Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

[Dirk Gently]

I can't see how anyone can possibly be denying what is, to me at least, blindingly obvious. By putting out a team that is experimental/younger/full of fringe players/weaker (call it what you like) we are taking the competition less seriously than we take the league.

yes we want the team selected to win, but we aren't selecting the team for the purposes of winning - players are in the team for other reasons than that they are the best players or best combination available - having a look at them giving them experience, keeping them fit - whatever it may be.

Therefore we consider those reasons for picking players to be more important than selecting a team to win the match. And just because other teams also do it doesn't make it right, acceptable or something that I want my team to do.

In January we're likely to hear about how the League Cup is on its last legs through just this sort of treatment by clubs - what price the FA Cup in the future?

[Hoop Blah]

The second half is entirely relevant.

The original article accuses us of devaluing it. Our selection policy hasn;t devalued it, there are many more significant reasons.

Our selection policy has been rather more wide ranging than the change of a single player.

The more clubs which treat the cup as a second class competition by playing second choice players, the more the competition is devalued. We are one of those clubs. No one sensible would say that this is the only cause, or that it operates in isolation from other causes, but it is clearly of significance because the best way a club has of showing that it considers a competition to be serious is the team chosen for matches in that competiton.

Totally agree Baines.

If we played our strongest side (maybe with the odd squad player thrown in where necessary) we'd have a better chance of winning games. We might even stand a chance of winning it or getting to the latter stages. On the other hand we might suffer a cup shock and face the embarrassment for a couple of days.

A knock on effect would probably be that other clubs would know we'd be putting out a stronger side. If they too wanted to progress then they'd probably feel they needed to put out a stronger side than they would against our reserves. The effect would be a competition where teams treat it more like a first team fixture and a chance for glory and less of a glorified Reserve team and a nuisance on the fixture list.

We're not the only culprits of course, but we have accept that we dont help the situation.

[SpaceCruiser]

I think he would have been better off having a go at Pompey for fielding a weakened side who performed badly in a crucial league game becasue they considered the cup was more important. That was totally against the spirit of the game and close to being against the rules as well.

That is a very good point.

What if the first team had nothing to play for at the end of the season, e.g. midtable with 5 or 6 games to go and out of all cups and the reserve team were still in a cup designed for reserve teams, do the club play their best players in that reserve cup in an effort to win it? What if the other clubs complain that they are playing their best players?

[Archie's penalty]

I can't see how anyone can possibly be denying what is, to me at least, blindingly obvious. By putting out a team that is experimental/younger/full of fringe players/weaker (call it what you like) we are taking the competition less seriously than we take the league.

yes we want the team selected to win, but we aren't selecting the team for the purposes of winning - players are in the team for other reasons than that they are the best players or best combination available - having a look at them giving them experience, keeping them fit - whatever it may be.

Therefore we consider those reasons for picking players to be more important than selecting a team to win the match. And just because other teams also do it doesn't make it right, acceptable or something that I want my team to do.

In January we're likely to hear about how the League Cup is on its last legs through just this sort of treatment by clubs - what price the FA Cup in the future?

I understand Dirk but I don't know what can be done about it. It's just the nature of the game these days.

The only thing I can think of would be to give strict fines if teams dropped first-team players but what with the squad system in operation how would this be enforced? And would the penalties deter clubs?

The only way it could change is with a complete financial meltdown in the footballing world. Something which might happen the way things are going. For the time being I'm happy for Coppell to use the cup to experiment a bit. At least the way he does it is quite clever and aims at squad integration. Some clubs just put in players and say it's about squad integration. I trust Coppell to make these decisions, however irritating they may be.

[Dirk Gently]

I know that The FA would absolutely love to bring charges against a team for fielding a weakened team in the cup, except that it's a charge that is almost impossible to make stick, for all the reasons given in this thread.

[Archie's penalty]

I know that The FA would absolutely love to bring charges against a team for fielding a weakened team in the cup, except that it's a charge that is almost impossible to make stick, for all the reasons given in this thread.

But if the FA made a resolute stand then maybe they could achieve something. As it is they are just letting the cup slide into anonymity (for clubs in the top two English leagues anyway).

[Ian Royal]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

[Hoop Blah]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

So we should all give up?

[Dirk Gently]

I know that The FA would absolutely love to bring charges against a team for fielding a weakened team in the cup, except that it's a charge that is almost impossible to make stick, for all the reasons given in this thread.

But if the FA made a resolute stand then maybe they could achieve something. As it is they are just letting the cup slide into anonymity (for clubs in the top two English leagues anyway).

It's definitely not by choice. But who do they charge? Taking us as an example 2 years ago, when half of the players we brought in were internationals and half the "regulars" were said to be nursing knocks how could the FA make any charges stand up in court?

[SpaceCruiser]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

And this year it could be possible that the League Cup will be won by a team outside of the top 4. If Man Utd can be beaten, that is.

[Franchise FC]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

So, (assuming your information is correct and that it includes 2000), excluding the Premier League, less than one quarter of the winners have been outside the top 4, no-one has done it twice, and Pompey are the only non big 4 winners of what is considered to be the main cup competition.

That seems to rule out 'play your best team because there's a chance of winning it'

[Franchise FC]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

So we should all give up?

It's all about what the club want from the game.

A lower league team may well want the cup run to generate some income
A team not competing for promotion/title may well want a cup run to generate some interest
Some teams may want to blood youngsters/reserves

What's the problem ?

In a few years some sort of European League will take over from the PL and then we'll be saying that the reserves playing in the PL games are a disgrace

[Archie's penalty]

I know that The FA would absolutely love to bring charges against a team for fielding a weakened team in the cup, except that it's a charge that is almost impossible to make stick, for all the reasons given in this thread.

But if the FA made a resolute stand then maybe they could achieve something. As it is they are just letting the cup slide into anonymity (for clubs in the top two English leagues anyway).

It's definitely not by choice. But who do they charge? Taking us as an example 2 years ago, when half of the players we brought in were internationals and half the "regulars" were said to be nursing knocks how could the FA make any charges stand up in court?

Completely agree. I think we just have to grin and bear it unfortunately and hope as many teams as possible care about the competition.

[Hoop Blah]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

So, (assuming your information is correct and that it includes 2000), excluding the Premier League, less than one quarter of the winners have been outside the top 4, no-one has done it twice, and Pompey are the only non big 4 winners of what is considered to be the main cup competition.

That seems to rule out 'play your best team because there's a chance of winning it'

Although as most teams aren't playing their best teams it might actually be an arguement for giving it more of a go!

The way the game is these days the resources of the top 4 means that the gap is a little bigger and so they're more likely to win all the silverwear but I don't think it's much worse now than it was in say the '80s.

I've not looked at the stats but between them Liverpool and Arsenal must of won nearly all the League Cups, and the FA cup only went out the Big 5/6 (as it back then) a few of times, Coventry, West Ham and Winbledon (??).

The game has changed a bit, but I still dont think it justifies the attitude we and a lot of other clubs have when it comes to the Cup competititons.

[Hoop Blah]

So we should all give up?

It's all about what the club want from the game.

A lower league team may well want the cup run to generate some income
A team not competing for promotion/title may well want a cup run to generate some interest
Some teams may want to blood youngsters/reserves

What's the problem ?

In a few years some sort of European League will take over from the PL and then we'll be saying that the reserves playing in the PL games are a disgrace

You're right it is all about what the clubs want from it. The problem is that I want my club, and in fact all clubs really, to want to go out to win every game and every compeition they enter. Un realistic and romantic yes, but that's what sport should be.

[Dirk Gently]

Just answering my own question:

Since 2000 4 teams outside the "big" 4 have won an English competition.

Pompey - FA Cup
Spurs - League Cup
'Boro - League Cup
Blackburn - League Cup

So we should all give up?

It's all about what the club want from the game.

A lower league team may well want the cup run to generate some income
A team not competing for promotion/title may well want a cup run to generate some interest
Some teams may want to blood youngsters/reserves

What's the problem ?

Fair enough - but some of those things are incompatible with expecting supporters to pay out good money to support a team chosen with those aims in mind.

[Franchise FC]

So we should all give up?

It's all about what the club want from the game.

A lower league team may well want the cup run to generate some income
A team not competing for promotion/title may well want a cup run to generate some interest
Some teams may want to blood youngsters/reserves

What's the problem ?

In a few years some sort of European League will take over from the PL and then we'll be saying that the reserves playing in the PL games are a disgrace

You're right it is all about what the clubs want from it. The problem is that I want my club, and in fact all clubs really, to want to go out to win every game and every compeition they enter. Un realistic and romantic yes, but that's what sport should be.

But we'd be playing in breeches, with real caps and we'd be singing 'What a jolly good shot, sir'
Sadly, life has moved on and romance is nearly dead.

[Ian Royal]

We accept the chance of us winning it are astronomically low, and try and get as far as possible without impacting negatively on the league. Just has always been the case for most clubs.

The lower down you go the more important it becomes, to the extent it may become a higher priority than the league for midtable clubs in League 1 and below due to the revenue it can supply and the interest in attracting fans to a game who may then become hooked on your team.

We've often reduced prices or put deals on for cup games iirc and as a supporter, I find the prospect of watching a blend of youth and experience play, just as exciting as watching the normal regulars play.

Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to make Cardiff much as I'd like to and originally intended to, because I have family & friends still to see for Xmas, a funeral to go to and Watford to go to. Plus I didn't fancy going to Cardiff on my tod.

[Franchise FC]

It's all about what the club want from the game.

A lower league team may well want the cup run to generate some income
A team not competing for promotion/title may well want a cup run to generate some interest
Some teams may want to blood youngsters/reserves

What's the problem ?

Fair enough - but some of those things are incompatible with expecting supporters to pay out good money to support a team chosen with those aims in mind.

Do you know what the selection policy is going to be for the cup games ?
Do you still buy a ticket ?

It's entirely your choice so you can hardly complain.

If there was little warning of the impending team changes, I'd agree that the supporters deserve more, but at least the club are up front about what they are about to do.

[Franchise FC]

We accept the chance of us winning it are astronomically low, and try and get as far as possible without impacting negatively on the league. Just has always been the case for most clubs.

The lower down you go the more important it becomes, to the extent it may become a higher priority than the league for midtable clubs in League 1 and below due to the revenue it can supply and the interest in attracting fans to a game who may then become hooked on your team.

We've often reduced prices or put deals on for cup games iirc and as a supporter, I find the prospect of watching a blend of youth and experience play, just as exciting as watching the normal regulars play.

Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to make Cardiff much as I'd like to and originally intended to, because I have family & friends still to see for Xmas, a funeral to go to and Watford to go to. Plus I didn't fancy going to Cardiff on my tod.

There's been some negativity here about team selection, but even I can't believe you'd be there on your own !!