Brian: The right decision?

[winchester_royal]

Yep, too often over the last 3 years we've gone for ST stop-gaps rather than LT solutions. I don't blame Bri for that, given his budget constraints, but just like he takes the credit for the short-term upturn I'm afraid he also has to take the flak for the lack of foresight.

He did a gr8 job for us for the most part though, and would probably have done a fine job next year, he just never showed himself to be capable of really building a team in the way Coppell did back in 05/06

Every body bangs on like there is a long term solution. How do you know how a player is going to play in three years time 4fs. I couldn't really tell you whats going to happen next week with any accuracy. I'm fully behind Adkins and pretty bullish about next year but lets wait and see

Shirley there is a massive element of luck with a number of youth team players coming through at the same time. I can't think of any club that has consistently done this (and then managed to hang onto them if they're lower league). Same at international level

When you sign a player like Roberts, who has had injury issues in the past and is 34 years old, you can just about guarantee that he won't be playing to a suitable standard 2/3 years later. When you sign players that have been on what appears to be an age-rel8d decline in the previous years like Griffin or Harte, it's likely that such a decline will continue over time.

Like I said, I don't blame him because older players come cheaper and have plenty of experience. However, given that our promotion was mainly down to the exploits of Roberts/Harte/Gorkss, and given that Brian (quite rightly) took lots of plaudits for said promotion, it can only be right that he also takes the criticism when we see the negative side of such a transfer policy.

[maffff]

Every body bangs on like there is a long term solution. How do you know how a player is going to play in three years time 4fs.

A long term solution tends to be a player that can be a key part of the side in the division and help consolidating in the league above for the next say, 4 years.

If you say players of 26 or below could give us 4 decent years with the team that means in our first team the following:

McCarthy, Gunter, Morrison, Mariappa, Karacan, Akpan, Carriço, Guthrie, McCleary, Robson-Kanu, Blackman and Le Fondre.

could realistically be long term solutions for their positions / in the squad, before you look at youth players and additions to the squad. Federici too as goalkeepers generally tend to play later than other positions. And on paper that is the core of a very good Championship side.

They're all certainly adequate for the level we are at next season and all continuing to develop with the side if they continue to be stretched.

Some have much more potential than others of course and we can keep McCarthy you can see him being the most viable 'long term solution' and potential wise the equivalent of Lallana or Schneiderlin when Saints were a League One team where they were being raved about as being good for the Premier League back then.

How do you know? There are never guarantees. You could find that one of them has a Chris Casper-esque career ending injury on the opening day next season. But it's about giving yourself the best opportunity to consolidate and progress - or Build, Evolve and Succeed .

[andrew1957]

I still find this whole episode confusing. None of us know the reason Brian was sacked and that sacking still seems very unfair to me. Nor do we know what the aim of the sacking was.

Reasons for sacking could be:
a/ Anton thought a change of manager would help us survive in PL
b/ Anton thought Brian had messed up in transfer market
c/ poor results – knee jerk reaction
d/ Brian a poor manager tactically

Purpose of doing it so late in season:
a/ hope of survival
b/ thinking of next season
c/ giving more time to shape the team for next season

Taking these issues in turn. Only a deluded owner would think that making the change would improve our survival chances. In fact changing the style so late in the season has proved a disaster.

Brian’s last 8 games – Won 3 Drawn 1 Lost 4 – For 12 Against 16

Adkins first 8 games – Won 1 – Drawn 2 Lost 5 – For 8 Against 16

I think we can be almost certain that we would have ended the season with more points had we retained Brian as manager.

So the only reason for sacking him that makes sense is his failure in the transfer market. Well did he fail? Many of last summer’s purchases are now first choices – Mariappa, Guthrie, McCleary, Pog, Kelly and Gunter. The problem was not the players that we bought but the fact that the existing squad was overall so poor and had overachieved so much. So was Brain to blame - or did he indeed spend all that he was given. If the latter then the owner is more to blame.

Then we have tactics. Well to me Brian proved the master of getting the best out of a bad lot. I am sure he is more than capable of playing a passing style, but our squad were not – as proved in the last 8 games. So he made the best of what he had.

Finally the only other reason is that Anton did not trust Brian to rebuild for next season. Well again from his record of transfer dealing – which has largely been very good I would say that is very unfair. Until a year ago Brain worked within JM’s strict budget limits and many players added would not be added today under the new regime. There were short term buys that met our needs then such as Gorkks and Leigertwood who were excellent at Championship level but are not PL. What choice did Brian have though? Surely the object was to win games and he brought in players that did that effectively.

Don’t get me wrong I will support Adkins next season and want him to succeed but I will also be looking out for Leeds results and it will be interesting to see whether Reading FC play in the PL before Brian McDermott manages there again.

[winchester_royal]

You clearly haven't bothered reading this thread before writing that post have you Andrew?

[maffff]

In fact changing the style so late in the season has proved a disaster.

Brian’s last 8 games – Won 3 Drawn 1 Lost 4 – For 12 Against 16

Adkins first 8 games – Won 1 – Drawn 2 Lost 5 – For 8 Against 16

Brians last 8 games
Newcastle (W) Chelsea (D), Sunderland (W) Stoke (L), Wigan (L), Everton (L), Aston Villa (L), Man U (L)

Nigels last 8 games
Arsenal (L), Southampton (L), Liverpool (D), Norwich (L), QPR (D), Fulham (W), Man City (L), West Ham (L).

Are those matches directly comparable?

So the only reason for sacking him that makes sense is his failure in the transfer market. Well did he fail? Many of last summer’s purchases are now first choices – Mariappa, Guthrie, McCleary, Pog, Kelly and Gunter. The problem was not the players that we bought but the fact that the existing squad was overall so poor and had overachieved so much. So was Brain to blame - or did he indeed spend all that he was given. If the latter then the owner is more to blame.

Then we have tactics. Well to me Brian proved the master of getting the best out of a bad lot. I am sure he is more than capable of playing a passing style, but our squad were not – as proved in the last 8 games. So he made the best of what he had.

And Brian constructed this squad over three seasons. Therefore he has to take the blame for the base of the squad not being good enough in the first place, let alone how attempt at consolidating it this year - because of how he constructed it there was too much to do once we went up.

[sandman]

Unexpectedly went up thanks to his good work. Your best buddy Anton said we were up sooner than planned and guess who that was down to? They weren't ready because he overachieved. Zingarevich is the one who lost his nerve.

[winchester_royal]

Not to mention the fact that players like Gunter and Guthrie were largely ignored by McD, and have improved since NA came in so using them as an example of McD's successes in the transfer market is daft to say the least.

I can understand why some still believe McD deserved to stay another 6 months, but there can surely be no argument for claiming the decision to get rid of him was illogical?

[winchester_royal]

Unexpectedly went up thanks to his good work.

Is it that unexpected for a team that had finished in the play-offs in 2 of the previous 3 seasons to get promoted?

[andrew1957]

Brians last 8 games
West Brom (W) Newcastle (W) Chelsea (D), Sunderland (W) Stoke (L), Wigan (L), Everton (L), Aston Villa (L)

Nigels last 8 games
Arsenal (L), Southampton (L), Liverpool (D), Norwich (L), QPR (D), Fulham (W), Man City (L), West Ham (L).

Corrected for you. Brian was not in charge for Man United Away.

I would say there is little to choose between those groups in terms of difficulty.

[andrew1957]

Unexpectedly went up thanks to his good work. Your best buddy Anton said we were up sooner than planned and guess who that was down to? They weren't ready because he overachieved. Zingarevich is the one who lost his nerve.

Sadly that is about spot on IMO. Brain took the bullet for Anton's mistakes.

[winchester_royal]

Unexpectedly went up thanks to his good work. Your best buddy Anton said we were up sooner than planned and guess who that was down to? They weren't ready because he overachieved. Zingarevich is the one who lost his nerve.

Sadly that is about spot on IMO. Brain took the bullet for Anton's mistakes.

You have no idea what went on in terms of transfer policy so this^ is completely unfounded. Cypry, who has shown himself to be more than reliable on here, tells a different tale.

[maffff]

Brians last 8 games
West Brom (W) Newcastle (W) Chelsea (D), Sunderland (W) Stoke (L), Wigan (L), Everton (L), Aston Villa (L)

Nigels last 8 games
Arsenal (L), Southampton (L), Liverpool (D), Norwich (L), QPR (D), Fulham (W), Man City (L), West Ham (L).

Corrected for you. Brian was not in charge for Man United Away.

I would say there is little to choose between those groups in terms of difficulty.

Ah yeah, course.

West Brom - they lost that more than we won it.
Newcastle - same.
Chelsea - same. (what a run that was)

Sunderland was the only game where we looked like a Premier League team there.

[andrew1957]

Unexpectedly went up thanks to his good work. Your best buddy Anton said we were up sooner than planned and guess who that was down to? They weren't ready because he overachieved. Zingarevich is the one who lost his nerve.

Sadly that is about spot on IMO. Brain took the bullet for Anton's mistakes.

You have no idea what went on in terms of transfer policy so this^ is completely unfounded. Cypry, who has shown himself to be more than reliable on here, tells a different tale.

err so I am meant to believe that Brian was offered millions to buy players and yet stubbornly refused to do so - instead looking for freebies - or do I believe him when he repeatedly said "I spent everything I was given". I doubt any football manager has ever refused to spend his budget.

[winchester_royal]

And of course, we've already talked about how that sample is ridiculously skewed in Brian's favour.

[creative_username_1]

Every body bangs on like there is a long term solution. How do you know how a player is going to play in three years time 4fs.

A long term solution tends to be a player that can be a key part of the side in the division and help consolidating in the league above for the next say, 4 years.

If you say players of 26 or below could give us 4 decent years with the team that means in our first team the following:

McCarthy, Gunter, Morrison, Mariappa, Karacan, Akpan, Carriço, Guthrie, McCleary, Robson-Kanu, Blackman and Le Fondre.

could realistically be long term solutions for their positions / in the squad, before you look at youth players and additions to the squad. Federici too as goalkeepers generally tend to play later than other positions. And on paper that is the core of a very good Championship side.

They're all certainly adequate for the level we are at next season and all continuing to develop with the side if they continue to be stretched.

Some have much more potential than others of course and we can keep McCarthy you can see him being the most viable 'long term solution' and potential wise the equivalent of Lallana or Schneiderlin when Saints were a League One team where they were being raved about as being good for the Premier League back then.

How do you know? There are never guarantees. You could find that one of them has a Chris Casper-esque career ending injury on the opening day next season. But it's about giving yourself the best opportunity to consolidate and progress - or Build, Evolve and Succeed .

IT SOUNDS EASY WHEN YOU WRITE (sorry caps lock) it down but as you go on to say is harder to actually do. Injury, fall-outs, family matters, loss of form, gain of form, being bought by other clubs, fan pressure, chairman pressure, investor pressure and a billion other variables (beachballs, lasagne) etc etc

[winchester_royal]

Of course, but I imagine if you ran a regression of player form on all those variables you'd find the coefficient related to age to be one of the larger and more significant.

[andrew1957]

Brians last 8 games
West Brom (W) Newcastle (W) Chelsea (D), Sunderland (W) Stoke (L), Wigan (L), Everton (L), Aston Villa (L)

Nigels last 8 games
Arsenal (L), Southampton (L), Liverpool (D), Norwich (L), QPR (D), Fulham (W), Man City (L), West Ham (L).

Corrected for you. Brian was not in charge for Man United Away.

I would say there is little to choose between those groups in terms of difficulty.

Ah yeah, course.

West Brom - they lost that more than we won it.
Newcastle - same.
Chelsea - same. (what a run that was)

Sunderland was the only game where we looked like a Premier League team there.

Or do you prefer being completely outclassed by Arsenal, Southampton, Liverpool (very lucky draw thank to McCarthy), Norwich, Man City and West Ham. QPR were just awful and Fulham did not turn up.

[winchester_royal]

Andrew, by all means have an opinion, but stop making things up.

[Esteban]

I still find this whole episode confusing. None of us know the reason Brian was sacked and that sacking still seems very unfair to me. Nor do we know what the aim of the sacking was.

Reasons for sacking could be:
a/ Anton thought a change of manager would help us survive in PL
b/ Anton thought Brian had messed up in transfer market
c/ poor results – knee jerk reaction
d/ Brian a poor manager tactically

Purpose of doing it so late in season:
a/ hope of survival
b/ thinking of next season
c/ giving more time to shape the team for next season

Taking these issues in turn. Only a deluded owner would think that making the change would improve our survival chances. In fact changing the style so late in the season has proved a disaster.

Brian’s last 8 games – Won 3 Drawn 1 Lost 4 – For 12 Against 16

Adkins first 8 games – Won 1 – Drawn 2 Lost 5 – For 8 Against 16

I think we can be almost certain that we would have ended the season with more points had we retained Brian as manager.

So the only reason for sacking him that makes sense is his failure in the transfer market. Well did he fail? Many of last summer’s purchases are now first choices – Mariappa, Guthrie, McCleary, Pog, Kelly and Gunter. The problem was not the players that we bought but the fact that the existing squad was overall so poor and had overachieved so much. So was Brain to blame - or did he indeed spend all that he was given. If the latter then the owner is more to blame.

Then we have tactics. Well to me Brian proved the master of getting the best out of a bad lot. I am sure he is more than capable of playing a passing style, but our squad were not – as proved in the last 8 games. So he made the best of what he had.

Finally the only other reason is that Anton did not trust Brian to rebuild for next season. Well again from his record of transfer dealing – which has largely been very good I would say that is very unfair. Until a year ago Brain worked within JM’s strict budget limits and many players added would not be added today under the new regime. There were short term buys that met our needs then such as Gorkks and Leigertwood who were excellent at Championship level but are not PL. What choice did Brian have though? Surely the object was to win games and he brought in players that did that effectively.

Don’t get me wrong I will support Adkins next season and want him to succeed but I will also be looking out for Leeds results and it will be interesting to see whether Reading FC play in the PL before Brian McDermott manages there again.

As with any sacking, it comes down to results and the owners' trust in that manager to get it right. The results were poor (McDermott did win 3 of his last 8, but the in the games that really counted against Villa and Wigan, we got comprehensively demolished and he lost the fans in a big way) and I think Anton's trust in him finally broke.

I still think that McDermott was treated harshly and had earned the right to have another crack at getting us back up next season. But if Anton felt that Poyet or Adkins were the right fit and needed to move quickly to secure their services, then coupled with poor results in key games and the fact that our fans had just about had enough of him, it made sacking him an easier action to justify to his board members.

And I disagree that McDermott took a bullet for Zingarevich. Whilst AZ said himself that it was a collective decision not to strengthen further in the summer, he also said that we din't spend enough in January. The deals for Ince and Sigurdsson that fell through were, as I understand it, due to Ince not wanting to move to us and Spurs' failure to sign Damiao on deadline day. You can throw as much money as you want at clubs, but sometimes they don't sell. Did we have other targets lined up? Conversely, we signed Akpan, Carrico, Kelly and Blackman, only one of which had any PL experience, one was crocked and the other two were punts we hoped would go well. If Brian was strapped for cash, then why spunk money away on three players that have never played PL football? Of the signings that McDermott did make in the summer and January, he ended up replacing one (Gunter, £2.5m) and the others just didn't work out/he rarely played.

I'm a big fan of McDermott, but it's not hard to build a case against him, if that's your agenda.

[melonhead]

It's not the results so much as the attitude and the way things were done. .

In winning the Championship we were sold the great con-trick of how great the strength, togetherness and unity of the squad was.

Then at the start of the season we had a player and the manager publicly disagreeing over whether the player was fit enough to play, and the player's girlfriend tweeting about disloyalty; we later had a player refusing to travel to an away because "his head wasn't in the right place", and all the while one player (brought in by the owner's personal efforts alone) was earning a lot more than everyone else whilst a promising young defender (we were shipping goals at the time) was in visible contract dispute with the club and not playing - but the club's publicity machine kept insisting his non-selection was nothing to do with this.

That all smacks of a manager who'd lost control of his fragmented squad, and who couldn't inspire them or manage them to meet the heightened and corrupting demands of the Premier League.. At the same time, he persisted in playing 4-4-2 for long after it was thoroughly discredited, and just appeared to have no Plan B (the player who'd been bought to provide a Plan B wasn't playing)!

As a result, some of the performances were abject. It's all very well being beaten by Aston Villa, Southampton and Sunderland if you compete, but for those three matches, at a crucial point of the season and against potential relegation contenders were just didn't turn up. Those three games were the most gutless and spineless performances I've seen from a Reading team in 37 years - we offered absolutely nothing. No ideas, no desire, no creativity and no fight - just going through the motions of playing without contributing anything positive.

If McDermott had gone then, in early December I'd not have been surprised or disappointed, because he clearly didn't have the ability to lift, inspire or motivate his players (as Wigan and Villa at home later proved) - and perhaps his successor would have had the chance to rescue things in the January window. (But, of course, it wouldn't have been Adkins as he wasn't available then.....)

then he suddenly rediscovered the ability to motivate and direct a team during january, but that went again in feb?