MATCHWATCH : Rotherham United (h)

[RoyalBlue]

It was odd coming away from the game feeling that we'd nicked the win when before the pen I was thinking this was 2 points dropped. We deserved the win even if the pen was soft. I actually thought both were soft and the one that Wing didn't get was more deserved.

A poor ref that seemed to fall for all Rotherham's tricks, fall over and get a foul. Bring back Sian from Tuesday.

Maybe I'll get a whoosh here but it wasn't Sian Massey-Ellis. It was Abigail Byrne who I believe is refereeing her first season in League 1.

[Snowflake Royal]

Watching the highlights, I'm struggling to see the fuss on the ref decisions.

Rotherham's first disallowed goal, the striker has hands on the defender as he runs round him and the defender goes down like he's been pulled over. It's in clear line of sight of the ref and the lino. You may have wanted your defender to defend better and be stronger, or feel your striker didn't apply much pressure. But any time you lay on hands and someone goes over like that, there's a decent chance a foul is given.

Their second disallowed goal, their striker is clearly just offside. Clearly in the path the ball takes and clearly in fron of Pereira affecting his decision. I don't care whether he touches the ball, that should be ruled out every single time based on the laws.

As for our late penalty to us, it's similar to their first disallowed goal. It's a bit soft, but hands are laid on in the box and our player goes down in what looks a genuine way, when they'd have otherwise probably got the ball.

Pen. And certainly consistent with the earlier decision.

I think the ref maybe could have made some different decisions with those key incidents, but he's got them all correct.

[Orion1871]

Watching the highlights, I'm struggling to see the fuss on the ref decisions.

Rotherham's first disallowed goal, the striker has hands on the defender as he runs round him and the defender goes down like he's been pulled over. It's in clear line of sight of the ref and the lino. You may have wanted your defender to defend better and be stronger, or feel your striker didn't apply much pressure. But any time you lay on hands and someone goes over like that, there's a decent chance a foul is given.

Their second disallowed goal, their striker is clearly just offside. Clearly in the path the ball takes and clearly in fron of Pereira affecting his decision. I don't care whether he touches the ball, that should be ruled out every single time based on the laws.

As for our late penalty to us, it's similar to their first disallowed goal. It's a bit soft, but hands are laid on in the box and our player goes down in what looks a genuine way, when they'd have otherwise probably got the ball.

Pen. And certainly consistent with the earlier decision.

I think the ref maybe could have made some different decisions with those key incidents, but he's got them all correct.

You can't see the full extent from that angle, but sat behind the goal you could see that Bindon was definitely pulled down. Hugill yanked him down by the back of his collar. Clear foul and no way it should have stood.

[leon]

Odd game. Should have been 2 up after 45 minutes. 2nd half we were piss poor.

Campbell was a waste of space again, was playing too far up the pitch and never tracked back leaving Craig exposed. Again.

Knibbs had a word with him after the second disallowed goal as the guy who scored ran from behind him and Campbell was just sauntering. He doesn’t add anything in attack to warrant not doing his job defensively or positionally.

[Gunny Fishcake]

I thought it was an entertaining game, who can't go home happy after a 94th minute winning penalty, out league position is still way above expectations , let's enjoy it while it lasts

[RoyalBlue]

In the highlights the AR on the West Stand side can clearly be seen to be saying 'Number eight, number eight' as he holds his flag out.

However, I'm confused. Did Mbengue not get his head on the ball and didn't he deliberately attempt to head the cross clear? If so, doesn't that negate the offside? Can any qualified refs on here clarify for me please?

[tidus_mi2]

In the highlights the AR on the West Stand side can clearly be seen to be saying 'Number eight, number eight' as he holds his flag out.

However, I'm confused. Did Mbengue not get his head on the ball and didn't he deliberately attempt to head the cross clear? If so, doesn't that negate the offside? Can any qualified refs on here clarify for me please?

As far as I understand the judgement of the rule, Mbengue is adjudged to have only made the attempted clearence due to the player in the offside position behind him, therefore interfering with play, therefore being flagged offside.

[RoyalBlue]

In the highlights the AR on the West Stand side can clearly be seen to be saying 'Number eight, number eight' as he holds his flag out.

However, I'm confused. Did Mbengue not get his head on the ball and didn't he deliberately attempt to head the cross clear? If so, doesn't that negate the offside? Can any qualified refs on here clarify for me please?

As far as I understand the judgement of the rule, Mbengue is adjudged to have only made the attempted clearence due to the player in the offside position behind him, therefore interfering with play, therefore being flagged offside.

That would make sense. Thanks.

[Hound]

In the highlights the AR on the West Stand side can clearly be seen to be saying 'Number eight, number eight' as he holds his flag out.

However, I'm confused. Did Mbengue not get his head on the ball and didn't he deliberately attempt to head the cross clear? If so, doesn't that negate the offside? Can any qualified refs on here clarify for me please?

As far as I understand the judgement of the rule, Mbengue is adjudged to have only made the attempted clearence due to the player in the offside position behind him, therefore interfering with play, therefore being flagged offside.

Think the player was also preventing Bindon from getting to the ball after the Mbengue header. Assume if he was offside from the initial cross he’s still offside even if Mbengue does get a touch on it

Was a bit useless by Mbengue though

[JedMaxwell]

We've had some shit decisions go against us this season so today was definitely an example of the old cliche of them evening out over a season.

The decision to rule out Mbengue's OG is as bad as any I've seen, and the winning penalty was so soft after all the stonewallers we've been denied.

It’s possible the crappest cliche in football. Just about the only thing guaranteed is that you’ll be either up or down to some extent over a season - very rarely even.

The second most dumb cliche is that penalty shoot outs are a lottery. Such lazy punditry and completely wrong. Whichever team shows greater penalty skills will win.

I'd like to humbly disagree with your penalty shootout assertion. I agree it's not a lottery by any means, but in my opinion it's all psychological.

You can be not great at pens, but if you're not affected by the pressure you're more likely to score than someone with loads of ability who can't handle pressure well.

[Snowflake Royal]

We've had some shit decisions go against us this season so today was definitely an example of the old cliche of them evening out over a season.

The decision to rule out Mbengue's OG is as bad as any I've seen, and the winning penalty was so soft after all the stonewallers we've been denied.

It’s possible the crappest cliche in football. Just about the only thing guaranteed is that you’ll be either up or down to some extent over a season - very rarely even.

The second most dumb cliche is that penalty shoot outs are a lottery. Such lazy punditry and completely wrong. Whichever team shows greater penalty skills will win.

I'd like to humbly disagree with your penalty shootout assertion. I agree it's not a lottery by any means, but in my opinion it's all psychological.

You can be not great at pens, but if you're not affected by the pressure you're more likely to score than someone with loads of ability who can't handle pressure well.

I'd argue being able to take a penalty under pressure is a fundamental skill of taking a penalty.

[JedMaxwell]

It’s possible the crappest cliche in football. Just about the only thing guaranteed is that you’ll be either up or down to some extent over a season - very rarely even.

The second most dumb cliche is that penalty shoot outs are a lottery. Such lazy punditry and completely wrong. Whichever team shows greater penalty skills will win.

I'd like to humbly disagree with your penalty shootout assertion. I agree it's not a lottery by any means, but in my opinion it's all psychological.

You can be not great at pens, but if you're not affected by the pressure you're more likely to score than someone with loads of ability who can't handle pressure well.

I'd argue being able to take a penalty under pressure is a fundamental skill of taking a penalty.

Totally agree, I'm thinking along the lines that some players who have good technique and ability might not fancy taking a penalty, whereas a centre-half who doesn't score loads might back himself instead.

Obviously some players are bad at pens regardless, and better players more often than not still take pens in the shootout and score, but I do think that if you don't fancy it, it kind of doesn't matter how good you are.

[Armadillo Roadkill]

I'd like to humbly disagree with your penalty shootout assertion. I agree it's not a lottery by any means, but in my opinion it's all psychological.

You can be not great at pens, but if you're not affected by the pressure you're more likely to score than someone with loads of ability who can't handle pressure well.

I'd argue being able to take a penalty under pressure is a fundamental skill of taking a penalty.

Totally agree, I'm thinking along the lines that some players who have good technique and ability might not fancy taking a penalty, whereas a centre-half who doesn't score loads might back himself instead.

Obviously some players are bad at pens regardless, and better players more often than not still take pens in the shootout and score, but I do think that if you don't fancy it, it kind of doesn't matter how good you are.

I like the way Savage stands on the spot with the ball, takes all of the so-called "mind games" from the keeper, then hands the ball to Knibbs at the last minute. I think that's very smart. They've done it twice so it's clearly planned out in advance.

[tidus_mi2]

I'd argue being able to take a penalty under pressure is a fundamental skill of taking a penalty.

Totally agree, I'm thinking along the lines that some players who have good technique and ability might not fancy taking a penalty, whereas a centre-half who doesn't score loads might back himself instead.

Obviously some players are bad at pens regardless, and better players more often than not still take pens in the shootout and score, but I do think that if you don't fancy it, it kind of doesn't matter how good you are.

I like the way Savage stands on the spot with the ball, takes all of the so-called "mind games" from the keeper, then hands the ball to Knibbs at the last minute. I think that's very smart. They've done it twice so it's clearly planned out in advance.

It's definitely clever because getting in the face of the taker has become a big part of the penalty taking process, ex-Royal Martinez is well known for it. So Savage taking it all then letting Knibbs or whoever take the ball with a clear head is simple yet brilliant at the same time.

Do other clubs do this?

[Silver Fox]

I've not seen anyone else do it but when I tongue in cheekily suggested we'd invented it on twitter someone told me we weren't alone in doing it. I do wonder if we thought about doing it years ago but haven't had the chance to test it out until the Bolton game. Also, if other teams suss it out will we see the keeper make himself look daft as he goes to get in an apparently uninvolved Knibbs' face while Charles stands on the penalty spot?

[Crusader Royal]

I've not seen anyone else do it but when I tongue in cheekily suggested we'd invented it on twitter someone told me we weren't alone in doing it. I do wonder if we thought about doing it years ago but haven't had the chance to test it out until the Bolton game. Also, if other teams suss it out will we see the keeper make himself look daft as he goes to get in an apparently uninvolved Knibbs' face while Charles stands on the penalty spot?

Trouble is it’s possible illegal.
The laws state the taker of a penalty kick must be clearly identified.
Trouble is it doesn’t say who they must be identified to or when ! It’s also not clear how they should be identified or whether you can change them once identified.
So a ref could consider that Savage had identified himself as the kicker by taking the ball and standing in a position near the spot. That would make anyone else actually taking the kick the incorrect kicker with sanction of a caution and an indirect free kick against us.
Interesting one to get a top level opinion on but you’d hope we would have run it past a ref before hand.

[JedMaxwell]

I've not seen anyone else do it but when I tongue in cheekily suggested we'd invented it on twitter someone told me we weren't alone in doing it. I do wonder if we thought about doing it years ago but haven't had the chance to test it out until the Bolton game. Also, if other teams suss it out will we see the keeper make himself look daft as he goes to get in an apparently uninvolved Knibbs' face while Charles stands on the penalty spot?

Trouble is it’s possible illegal.
The laws state the taker of a penalty kick must be clearly identified.
Trouble is it doesn’t say who they must be identified to or when ! It’s also not clear how they should be identified or whether you can change them once identified.
So a ref could consider that Savage had identified himself as the kicker by taking the ball and standing in a position near the spot. That would make anyone else actually taking the kick the incorrect kicker with sanction of a caution and an indirect free kick against us.
Interesting one to get a top level opinion on but you’d hope we would have run it past a ref before hand.

When I played youth football we used to do that corner routine where someone would place the ball down, roll it slightly then call over someone else to take it instead, who would then run in towards goal an usually in our case make the wrong decision and lose the ball.

One week, when our manager told the ref to be on the lookout for it, he unbeknownst to us told the opponents who nicked the ball from our first corner, and scored on the break. Comical.

[Silver Fox]

I've not seen anyone else do it but when I tongue in cheekily suggested we'd invented it on twitter someone told me we weren't alone in doing it. I do wonder if we thought about doing it years ago but haven't had the chance to test it out until the Bolton game. Also, if other teams suss it out will we see the keeper make himself look daft as he goes to get in an apparently uninvolved Knibbs' face while Charles stands on the penalty spot?

Trouble is it’s possible illegal.
The laws state the taker of a penalty kick must be clearly identified.
Trouble is it doesn’t say who they must be identified to or when ! It’s also not clear how they should be identified or whether you can change them once identified.
So a ref could consider that Savage had identified himself as the kicker by taking the ball and standing in a position near the spot. That would make anyone else actually taking the kick the incorrect kicker with sanction of a caution and an indirect free kick against us.
Interesting one to get a top level opinion on but you’d hope we would have run it past a ref before hand.

I'm guessing if we were breaking the law the league would have already deducted us a points or something

I'd imagine that until Chas puts the ball on the spot nobody is being identified as the taker

[Crusader Royal]

I've not seen anyone else do it but when I tongue in cheekily suggested we'd invented it on twitter someone told me we weren't alone in doing it. I do wonder if we thought about doing it years ago but haven't had the chance to test it out until the Bolton game. Also, if other teams suss it out will we see the keeper make himself look daft as he goes to get in an apparently uninvolved Knibbs' face while Charles stands on the penalty spot?

Trouble is it’s possible illegal.
The laws state the taker of a penalty kick must be clearly identified.
Trouble is it doesn’t say who they must be identified to or when ! It’s also not clear how they should be identified or whether you can change them once identified.
So a ref could consider that Savage had identified himself as the kicker by taking the ball and standing in a position near the spot. That would make anyone else actually taking the kick the incorrect kicker with sanction of a caution and an indirect free kick against us.
Interesting one to get a top level opinion on but you’d hope we would have run it past a ref before hand.

I'm guessing if we were breaking the law the league would have already deducted us a points or something

I'd imagine that until Chas puts the ball on the spot nobody is being identified as the taker

Fairly certain there has never been a points deduction for an on field infringement. The indirect free kick would be sufficient.
The point of my post was the law is really vague. There is no mention of it being related to the ball being placed on the spot and if it’s Savage placing it that’s an obvious possible way of identifying the kicker. The point of the law is to prevent a team getting an unfair advantage by having a dummy kicker to distract the keeper.

[Armadillo Roadkill]

Trouble is it’s possible illegal.
The laws state the taker of a penalty kick must be clearly identified.
Trouble is it doesn’t say who they must be identified to or when ! It’s also not clear how they should be identified or whether you can change them once identified.
So a ref could consider that Savage had identified himself as the kicker by taking the ball and standing in a position near the spot. That would make anyone else actually taking the kick the incorrect kicker with sanction of a caution and an indirect free kick against us.
Interesting one to get a top level opinion on but you’d hope we would have run it past a ref before hand.

I'm guessing if we were breaking the law the league would have already deducted us a points or something

I'd imagine that until Chas puts the ball on the spot nobody is being identified as the taker

Fairly certain there has never been a points deduction for an on field infringement. The indirect free kick would be sufficient.
The point of my post was the law is really vague. There is no mention of it being related to the ball being placed on the spot and if it’s Savage placing it that’s an obvious possible way of identifying the kicker. The point of the law is to prevent a team getting an unfair advantage by having a dummy kicker to distract the keeper.

There is a distinct moment when the penalty is ready to be taken, as indicated by the referee. Don't suppose you can change after that. But if the goalkeeper is still standing by the penalty spot, the box isn't fully vacated to the referee's satisfaction and they have taken up their place, a change of taker is OK.