Sinking Ship

[Royal With Cheese]

Whatever anyone's opinion, I really don't think now is the time to debate them, we've just got promoted and we're gunning for the title.

I would have thought, for people that argued against your comments at the time, this would be the ideal time to bring it up.

As I said at the time I disagreed with your snap assessment - although I sympathised with the sentiments. We then had a series of quite frankly rediculous goalpost moving to incorporate the next 10 years.

What I simply don't understand is the inability of a small secion of posters simply to admit they were wrong or, at the very least, give some ground away in the debate. I think that's the part that irked me the most.

To actually turn round and say, definitively, that 4 months after a takeover that hasn't actually happened yet proves your point is the best laugh I've had here in ages!

[Schards#2]

Jesus wept

2008/2009 - threw away automatic promotion and played some of the dullest football I've ever seen. We failed to win at home after 4th Jan and, such was the enthusiasm, that we could only pull 19,000 odd for a play off semi which, as everyone anticipated, we lost with a wimper.

2009/2010 - Didn't win at home until November and sacked the manager in December whilst in relegation touble. Subsequently recovered well largely due to the emergance of Sigurdsson.

2010/2011 - sold Sigurdsson and bumped around mid table until going on an inspired run from late Feb largely to the emergance of Long

2011/2012 - sold Long and were poor up to December where we found some form. In january new owners are unveiled and, instead of selling our best players we buy our new best player. Win 15 of 17 games to ensure promotion.

Without the arrival of TSI I think it is extremely unlikely we would be anywhere near promotion and may well not have Brian as manager. The cloth cutting that neccesitated the selling of our best players every year would, in the long term, only the drag the club in one direction. If you don't believe me, listen to Brian as he mentions this quite often.

I'm sure from Ian Royal's armchair all these games over the 4 years have been scintillating, in reality, many have been dull and forgettable and at times (notably 2008 and the early part of this year) our creativity was at a minimum with games passing by with barely a shot on target. As if by magic, new owners, the end of cloth cutting and new investment in a striker brought a sea change in results but i'm sure it was just a coincidence.

As I've said a few time on here, I don't really blame the players or Brian for our problems when we've been struggling, it's due to the cloth cutting, and I don't blame JM for the cloth cutting as, unless he's prepared to underwrite a blank cheque, it's a necessary evil. But to pretend it's been a thrill a minute ride since we've been relegated is laughable.

Without the TSI episode, it would still be, to coin a phrase, "hard to see progress for the forseeable future". But it happened and, as a result, it no longer is.

[melonhead]

the last four years have been the 2nd most amazing period in my time as reading supporter, its been an incredible roller coaster.and incredibly exciting, year on year.

imo


agree if TSI hadnt come in brian may have gone though, so cant fail to acknowlegde their contribution

[Schards#2]

the last four years have been the 2nd most amazing period in my time as reading supporter, its been an incredible roller coaster.and incredibly exciting, year on year.

imo


agree if TSI hadnt come in brian may have gone though, so cant fail to acknowlegde their contribution

Genuinely, I'm pleased for you and anyone else who feels the same.

A few years back, If we won, the quality of the game would have been a complete irrelevance to me but I think my whole attitude to football has changed a bit since 2006.

[Vision]

When the whole TSI news initially broke we were 5th in the table. This was near the end of January. There's no denying that the feelgood factor,extra funds and aquisition of Roberts added significant impetus but to suggest that we were "nowhere near promotion" or "poor" really doesn't add up.

[Schards#2]

When the whole TSI news initially broke we were 5th in the table. This was near the end of January. There's no denying that the feelgood factor,extra funds and aquisition of Roberts added significant impetus but to suggest that we were "nowhere near promotion" or "poor" really doesn't add up.

I said we were poor up to December (11th - 22 goals in 20 games)

The last pre Roberts game was Hull (h) after which we were 8th. Shortly after we, apparently, came close to losing our manager who stated he only signed a new contract after talks with the new owners.

[Snowball]

Dividing the season into 3 x 15 games, + Birmingham,the middle 15 we won 11 and got 33 points


The last game of that 15 was Roberts' first game. I think it's fair to say that 2.2ppg,
far better than league-winning form, had been going on, since the home win versus
Birmingham. Also two of those losses were unlucky. Good goal disallowed at Blackpool
and bad goal allowed for Hull at our place.

That middle 15 games we got 33 points, a 99 point season equivalent.

THIS current 15 we have 34 points with one game to play,
so if we win v Palace we'll have got an extra 4 points

So sure TSI, Roberts has had an effect but we were doing very very well before that was announced

[T.R.O.L.I.]

Shortly after we, apparently, came close to losing our manager who stated he only signed a new contract after talks with the new owners.

I think this has been massively understated.

No TSI would have meant no more Brian and, IMO, a mid table finish.

And that's also another reason to at Wolves.

[Vision]

When the whole TSI news initially broke we were 5th in the table. This was near the end of January. There's no denying that the feelgood factor,extra funds and aquisition of Roberts added significant impetus but to suggest that we were "nowhere near promotion" or "poor" really doesn't add up.

I said we were poor up to December (11th - 22 goals in 20 games)

The last pre Roberts game was Hull (h) after which we were 8th. Shortly after we, apparently, came close to losing our manager who stated he only signed a new contract after talks with the new owners.

By December 11th we were improving and our league position was steadily rising after a terrible start . We were 10th and just 5 points outside of the play-offs. In fact directly prior to the TSI announcement we won 5 of our previous 6 games so we were already on something of a roll.

We were poor prior to the end of the August window yet without TSI intervention made two significant signings in Gorkss and Le Fondre which started an upturn in our results

We weren't poor prior to Roberts signing and the TSI announcement either. In fact we were well in the play offs,with an improving record and in the exact same position as we finished the previous season. Losing a one-off game, with 3 of of our 4 regular midfielders missing and on a very dubious decision didn't mean we were"nowhere near promotion" unless you're extremely pessimistic.

As for losing McD, well it's entirely speculative to say he would have left. I've a slightly different (and totally unfounded ) theory about that but this probably isn't the thread to air it

As i say I'm not denying the significance of the TSI takeover or the signing of Roberts with regards to gaining automatic promotion but I still think we'd be in the play-offs anyway given our results in the dozen or so games prior to it.

[Royal Rother]

Shortly after we, apparently, came close to losing our manager who stated he only signed a new contract after talks with the new owners.

I think this has been massively understated.

No, it's actually being massively hugely OVERstated. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that you have this the wrong way round entirely.

He had no desire to leave the club, but with new owners coming in needed to speak with them first before signing a contract. Perfect common-sense.

It was obviously unsettling knowing that there was likely to be a regime change because he might have been out on his ear. The first question he asked Anton was whether he was going to bring in his own man as manager. Having spoken with Anton at length he knew he would get on well with him and felt confident of his future.

He would not have had cause to even consider his future if Anton had not come a-knocking. It would just have been something to deal with at the end of the campaign - a la Coppell.

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that being at an SJM owned 5th in the table RFC >>>> Bottom of the table Wolves in BM's mind. The only doubt was when the Russians came in because, prior to meeting them, he considered his job security to be severly reduced.

[Royal Lady]

Really?

BM always sounded so fed up with regard to selling Siggy and Long.

Had TSI not been mentioned, you really think he would not have even considered having a go at Wolves - the kudos of trying to get them to stay up? Able to work with the likes of Doyle and S Hunt again - knowing how they tick, how to get the best out of them? Taking a gamble at another club, because the one you are currently at was continually having to "cut cloth" and make your job ever more difficult season upon season, wouldn't have been such a bad thing for him surely?

Then we're told that TSI had spoken to him and he signed a longer contract on the basis of what TSI had told him (presumably more money to spend on players, not getting rid of key players).

[mr_number]

I guess it's easy to say now, but taking over Wolves would have been a massive risk regardless of how much money we had... They were always in trouble, and if you get relegated then it does tarnish your reputation as a manager. He may have been better served by waiting here for a mid-table team to come along. Obviously all conjecture, but I don't think it would have been cut and dr that he would have left.

[Royal Rother]

Really?

BM always sounded so fed up with regard to selling Siggy and Long.

Had TSI not been mentioned, you really think he would not have even considered having a go at Wolves - the kudos of trying to get them to stay up? Able to work with the likes of Doyle and S Hunt again - knowing how they tick, how to get the best out of them? Taking a gamble at another club, because the one you are currently at was continually having to "cut cloth" and make your job ever more difficult season upon season, wouldn't have been such a bad thing for him surely?

Then we're told that TSI had spoken to him and he signed a longer contract on the basis of what TSI had told him (presumably more money to spend on players, not getting rid of key players).

Yes really.

Of course he was not happy about having to sell the best players - what would anyone expect? But he LIKES the way the club is run, and respects it.

Yes, he would have considered Wolves - and quickly dismissed it.

Mine is the only obvious conclusion if you use your noggin'. Surprised no-one else had sussed it.

[soggy biscuit]

DuLOL and uninspiROFLing

[winchester_royal]

I'm on the Schards side here tbh.

McDermott's interview with Dellor after the game on Tuesday was very revealing. It's the first time I've heard him be so genuinely honest, and he admitted that he was desperate to be in the PL next season. He's obviously very ambitious, and confident in his abilities, and if Wolves had come knocking 2 months earlier he'd be gone.

He'd have realised that the chances of us going up (pre-TSI) were pretty slim, we weren't playing well pre-February, and if we had failed again this season (without TSI) we'd have been in big doo doo financially. There's only so much he could have done with this particular squad, and until another superstar emerged from the academy we weren't going anywhere fast. Once that inevitable decline starts to happen, Brian is no longer seen by premiership clubs as a realistic option, and his career slides too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that had Wolves come along, and TSI not been in place, McDermott would have seen it as his best chance to be a Premier League manager. There is no doubt he enjoys being at this club, but would he pass up a chance like that to stay here to manage a squad which he has to make a £5m profit with every season on a pretty poor wage? Would he bugger, and anyone who thinks that he would is looking at it from the perspective of a fan and not a career-minded 50-something year old.

[Royal With Cheese]

DuLOL and uninspiROFLing

Absolutely.

Whilst Schards' post has elements of truth the Campbell like spin is laughable. Subsequent posts have proved this.

[Z175]

First 6 games: (Start of season until 10 Sept)
Played 6, 4 points, 0.67 PPG, 23rd

Pre-TSI (17th Sept - 15 Jan)
Played 20, 38 points, 1.9 PPG 1st

Post-TSI (15th Jan- present)
Played 18, 46 points, 2.56 PPG 1st


Clearly TSI helped us, but we were the top team in the league for the 20 games before the takeover - try it yourself
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/en ... stom-table

So this is wrong!

Without the arrival of TSI I think it is extremely unlikely we would be anywhere near promotion

Brian leaving, Kebe not signing are all ifs and buts. We don't know how much Brian used Wolves to improve his job security , he certainly sounded devastated at Hull when the takeover was announced.

I do agree though, that certain games in the last 4 years and indeed been the definition of dull and unispiring. But to me that makes this all the sweeter...

[Maguire]

Disagree with Schards that we were "nowhere near promotion". We had a shot at the p/os due mainly to the solidity of our defence although I think (?) we'd all agree that without TSI this recent insane run of results wouldn't have happened.

Agree with Schards that in general the club was in a situation where progress was difficult to see due to the financial situation. The only thing that might have fixed this is an against-the-odds promotion which of course we almost managed last year. Sir John's cupboard is bare and you only have to listen to Brian speak to understand he was as depressed at selling off all our crown jewels as the rest of us.

What I will say is that Brian McDermott deserves enormous credit for acheiving as much as he has done with the resources at his disposal (pre-TSI). The late surge up the table in 09/10, the surge to the play-offs last season, and the p/o position he achieved pre-TSI this time around. With a poorer manager I think our deficiencies would've been more starkly highlighted. He's amazeballs.

The Wolves job - pure conjecture but I just don't think he would ever have taken it. Total poisoned chalice. I do think he would've left had someone better come knocking this summer had we failed to go up.

[Maguire]

DuLOL and uninspiROFLing

Absolutely.

Whilst Schards' post has elements of truth the Campbell like spin is laughable. Subsequent posts have proved this.

People seem hell bent on bashing him without stopping to consider that there might have been a grain of truth in some of what he said.

As I said, obviously he's somewhat hyperbolic but posts are supposed to be entertaining rather than po-faced so fair fcks to him.

[Royal With Cheese]

DuLOL and uninspiROFLing

Absolutely.

Whilst Schards' post has elements of truth the Campbell like spin is laughable. Subsequent posts have proved this.

People seem hell bent on bashing him without stopping to consider that there might have been a grain of truth in some of what he said.

As I said, obviously he's somewhat hyperbolic but posts are supposed to be entertaining rather than po-faced so fair fcks to him.

Absolutely not. There definately was a grain of truth. I've said that all along.

that's the problem though. There's no give and take in this debate. He'll defend an indefencible position to the end for the sake of it.

Put it like this - even David Irving admitted that a few Jews were killed by the Germans.