Wingers for 13/14

[Hoop Blah]

For me, I expect to see a combination of McAnuff, Drenthe and McLeary more often than other combo's, but as someone else said whoever plays in those three positions will be interchangable and not stuck to the left, right or the centre.

[Snowball]

A few points to consider in the pointless debate above...

- McLeary plays a higher proportion of his minutes on the pitch towards the end of games when,relatively speaking, goals are more common
- McAnuff takes a lot of corners and the odd free kick and so a few of his assists over the last couple of season come from there, so a bit of an advantage
- Robson-Kanu has been thrown on, and started, up front a number of times and so a direct comparison against other wingers favours him a fair bit
- when we play 4-4-2 the wingers on either side often have slightly different roles and McAnuff's often appears to be more restrained and defensive than the other wing where Kebe, McLeary or Robson-Kanu either don't defend as well or, more likely, are told not to quite as much (Kebe much improved here obviously)
- McAnuff has played centrally for a significant amount of minutes, and not centrally up behind the forwards either so again makes winger comparisons a bit pointless

Basically I don't think the stats cover the above enough.

Good points, Hoop.

My point is not to knock McAnuff. I think he's a hard-working player
and has been a good servant to the club. But I think merely quoting
his assists without noting the vast number of minutes he's played
makes him look better than he is.

But your point is valid. So what happens if we look at CAREER figures?

His CAREER average is one goal every 916 Minutes (10.2 games) and an assist every 471 minutes (5.25 games)

Jimmy is close to half McAnuff's Minutes. He has 3 more goals (439 minutes per goal) twice as good as Jobi and he is 370 minutes per assist

Combine goals and assist and Jobi is 318 Minutes and Jimmy is 201 minutes


225 Apps 16,672 Minutes - 38 Goals (439) - 45 Assists (370) Combined (201) Kebe
165 Apps 08,597 Minutes - 17 Goals (506) - 23 Assists (374) Combined (215) McCleary
179 Apps 09,748 Minutes - 27 Goals (361) - 15 Assists (650) Combined (226) HRK
391 Apps 32,074 Minutes - 35 Goals (916) - 68 Assists (471) Combined (318) McAnuff

Hal looks like he will eventually blow the others away




165 17 - 23 13 - 2 88 37 506 8597

[Snowball]

Just noticed that Kebe+HRK+McCleary combined are similar minutes to McAnuff's total

35,017 Minutes 82 Goals 93 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - Kebe + McCleary + HRK Combined
35,017 Minutes 39 Goals 75 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - McAnuff + 10%
32,074 Minutes 35 Goals 68 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - McAnuff

The average of HRK-McCleary-Kebe over the same minutes worth an extra 43 Goals and 18 Assists That is a big difference

[Ian Royal]

GAme time buddy. You would expect a winger who starts every game to be right up there if not at the top of the assists chart hence why jobi is.

You might want to tell that to all the wingers who don't achieve it. And as Maff showed, McAnuff out performs McCleary in minutes per assist. Especially when you factor in that he's played centrally and less attacking more than any of our other wingers, as Hoop hits on.

So basically, what you're saying is you *think* McCleary's more dangerous. The available stats don't back that up, and it's pretty subjective.

Will McAnuff play a lot? No one but Adkins knows and he may not know yet. But if he does play, it'd be nice to see him get the recognition he deserves for a change. Rather than the unfair criticism he normally gets in favour of players who haven't performed as well as he has.

[WestRoyal]

GAme time buddy. You would expect a winger who starts every game to be right up there if not at the top of the assists chart hence why jobi is.

You might want to tell that to all the wingers who don't achieve it. And as Maff showed, McAnuff out performs McCleary in minutes per assist. Especially when you factor in that he's played centrally and less attacking more than any of our other wingers, as Hoop hits on.

So basically, what you're saying is you *think* McCleary's more dangerous. The available stats don't back that up, and it's pretty subjective.

Will McAnuff play a lot? No one but Adkins knows and he may not know yet. But if he does play, it'd be nice to see him get the recognition he deserves for a change. Rather than the unfair criticism he normally gets in favour of players who haven't performed as well as he has.

Just because I rate another player better does not mean I'm giving unfair critism to another and Im cert not out here to give Jobi stick as i have praised and fought his corner many times on here. But even with all the stats you have thrown I still think McCleary is more of a threat going forward. Stronger, quicker, comfortable shooting off either foot will get better. Jobi may be better defensively but you are gonna say that. And this less attacking role in the centre I don't buy but if you take away the number of times he has been there he has still played more. If McCleary plays all the time and doesn't perform I will drop him down the pecking order in just the same way. But from what I saw of him under Adkins he did alright.

No one knows who will come good, different managers and diff styles have different effects on players regardless of the season they had previous.

[WestRoyal]

A few points to consider in the pointless debate above...

- McLeary plays a higher proportion of his minutes on the pitch towards the end of games when,relatively speaking, goals are more common
- McAnuff takes a lot of corners and the odd free kick and so a few of his assists over the last couple of season come from there, so a bit of an advantage
- Robson-Kanu has been thrown on, and started, up front a number of times and so a direct comparison against other wingers favours him a fair bit
- when we play 4-4-2 the wingers on either side often have slightly different roles and McAnuff's often appears to be more restrained and defensive than the other wing where Kebe, McLeary or Robson-Kanu either don't defend as well or, more likely, are told not to quite as much (Kebe much improved here obviously)
- McAnuff has played centrally for a significant amount of minutes, and not centrally up behind the forwards either so again makes winger comparisons a bit pointless

Basically I don't think the stats cover the above enough.

Only one of mcclearys goals last season came when he came on as a sub the rest were scored in games he started

[Hoop Blah]

So 33% of his league goals?

What about his assists?

[Snowball]

Dunno on McLeary's assists but his first was first half at Chelsea where he had a cracking game going forward and tackling back

We ought to remover too that in that game

Gunter dived in on Hazard for a pen
Feds let in avert bad goal from distance
Torres' goal was unequivocally offside
Goal 4 was when Feds was AWOL in their area trying for 3-3

[jellytot]

Do not see us keeping McCleary, HRK, Drenthe,Jobi and Kebe all happy.. one will definitely leave maybe two. If we were in the PL yes but in chumpionship McCleary will not take it being on the bench for long.. and who else will be benchman of the other four? Can see us having to have maybe 3 decent wingers on our books and surviving on youth back up.

[SCIAG]

Just noticed that Kebe+HRK+McCleary combined are similar minutes to McAnuff's total

35,017 Minutes 82 Goals 93 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - Kebe + McCleary + HRK Combined
35,017 Minutes 39 Goals 75 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - McAnuff + 10%
32,074 Minutes 35 Goals 68 Assists - - - - - - - - - - - - McAnuff

The average of HRK-McCleary-Kebe over the same minutes worth an extra 43 Goals and 18 Assists That is a big difference

You're not comparing like-for-like there though, are you? For starters, lots of McAnuff's minutes were in struggling sides like Watford and the start of his time at Reading (where McAnuff was the best player under Rodgers and Kebe was out of favour). Secondly, Robson-Kanu in particular benefits from the "impact substitute" effect. Robson-Kanu also takes penalties, though of course this is because he is better at them than McAnuff. Third, McAnuff has improved an awful lot since his early Watford days. McCleary's contribution is only measured over a few seasons, so he hasn't improved as much in the meantime. Fourth, McCleary often played up front for Forest.

Finally, you are not measuring the entirety of a player's impact. You are not taking into account that McAnuff has done a lot of defensive work for us, whereas the others don't have a defensive bone in their body (Kebe has improved over the last 18 months or so but that's a small part of those combined minutes). You are not taking into account McAnuff's superior passing and ball retention abilities. McAnuff is often the player who makes the penultimate pass before the goal, which isn't counted as an "assist" but is still valuable. Players like Xabi Alonso, Andrea Pirlo, Xavi, Luka Modric, Moussa Dembele and so forth have made careers out of those sorts of passes, but if you compared them in terms of raw goals and assists to players like Gerrard and Lampard then they would look pathetic.

It's not enough to simply quote numbers, you've got to contextualise them and make sure that you are making a valid comparison.

[Ian Royal]

What a thoroughly mental post that is from snowball.

[maffff]

What a thoroughly typical and not even remotely surprising post that is from snowball.

[Ian Royal]

What a thoroughly typical and not even remotely surprising post that is from snowball.

Oh come on, even by his standards it's bafflingly bonkers.

[Snowball]

Matthew 7:6

[maffff]

Matthew 7:6

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Your point?

[Snowball]

Matthew 7:6 IS the point

[maffff]

Matthew 7:6 IS the point

I wouldn't know. I'm as apathetic to religion as I am to your statistics.

[MouldyRoyal]

he's saying pearls before swine.

[Platypuss]

Unfortunately for Snowball his stuff is more Ezekiel 23:20

[Ian Royal]

Why is snowball making references to beastiality on a thread about wingers? Why would he even think anyone might want to give a pig a pearl necklace?