy game to see how well the respect campaign has gone.

If you've got 15 yr olds telling the ref to fcuk off.

Have always wondered what you actually have to say to a ref to get sent off for foul language...

I'm not condoning this behavior in anyway but think the current lack of accountability merely serves to make matters worse.

[Sun Tzu]

So anyone can say, more or less, what they like about Ferguson in the press but he gets fined for having the temerity to suggest that one of the officials running one of his matches appeared to be lacking in fitness.........................if that's not a one way street I don't know what is.

It's a laughable perversion of any kind of arguement.

In what way is the fact that Fergie gets a bit of stick of any relevance in allowing Fergie to make unwarranted attacks on the competance of a referee ?

I DO NOT expect every error to be punished but I DO expect fair AND OPEN accountability in the same way that any professional would expect of their performance and no amount of patronising drivel from apologists such as your self will change that.

I'm sorry if you think actually knowing a bit about the subject makes me an apologist ! If you can get away from cliches maybe you could come up with something more meaningful than 'fair and open accountability'. Are you looking for every match to be followed up with a public list of decisions that the managers disagree with ? Do you understand the nature of the laws of football and the basis on which decisions are made ?

I DO NOT expect Mats Mills to be serving a four match ban for an offence that was clearly no worse than a yellow card

He's not.
He's serving a three match ban for this offence. He's serving an additional match because he's been sent off twice this season.
You are of course entitled to your opinion about the offence. I've not seen it so have no opinion on whether it was a red or not. I've expressed my thoughts on other refereeing decisions this season.

and this shows, for the countless time, that not only do we have far too many poor officials in the game

We have the best available. Where do you think you would get better ones ? Especially ones prepared to put up with the ignorance shown by many within the game regarding standrds of behaviour (and indeed the laws....)

but that largely covert methods of assessing their ability and handling of appeals is either, incompetent, unfair, or biased in the favour of officials and possibly a case of all three.

Giving that almost all businesses use 'covert' assessment of ability why should referees be treated differently ? Most staff don;t have their appraisals made public, even disciplinary hearings in industry are usual held in private and the outcomes are not made public.

Given that managers have direct input into the assessment process I'm not sure what else you want. Fans to be able to hold up marks out of 10 at the end of every game ? Phone lines open for 24 hours to record votes ?

As for appeals being 'biased in favour' of officials that shows an utter lack of understanding of the process. The officials are not 'on trial' at an appeal. They are a witness. The tribunal looks at the official's report and any evidence presented by the club and judges on that basis. They can decide the referee made an error, the referee can change his decision. They can decide there is no evidence on which to change the decision. I have attended hearings at a county level and seen how the operate (and they are far from perfect but they are NOT judging the referee)

My research has been carried whilst watching hundreds of matches over several decades..

Perhaps it's been inadequate. it's not hard to take a bit more trouble and do more than just reinforce your mistaken ideas and misconceptions.

Officials will not enjoy the respect they crave until they are are prepared to offer the same in return.

Again, you display your ignorance.

I'd have a little respect for you if you were actually prepared to practice what you preach but to simply spout ill informed nonsense , refuse to consider any counter arguements and fail to show any appreciation of what really happens is daft.

There are lots of areas that the game as a whole needs to improve on but while we still have a refusal to see more than one side of the story we're not going to get anywhere.

[Woodcote Royal]

I couldn't agree more that we will get nowhere while only one side of the argument is given prominence.

At the moment referees make mistakes that have a huge impact on the game and their apologists (other referees like you, for instance ) accuse others, like me, of ignorance for criticizing a system that consistently uses the appeal system as an extension of the respect campaign by not just upholding decisions that are clearly wrong but also punishing large numbers of clubs for merely having the brass neck to question decisions made by officials whose standards are often questionable to say the least.

I don't need to know chapter and verse of the current appeals system to know it isn't working and, frankly, I really don't give a toss about any county appeals you may have attended.

As a fan, I'm pig sick of the condescension of people like you who trip over themselves in a stampede to defend a system that consistently short changes footballers, managers and the paying public alike by refusing to over turn decisions made by an increasing numberof poor officials.

Believe it or not, the game wasn't invented for cr@p referees to eke out a comfortable living without the scutiny that would ensure they either improve or get replaced.

The primary function of any appeals system should be to correct as many wrong decisions as possible and that is clearly not the case at the moment.

[leon]

I couldn't agree more that we will get nowhere while only one side of the argument is given prominence.

At the moment referees make mistakes that have a huge impact on the game and their apologists (other referees like you, for instance ) accuse others, like me, of ignorance for criticizing a system that consistently uses the appeal system as an extension of the respect campaign by not just upholding decisions that are clearly wrong but also punishing large numbers of clubs for merely having the brass neck to question decisions made by officials whose standards are often questionable to say the least.

I don't need to know chapter and verse of the current appeals system to know it isn't working and, frankly, I really don't give a toss about any county appeals you may have attended.

As a fan, I'm pig sick of the condescension of people like you who trip over themselves in a stampede to defend a system that consistently short changes footballers, managers and the paying public alike by refusing to over turn decisions made by an increasing numberof poor officials.

Believe it or not, the game wasn't invented for cr@p referees to eke out a comfortable living without the scutiny that would ensure they either improve or get replaced.

The primary function of any appeals system should be to correct as many wrong decisions as possible and that is clearly not the case at the moment.

Daily Mail reader, yesterday. People make mistakes - the reason why they have to be strict on the appeals process is that c*nts like Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea, Stevie G et al would be constantly appealing and "influencing"

[Ian Royal]

So, seems like an awful defensive display from Pearce there.


Oh look a clean sheet.