Gunter

[Snowflake Royal]

Gunter does exactly what he has to do to take the least responsibility with the least chance of catastrophic failure for him on the pitch. That's not what we need.

Compare to Blackett, who makes more catastrophic errors in possession, but at least he tries to make things happen and be positive. And that's reflected in his better passing and crossing stats. You won't see any fans creaming themselves over him the way they do Gunter though. And he's been at (partial) fault for fewer goals this season than Gunter too.

Don't really get this. Some of the best players are those that just do the simple things, and not try to take risks, be a one man hero, or do things they know they can't do.

Blackett's got many issues, not just the fact he often looks confused, lost, out of depth and asleep. You say "at least he tries to make things happen and be positive". Not sure that's working for him in anyway.

I'd say - at least Gunter does what he feels he can do and that is to pass to another player which is a straight forward pass, nothing spectacular, and just gets on.

I'd rather that than players trying to run with the ball and make glory passes, only to continually lose it.

I appreciate the effort to read what I said and engage in a conversation, even though we disagree. Thanks.

I'd argue that there is a difference between playing simple balls and within your ability and avoiding risk. It's like talking about risk management and saying you should be risk averse. No. Risk averse is not good. Risks are necessary, but the right risks, with the right risk vs reward value.

Take McShane for example (or Pearce from a few years ago). Not the best passer of our centrebacks by any stretch of the imagination. They tried to keep things simple and play within their ability for passing. That doesn't mean negativity or being overly cautious though. McShane still plays positive passes. He played a couple of delightful balls into attack early on against Norwich. I've seen him play balls to feet into our attackers through relatively small gaps as well. When he sees a positive pass worth doing, he makes it. I just don't see that from Gunter... it's like he plays on a shit auto pilot safety mode.

I consider this to be shown in most aspects of his game, not just short passing. His crossing - rarely does he try to pick out someone specific, it's always just an area and hoping someone went there. Or getting into a position and deciding he should cross without having engineered the space, so he just plays it straight against the defender. Or in the way he defends. You'll often see him backing off from a winger whilst 3 / 4 / 5 yards away. He needs to be getting close enough that he makes crossing difficult and can react to a poor touch - about arms length, maybe two arms length at most.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think Gunter avoids taking the responsibility of doing anything positive because it has a greater risk of going wrong. It's like he does his risk analysis, but fails to do any of the reward consideration.

[muirinho]

Gunter does exactly what he has to do to take the least responsibility with the least chance of catastrophic failure for him on the pitch. That's not what we need.

Compare to Blackett, who makes more catastrophic errors in possession, but at least he tries to make things happen and be positive. And that's reflected in his better passing and crossing stats. You won't see any fans creaming themselves over him the way they do Gunter though. And he's been at (partial) fault for fewer goals this season than Gunter too.

Don't really get this. Some of the best players are those that just do the simple things, and not try to take risks, be a one man hero, or do things they know they can't do.

Blackett's got many issues, not just the fact he often looks confused, lost, out of depth and asleep. You say "at least he tries to make things happen and be positive". Not sure that's working for him in anyway.

I'd say - at least Gunter does what he feels he can do and that is to pass to another player which is a straight forward pass, nothing spectacular, and just gets on.

I'd rather that than players trying to run with the ball and make glory passes, only to continually lose it.

I appreciate the effort to read what I said and engage in a conversation, even though we disagree. Thanks.

I'd argue that there is a difference between playing simple balls and within your ability and avoiding risk. It's like talking about risk management and saying you should be risk averse. No. Risk averse is not good. Risks are necessary, but the right risks, with the right risk vs reward value.

Take McShane for example (or Pearce from a few years ago). Not the best passer of our centrebacks by any stretch of the imagination. They tried to keep things simple and play within their ability for passing. That doesn't mean negativity or being overly cautious though. McShane still plays positive passes. He played a couple of delightful balls into attack early on against Norwich. I've seen him play balls to feet into our attackers through relatively small gaps as well. When he sees a positive pass worth doing, he makes it. I just don't see that from Gunter... it's like he plays on a shit auto pilot safety mode.

I consider this to be shown in most aspects of his game, not just short passing. His crossing - rarely does he try to pick out someone specific, it's always just an area and hoping someone went there. Or getting into a position and deciding he should cross without having engineered the space, so he just plays it straight against the defender. Or in the way he defends. You'll often see him backing off from a winger whilst 3 / 4 / 5 yards away. He needs to be getting close enough that he makes crossing difficult and can react to a poor touch - about arms length, maybe two arms length at most.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think Gunter avoids taking the responsibility of doing anything positive because it has a greater risk of going wrong. It's like he does his risk analysis, but fails to do any of the reward consideration.

I think the truth is that when you watch Gunter, you are always looking for a negative way of looking at what he's doing, rather than a positive way, simply because you're convinced he's no good. It's a never-ending loop, because anytime he does something good, you're sure he did it by accident, or it wasn't actually that good at all. Negativity feeds negativity, and at the end of it you're wondering how on earth he's ever managed to earn a living.

He came closer to scoring on Saturday then any of our midfielders or forwards. Did you notice that shot against the woodwork? Or did you decide in your own head that he was actually trying to cross? Was it a positive move that very nearly came off? Or a negative one?

He played a number of very tight balls around his opposite number, up the line. Did you see those? Or did you dismiss them as nothing, purely because the receiver did nothing with them?

Delivering pin-point crosses - there are many many PL players, let alone Championship ones, who can't do this, or only do it very rarely. What they actually do is cross it into an area, and expect that a decent forward will do their best to get on the end of it. So - anybody else who delivers a percentage cross like that - you're probably shouting at the forwards for not getting in the box. If Gunts does it, you're screaming "who the hell was that to".

Similarly, for defending. Take that 2nd goal on Saturday. Gunts faffed about with the ball for 5 minutes in a horrible spell - but we didn't concede. Then Macca cleared for a corner. Then Blackett completely failed to deal with the corner. So you'd regard that as Gunter's fault. I can see why.

But if we swapped around the way it happened - Blackett did his very common deer-in- headlights defending which eventually led to a corner, and Gunter it was who couldn't cope with the bouncing ball from that corner - you'd still blame Gunter, as he should have dealt with it. Swap it round again, so that he concedes the corner in the first place - and it would be his fault for not clearing up-field. Because it's Gunter, and he was on the pitch, therefore it must be his fault.

Because that's the way it is for you.

[bcubed]

Exactly

[Ascotexgunner]

He has 81 International caps for Wales (who are a far better team than England)

A serious contender for the biggest load of sh*te I've read this season.

Wales is essentially Bale +10, but even with that one world class player, man for man, they should be a long way short of any side England are capable of fielding. Hodgson's managerial shortcomings do not make Gunter comparable to Danny Rose and Kyle Walker or even remotely in the same ball park .

Utter b*ll*cks, Ramsay, Williams, Lesley, Allen are quality team players, we beat the worlds number one team in the Euros 3-1 on their own patch (when did England last achieve that in a major tournament), this team were bought up together. What separates Gunter from big game chokers like Walker and Rose in major tournaments is that he works with the team and does what he's asked, he doesn't go bombing forward like a headless chicken. I've been one Gunters biggest critics but he's been decent for me. I've seen him deliver better crosses than those above and wish he would go forward more, I can't help but feel the manager is suffocating that talent he has.

[Snowflake Royal]

I think the truth is that when you watch Gunter, you are always looking for a negative way of looking at what he's doing, rather than a positive way, simply because you're convinced he's no good. It's a never-ending loop, because anytime he does something good, you're sure he did it by accident, or it wasn't actually that good at all. Negativity feeds negativity, and at the end of it you're wondering how on earth he's ever managed to earn a living.

There's absolutely an element of this in all things. When you watch 90 minutes of a football match it's natural that only some things are going to stick in your mind and be what you remember. I'm generally pretty objective though. I frequently see incidents that go against us like referring decisions where the more partisan members of our crowd are screaming at the unfairness and think, 'no, spot on'. I'm happy to criticse my favourites if they have poor games and I've acknowledged Gunter when he's had good games in the past. In that incident just before he was subbed against Hull where he passed backwards to McShane, there were lots of people jeering him. I was surprised by this and certainly wasn't one of them, I was too busy screaming for movement from the midfield and forwards because there was literally no pass for him to make. If it's not his fault, I'm not interested in blaming him.

A certain element of it is of course going to be personal taste and what you value in terms of playing style. The things I value, Gunter does not do well more often than not. You may differ in what you value or focus on. Or have higher tolerance for certain things.

He came closer to scoring on Saturday then any of our midfielders or forwards. Did you notice that shot against the woodwork? Or did you decide in your own head that he was actually trying to cross? Was it a positive move that very nearly came off? Or a negative one?

It was very well struck and clearly deliberate. But one good action, which doesn't actually influence the result doesn't make up for the dozens of poor actions I saw. Not that it was Gunter's only good action.

He played a number of very tight balls around his opposite number, up the line. Did you see those? Or did you dismiss them as nothing, purely because the receiver did nothing with them?

I was thinking during the first half that he was actually having a decent game, one of his better in fact, being much more positive with those sorts of balls (many of them first time passes iirc). I think I acknowledged that somewhere on the BTFG thread. That was ruined by an absolutely abject second half though. My thoughts on Gunter aren't about one game. They're a culmination of his general play over 5 seasons now.

Delivering pin-point crosses - there are many many PL players, let alone Championship ones, who can't do this, or only do it very rarely. What they actually do is cross it into an area, and expect that a decent forward will do their best to get on the end of it. So - anybody else who delivers a percentage cross like that - you're probably shouting at the forwards for not getting in the box. If Gunts does it, you're screaming "who the hell was that to".

You're descending into you're own preconceived perceptions of what I'm like here and it does you no credit. There is a place for crossing into an area and expecting someone to be making the right run. I have indeed been frustrated when two players make the same run in the box rather than attack different areas and so aren't in the right place. I also get frustrated with other players who put in pointless crosses. Other players certainly are guilty of the same thing as Gunter, but the point is I believe they do so to a lesser extent.

Similarly, for defending. Take that 2nd goal on Saturday. Gunts faffed about with the ball for 5 minutes in a horrible spell - but we didn't concede. Then Macca cleared for a corner. Then Blackett completely failed to deal with the corner. So you'd regard that as Gunter's fault. I can see why.

This is pathetic. I don't think I've attributed particular fault for that goal on Gunter. I have said that he was awful in the build up (he was) and that it disrupted our play and ultimately led to us being under pressure for the passage of play that we conceded. I also said I thought the crowd calling out the ball placement had an affect on our concentration. I don't think the ball should even have been able to make it across the goal to the back post from what I remember of the corner. But if you look where I've listed the goals where I think he's got at least joint fault this season, I'm pretty sure Norwich doesn't feature. If it does, I take it back and apologise.

Incidentally, I don't really understand why Blackett was picking up Jerome, was that the deal on all set pieces? I would have expected Moore or McShane, who were tussling with him all game to pick him up. Blackett certainly oxf*rd up there.

But if we swapped around the way it happened - Blackett did his very common deer-in- headlights defending which eventually led to a corner, and Gunter it was who couldn't cope with the bouncing ball from that corner - you'd still blame Gunter, as he should have dealt with it. Swap it round again, so that he concedes the corner in the first place - and it would be his fault for not clearing up-field. Because it's Gunter, and he was on the pitch, therefore it must be his fault.

Could we focus on things I've actually said rather than tedious make-believe from your own (ignorant) preconceptions of me please?

Because that's the way it is for you.

Whilst you make a bit of an effort at the start, rather than actually engage the point and the specifics I've raised, you've spent most of your post make-believing what I think and do and saying I'd have a different opinion about someone else doing the same thing. Based on nothing.

[Snowflake Royal]

Whilst I was thinking about it I had a look at Gunter's crossing accuracy stats:

This season it's 9%, compared to 56% for Blackett and 25% for Obita (from 23, 18 and 8 crosses respectively).

Across their Reading Championship careers it works out roughly like this:
Player / 90 min Equiv / crosses / accuracy / assists
Gunter / 183 / 570 / 16% / 8
Obita / 133 / 711 / 26% / 16
Blackett / 45 / 48 / 40% / 2
S Kelly / 30 / 54 / 20% / 2
Taylor* / 19 / 53 / 21% / 1

* I'd forgotten he existed.

[Woodcote Royal]

He has 81 International caps for Wales (who are a far better team than England)

A serious contender for the biggest load of sh*te I've read this season.

Wales is essentially Bale +10, but even with that one world class player, man for man, they should be a long way short of any side England are capable of fielding. Hodgson's managerial shortcomings do not make Gunter comparable to Danny Rose and Kyle Walker or even remotely in the same ball park .

Utter b*ll*cks, Ramsay, Williams, Lesley, Allen are quality team players, we beat the worlds number one team in the Euros 3-1 on their own patch (when did England last achieve that in a major tournament), this team were bought up together. What separates Gunter from big game chokers like Walker and Rose in major tournaments is that he works with the team and does what he's asked, he doesn't go bombing forward like a headless chicken. I've been one Gunters biggest critics but he's been decent for me. I've seen him deliver better crosses than those above and wish he would go forward more, I can't help but feel the manager is suffocating that talent he has.

This would be Kyle "£53m Choker" Walker. So, any cheeky bid for the superior Gunter would have funded at least 2 strikers plus their wages for several seasons...........................I can't believe the club failed to take advantage of such an obvious route to solving our goal drought. Heads should roll for this!

[bobby1413]

I think the truth is that when you watch Gunter, you are always looking for a negative way of looking at what he's doing, rather than a positive way, simply because you're convinced he's no good. It's a never-ending loop, because anytime he does something good, you're sure he did it by accident, or it wasn't actually that good at all. Negativity feeds negativity, and at the end of it you're wondering how on earth he's ever managed to earn a living.

He came closer to scoring on Saturday then any of our midfielders or forwards. Did you notice that shot against the woodwork? Or did you decide in your own head that he was actually trying to cross? Was it a positive move that very nearly came off? Or a negative one?

He played a number of very tight balls around his opposite number, up the line. Did you see those? Or did you dismiss them as nothing, purely because the receiver did nothing with them?

Delivering pin-point crosses - there are many many PL players, let alone Championship ones, who can't do this, or only do it very rarely. What they actually do is cross it into an area, and expect that a decent forward will do their best to get on the end of it. So - anybody else who delivers a percentage cross like that - you're probably shouting at the forwards for not getting in the box. If Gunts does it, you're screaming "who the hell was that to".

Similarly, for defending. Take that 2nd goal on Saturday. Gunts faffed about with the ball for 5 minutes in a horrible spell - but we didn't concede. Then Macca cleared for a corner. Then Blackett completely failed to deal with the corner. So you'd regard that as Gunter's fault. I can see why.

But if we swapped around the way it happened - Blackett did his very common deer-in- headlights defending which eventually led to a corner, and Gunter it was who couldn't cope with the bouncing ball from that corner - you'd still blame Gunter, as he should have dealt with it. Swap it round again, so that he concedes the corner in the first place - and it would be his fault for not clearing up-field. Because it's Gunter, and he was on the pitch, therefore it must be his fault.

Because that's the way it is for you.

Really good post and it makes a lot of sense.

Great point too about a cross going in to no one and fans screaming "who was that to?". We've seen it in neutral games like on Match of the Day when Alan Shearer says "why eye man, look at this ball, he whips it in and no ones there... where have the forwards gone? You can't expect to score with no one there".

[Hound]

Whilst I was thinking about it I had a look at Gunter's crossing accuracy stats:

This season it's 9%, compared to 56% for Blackett and 25% for Obita (from 23, 18 and 8 crosses respectively).

Across their Reading Championship careers it works out roughly like this:
Player / 90 min Equiv / crosses / accuracy / assists
Gunter / 183 / 570 / 16% / 8
Obita / 133 / 711 / 26% / 16
Blackett / 45 / 48 / 40% / 2
S Kelly / 30 / 54 / 20% / 2
Taylor* / 19 / 53 / 21% / 1

* I'd forgotten he existed.

Wow. We should be playing Blackett left wing. 56% is ridiculous

[muirinho]

You're descending into you're own preconceived perceptions of what I'm like here and it does you no credit.

This is pathetic. I don't think I've attributed particular fault for that goal on Gunter. I have said that he was awful in the build up (he was) and that it disrupted our play and ultimately led to us being under pressure for the passage of play that we conceded.

Whilst you make a bit of an effort at the start, rather than actually engage the point and the specifics I've raised, you've spent most of your post make-believing what I think and do and saying I'd have a different opinion about someone else doing the same thing. Based on nothing.

The way I see it. No make-believe on offer at all.

Exhibit A - Player Ratings

Gunter -
We agree: Good in first half
We agree: Shambolic 5 minute spell in second half
You say : which unsettled other players. But that's dumb. Joey and Blackett must average three clusterfucks between them per match. If any player is still unsettled by another guy's mistakes 5 minutes ago, when the game has stopped and restarted in the meantime, frankly that's on them, not Gunter.
We agree: Came closer than anybody to scoring in second half
We agree: Not responsible for either goal

Your Rating : 2

McShane -
We agree: Good in the first half
We agree (I think): At least partially responsible for 2nd goal

(Note - as captain, he should have been making sure nobody switched off during the retake of the corner, rather than, frankly, switching off himself. He should also have been making sure the right player was on Jerome. As a central defender, he should have been involved himself in trying to clear the ball)

Your rating: 7

If you weren't blaming Gunts for the goal, how is there such a disparity in scores? Does he start off on -3?

Exhibit B - Language Used

Player initiates attacking move but then makes a mess of it

Gunter (move that ended at the edge of the penalty area)
Your words Decides to stumble around failing to control pass or shoot
Your overall reaction: concentrating on negatives, ignoring the fact that he was actually trying to do something to begin with.

Blackett
Your words: At least he tries to make things happen
and
his awful passes were the right idea
Your overall reaction: Broadly positive, looking for the plus points

I could do this all day. We also have you listing every mistake Gunter made in the second half. But not for anybody else. Despite the fact that the whole teams performance was worse in the second half.

Sooooo. Based on my reading of your posts about this specific game, you appear to be demanding entirely different standards of one player than of others, and then claiming you're being perfectly fair.

I don't think you are.

[Y21]

Whilst I was thinking about it I had a look at Gunter's crossing accuracy stats:

This season it's 9%, compared to 56% for Blackett and 25% for Obita (from 23, 18 and 8 crosses respectively).

Across their Reading Championship careers it works out roughly like this:
Player / 90 min Equiv / crosses / accuracy / assists
Gunter / 183 / 570 / 16% / 8
Obita / 133 / 711 / 26% / 16
Blackett / 45 / 48 / 40% / 2
S Kelly / 30 / 54 / 20% / 2
Taylor* / 19 / 53 / 21% / 1

* I'd forgotten he existed.

That's an interesting* collection of numbers. I wonder how the accuracy is calculated? Is it finding another players head/foot? Or is it just getting the ball into the 'right place'? And if the ball doesn't find another players head/foot, is that the fault of the person playing the cross or the fault of the other players not being in the 'right place'?

I do think you *try* to be objective, but you do seem to have an overly myopic opinion of Gunter, one that is almost bordering on obsessive. The number of managers who have played him ahead of other options, the fact he has filled in at left back ahead of other options suggests to me that professional football people can see and appreciate his footballing ability, and honestly, I'd trust their judgement more than yours, sorry.

[BR2]

It will be interesting to see what impact our "Wales player of the year" has on the two qualifying games now that Bale is unavailable-he and the rest will have to step up a notch or two if they are going to get through.

The contributions of Ian and Murhino made good reading-i am very much with Ian but accept the point that when you dislike a player it is normal to accentuate the bad rather than the good that a player does.

More than anything else it is the lack of bravery and lack of concentration (also applicable to Blackett) that annoy me in Gunter's play plus the inevitable pointing at others when he has taken on no personal responsibility of his own.
We are stuck with him probably for nearly 3 more years so can only hope that his experience gained from the many international games will make him more like an international player when he wears the blue and white hoops-so far IMHO he has looked far from being an international player.

[Eric Hitchmough]

Whilst I was thinking about it I had a look at Gunter's crossing accuracy stats:

This season it's 9%, compared to 56% for Blackett and 25% for Obita (from 23, 18 and 8 crosses respectively).

Across their Reading Championship careers it works out roughly like this:
Player / 90 min Equiv / crosses / accuracy / assists
Gunter / 183 / 570 / 16% / 8
Obita / 133 / 711 / 26% / 16
Blackett / 45 / 48 / 40% / 2
S Kelly / 30 / 54 / 20% / 2
Taylor* / 19 / 53 / 21% / 1

* I'd forgotten he existed.

Just Championship games is that? Any idea how Gunter got on in his 20 Premier League appearances for us?

[Snowflake Royal]

Whilst I was thinking about it I had a look at Gunter's crossing accuracy stats:

This season it's 9%, compared to 56% for Blackett and 25% for Obita (from 23, 18 and 8 crosses respectively).

Across their Reading Championship careers it works out roughly like this:
Player / 90 min Equiv / crosses / accuracy / assists
Gunter / 183 / 570 / 16% / 8
Obita / 133 / 711 / 26% / 16
Blackett / 45 / 48 / 40% / 2
S Kelly / 30 / 54 / 20% / 2
Taylor* / 19 / 53 / 21% / 1

* I'd forgotten he existed.

Just Championship games is that? Any idea how Gunter got on in his 20 Premier League appearances for us?

23% from 65 crosses: 20 - 30% seems to be the standard to expect for a full back, but then we've not exactly been great in that period. Be interesting to see a much larger sample set. He seems to have normally knocked in around the 18 - 23%, but this season is diabolical.

Obvs normal rules apply... reliability of the stats is open to question as is their methodology in calculating... they are certainly not the whole picture by any stretch... but they're a decent counterpoint of something reasonably relevant and objective.

[John Smith]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

[leon]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

nah - I tell you who did have a shocker Aaron Ramsey. For someone of his ability and experience with the players they were missing Wales needed him to step up and take responsibility - he utterly bottled it.

[Tilehurstsouthbank]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

Good to see him take his form into his international duties...

[John Smith]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

nah - I tell you who did have a shocker Aaron Ramsey. For someone of his ability and experience with the players they were missing Wales needed him to step up and take responsibility - he utterly bottled it.

Ye, I'll give you that. Could probably say the same for the whole squad really but definitely Hennessey as well

[leon]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

nah - I tell you who did have a shocker Aaron Ramsey. For someone of his ability and experience with the players they were missing Wales needed him to step up and take responsibility - he utterly bottled it.

Ye, I'll give you that. Could probably say the same for the whole squad really but definitely Hennessey as well

Calls for Coleman to be our manager are ironic bearing in mind the goal the ROI scored had RFC levels of farting about at the back written all over it.

[Hound]

Watched the Wales v Ireland game last night - the young man had a shocker

Thought he was one of their better players. Solid defensively and definitely plays 20 yards further forward for them than he does us