No striker on the horizon

[prostak]

Much like when Pardew first started using 3 in the middle of the park, I don't think we have strong enough options in central midfield to go 4-4-2, especially with the number of teams that play with the extra midfielder these days.

Its a fair point but it also means we are being dictated to by other teams formations.

But that's what happens in football. Presumably you watched England at the World Cup - didn't the Germany game show you enough why 4-4-2 is unviable against the modern 4-2-3-1? Plus, given the respective talent we have in midfield and attack, I'd tend toward using more of the former too...

[Avon Royal]

Overall though it goes back to the point of why do so many Reading fans (judging by the team board at least) seem to think an average-sized club being average in this division is a sign of failure?

Let's ask Wigan fans shall we?

Or Blackpool.

Size or history should have no bearing on ambition.

[PEARCEY]

The only way SJM will put his hand in his pocket is if there is real danger of relegation. If not, the cheques book stays firmly shut and the club stands on its own two feet. Kiss promotion away because it won't happen by design. The 2 years we were there he shit himself.

Accept mediocrity because that is what is on offer. Win a few, draw a few, lose a few. We may as well change the name of the club to Barnsley.

Yes I think thats pretty accurate of where we are and likely to remain.

The difference is that Barnsley get crowds of about 12000. The odds are we still have a few players on salaries above what they should be for their ability in this league, but we should have a financial edge over them in the long run.


Overall though it goes back to the point of why do so many Reading fans (judging by the team board at least) seem to think an average-sized club being average in this division is a sign of failure?

There is a downward trend season by season at Reading FC...season by season since 2007 which may well continue this season. Yes we are an average sized club and where we currently are is about right but having tasted a bit of success we want more of it. We are no different to fans of other clubs. On the whole I'd say we are more tolerant than most. I doubt there are many clubs who have spent so little on incoming transfers against what we have received for player sales over the past two years. Its therefore not surprising fans will start to question whether the club has any ambition other than to stay solvent.

[PEARCEY]

Much like when Pardew first started using 3 in the middle of the park, I don't think we have strong enough options in central midfield to go 4-4-2, especially with the number of teams that play with the extra midfielder these days.

Its a fair point but it also means we are being dictated to by other teams formations.

But that's what happens in football. Presumably you watched England at the World Cup - didn't the Germany game show you enough why 4-4-2 is unviable against the modern 4-2-3-1? Plus, given the respective talent we have in midfield and attack, I'd tend toward using more of the former too...

Sure but now that Siggy has gone we don't have a player of his quailty to make up the "3"....so we have lost some of our attacking edge by replacing him with a more defensive minded midfielder. I can also only repeat that when we played two strikers at home in the second-half of last season we won every time. Let other clubs look at how we are set up rather than the other way around. Especially at home.

[Wimb]

Hardly a massive phase of decline though is it? Relegation from the top flight followed by back to back top 10 seasons in the Championship is hardly cause for panic. The nature of the Premier League and football finances mean that if you fail to bounce back within your parachute payment cycle then you do need a significant rebuilding phase in order to get back up again. I struggle to think of many teams who have been in the PL and then returned outside of that 2 year period. Ipswich, QPR, Norwich, Palace, Southampton, Leeds, Barnsley, Swindon, Forest, Charlton, Coventry etc have all shown that fact.

As the likes of The Rev so rightly point out we are not a big club and we have a chairman who wants us to be a football club that financially supports itself. You can whinge, piss and moan all you like but the fact is that unless the club is making a profit then it's totally up to the Chairman how much of his OWN money he decides to put in or not. If the manager thinks we need to strengthen then it's been made clear there are now funds available to do so and MacD has shown in the past how he has gone out and got the right player at the right time (Kiz, Griff etc) Right now the manager has decided that he's going to show faith in what we have at the club and until we really start to struggle I think it's fair to back him.

Also can we stop being so naive as to just look at transfer fees in and out of the club as a measure of how much money we have available. Even a player on 10k a week takes up £500k+ a year and looking at the size of squad we've had for the last 3 seasons in the Championship those transfer fees we've received have no doubt dissapeared quickly. I thought we'd moved past this whole 'where's the money gone' bs that we had to put up with last season

I'm quite happy we've got a decent squad this year with cover at just about every position and a squad full of players who have been successful at this level or higher. Our first XI on their day matches up with just about any other team in this division and as a fan that's what we should be expecting. Of course we WANT more and you do have to grit your teeth when a Gylfi or a Doyle is sold, but then you have to think how you felt when an unknown Irishman from Cork was given a run in the team, or a midfielder who's highest league experience was at Crewe was slotted into the team. Those two players cost the club under £100k while Emerse Fae, Cisse and Marek cost a combined £5 million and were largely failures. Spending money isn't everything, a good manager can BUILD a side and that's what Brian seems to be doing. It might take another season or two but he deserves that chance.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Great post by Mr Pearce. Getting on you high hourse doesn't make u a better fan.

U go back and read the Sig thread and everyone defending the sale does so by saying we will see that money reinvested, then when that doesn't happen we will sign players on loan and when that doesn't happen we don't need anyone. U can't keep moving the goal posts and still take a holier than though attidude.

Yeah there is some utter bollox spouted about JM on here and that deserves to be shot down. Don't dismiss people who feel different to urself. Espcially when u look at how we ended up here.

Wimb makes some good points, but there was still a lot of investment in the team that took us up. There were years of investing and improving that got us there.

What's gonna happen next summer?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

U go back and read the Sig thread and everyone defending the sale does so by saying we will see that money reinvested, then when that doesn't happen we will sign players on loan and when that doesn't happen we don't need anyone. U can't keep moving the goal posts and still take a holier than though attidude.

One problem is the assumption that we didn't spend any of Sig's transfer fee because McD wasn't allowed to. I think the timing of it just made it very difficult.

And beyond the like of Billy Davies, very few managers ever come out and say their squad isn't good enough.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

The Sig deal didn't come out of the blue and they most have known what they were getting and what they could spend. I really can't believe that Lee Hendries on trial was the best we could do.

I'm not trying to say this money shuld be reinvested regadless. I appriciate the situation. But the longer it goes on the worse we will get. We're gonna lose Kebe and replace him with Antonio, Mills will go and not be replaced. If Jake Taylor comes in and does well he'll go.

At the end of last season we had a squad that with a SMAlLL amount of investment could have taken us up. What sort of squad will we start next season with?

I appriciate there is a lot of bollox bout JM and his money intrest on here. But the club isn't moving in the right direction. If u can accept that then fine, but I think fans are allowed to question it.

As long as they don't spout bollox about JM!!

Just ignore them...

[Wimb]

Great post by Mr Pearce. Getting on you high hourse doesn't make u a better fan.

U go back and read the Sig thread and everyone defending the sale does so by saying we will see that money reinvested, then when that doesn't happen we will sign players on loan and when that doesn't happen we don't need anyone. U can't keep moving the goal posts and still take a holier than though attidude.

Yeah there is some utter bollox spouted about JM on here and that deserves to be shot down. Don't dismiss people who feel different to urself. Espcially when u look at how we ended up here.

Wimb makes some good points, but there was still a lot of investment in the team that took us up. There were years of investing and improving that got us there.

What's gonna happen next summer?

I see your point and agree that some (including myself) are probably too dismissive of negative comments, it's just the ones made without rationale that annoy me to the point of posting

I totally agree about the investment made in that 05-07 team but I chose to look at this team as a work in progress rather then comparing it to the end product that saw us reach 8th in the PL. Pardew/Coppell gradually moulded that team with bits of investment over a 5 year period and it's going to probably take a similar time period for Brian to do the same.

This was the team who played Wolves in the Play-offs in 2002/2003
Hahnemann, Williams, Brown, Shorey, Murty, Hughes, Harper, Henderson (Cureton 84), Sidwell, Forster (Tyson 61 (sent off 90)), Chadwick (Newman 72).

Over the next three years Sonko, Ivar, Convey, Little, Kitson, Doyle, Lita and Hunt were all added at a combined cost of around £2.5 million and we saw the end result. Even the most anti-Madejski supporter would concede we'll be likely to spend around that much in a 3 year period.

Today, I'd suggest Feds, Mills, Karacan/Tabb, Kebe and Hunt/Long could all play a significant role three years from now and form the core of a promotion calibre side. Of course we'd need some players to kick on like Feds and Jem but there were the same doubts over the likes of Harper back then. As you point out good teams don't happen overnight and patience is going to be crucial if we want to see the same results happen again.

[under the tin]

Quote TB:
“The only way SJM will put his hand in his pocket is if there is real danger of relegation. If not, the cheques book stays firmly shut and the club stands on its own two feet. Kiss promotion away because it won't happen by design. The 2 years we were there he shit himself.”

I completely agree. The only snag is if too little cash is put in, too late. Inbound transfers are a lottery. This is the tightest league in Britain. Ask the fans of Leeds and Norwich, both bigger, better supported, better funded clubs than ours is.

Quote The Rev:
“Overall though it goes back to the point of why do so many Reading fans (judging by the team board at least) seem to think an average-sized club being average in this division is a sign of failure?”

I think that those who consider it a failure are mainly latter day fans seduced by the bright lights of the Premiership.
I also think that there is a body of fans (myself included) that couldn't care less about the Prem, and think that the Championship is about the right level for the club right now.
Let's face it: the 106 team was built on the cheap. Had we not got big incoming fees derived from the sale of that team, and now, Gylfi, it begs the question as to how close we were/are to being another Palace or Southampton.

The trick is to stay in this division.
The the bone of contention is:

Do you think that the policy of self sufficiency in the silly world of competitive football, where clubs are singing from different financial hymn sheets is actually achievable, and will result in a stable, mid table Championship Reading Football club?

I'm labelled a mong/troll/spasmo because I think that the policy is flawed.
Managing fans' expectations is one thing, placating the professional aspirations of competitive pro sportsmen is another.
Floyd says (on another thread) that we will probably lose the services of Mr. Kebe come January. I can foresee that, too. He will go somewhere where success on the pitch trumps the Ace of fiscal austerity off it. No-one can honestly blame him. He's looking after his career, not an employer's balance sheet.
The trouble with the departure of flair players like him is what it does to the mindset of the remaining players. If they can see a reduction in the quality of the squad, they know it will have a direct effect on their own personal ambitions, and the better remaining players ultimately look for a move elsewhere. The journeymen aren't worried, they are drawing a wage. The result is a slow slide into mediocrity, culminating in the club playing at a lower level.

I have my doubts as to whether self sufficiency is possible at all: I am, however, convinced that it is impossible for RFC to achieve it at League 1 level, in its current form.
It's all very well asking how much SJM should put in every year, but to me, it is absolutely critical that the club remains competitive in order to remain at this level.
If we “go with what we've got”, then find ourselves in trouble, maybe money could be suddenly found to bolster the side. To me, that is a high risk strategy. If too little is done, too late, then it will ultimately cost the chairman a whole bunch more.
The “moaners” could well “pish off and support Man Citeh”, but there will be no moral high ground to take. Everyone connected with the club loses.
Some of us think that there is a hole in the boat, others refuse to even accept the possibility that there might be.

[RoyalBlue]

Some of us think that there is a hole in the boat, others refuse to even accept the possibility that there might be.

But why would they be bothered to even contemplate that when the Chairman walks on water?!

Just a shame that he's not so smart when it comes to loaves and fishes!

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I'm not trying to say this money shuld be reinvested regadless. I appriciate the situation. But the longer it goes on the worse we will get. We're gonna lose Kebe and replace him with Antonio, Mills will go and not be replaced. If Jake Taylor comes in and does well he'll go.

the assumption is that we are going to be losing money and have to sell to balance the books every year. That isn't case, unless we'll be paying more than we can afford in salaries every year, even after the big-earners have gone. (and if we are paying more in salaries than we can afford, doesn't that rather indicate we are living beyond our means already?)

At the end of last season we had a squad that with a SMAlLL amount of investment could have taken us up. What sort of squad will we start next season with?

We didn't. We had a squad that underachieved under Rodgers and over-achieved for a few months under McDermott. It was a squad that had potentially a chance of sneaking a play-off spot, but that's it.

How many years do you think it's worth running at a £5-6 million loss for the chance of going up through the play-offs. I guess some here would say every year, because they have no grasp of why it's better to avoid losing large sums of money every year. I actually believe some would rather we went down the "run up losses, go into administration, start again" route.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Overall though it goes back to the point of why do so many Reading fans (judging by the team board at least) seem to think an average-sized club being average in this division is a sign of failure?

Let's ask Wigan fans shall we?

Or Blackpool.

Size or history should have no bearing on ambition.

Right, so Basingstoke Town should be trying to get into the premier league then?


Ambition is one thing. Expectation is another. People now seem to have developed some sort of belief that we "belong" in the premier league, and not being there is failure.

And for the record, I'd say only the utter nob fans of Wigan or Blackpool would see being in the championship as failure.

[Victor Meldrew]

In terms of goal supremacy, which in the end is what matters
we are joint fourth in this league, and that's having played against
2 sides in that top 4


1 Queens PR 6 +15 +2.50
2 Cardiff City 6 +8 +1.33
3 Millwall 6 +7 +1.17

4 Burnley 6 +3 +0.50
4 Reading 6 +3 +0.50
4 Scunthorpe 6 +3 +0.50


So AT THE MOMENT. we seem to have traded a little bit of cavalier going-forward, banging-in-the-goals stuff
for a bit more security at the back. But the overall result has lifted us up the table to challenge, despite the
cock-up on Day One of the season. Interesting to see that Scunthorpe, who beat us 1-2 also won at Sheffield Utd 0-4
and have already won 5 games this season (incl 2 cup games). One of their defeats was by QPR, so like us, they have
already played v two of the top five teams. Maybe they are a bit better than we presumed before 3PM Day One?

Bit of an update.
We have played just one side in the top half of the table and that side got dubbed 6-1 at home yesterday.
None of our 3 remaining strikers has scored a goal in open play (9 games?) this season.
We lost at home to a side from the bottom division and were taken to 119 minutes by another side in the bottom division.

On the plus side we now have Kish back(will the manager play him?) and have 2 home games from which I would normally expect us to get about 4 points so our current 16th spot may seem false in a week or so from now.
We are however not looking anything like the promotion side that our chairman was going on about just a few weeks ago and within this topic I (and most others) feel that we have too many similar options up front-none of whom so far can be called a striker this season.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Wimb agree with your point about money. I'm looking more at the squad being improved. Though Coppell didn't spend a great deal, he didn't have to sell his best players.

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.

It's not possible to be self sufficent at this level. That's not JM's fault, it just shows how out of control wages are. Without outside investment we can only move back IMO.

This isn't a JM's a thief or a useless so and so post. But we need to move on.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.
.

for the last two years we've had to cope with a reduction in parachute payments. That will not be a problem next season.

And at no point as it ever been stated that we can't afford to spend any of Sig's transfer fee. That's just as assumption people have made because we didn't sign anyone on the last day.

People have to start realising that this isn't championship manager, and signing players is a little more complicated.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.
.

for the last two years we've had to cope with a reduction in parachute payments. That will not be a problem next season.

And at no point as it ever been stated that we can't afford to spend any of Sig's transfer fee. That's just as assumption people have made because we didn't sign anyone on the last day.

People have to start realising that this isn't championship manager, and signing players is a little more complicated.

I don't believe that Lee Hendrie on trial was the only option out there. There is a reason we didn't sign anyone else and it clearly isn't because Hendrie was that good.

The books need to be balanced, but what are we going to have to do to do that?

[juanpablo]

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.
.

People have to start realising that this isn't championship manager, and signing players is a little more complicated.

other clubs in our division seem to handle it ok

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.
.

People have to start realising that this isn't championship manager, and signing players is a little more complicated.

other clubs in our division seem to handle it ok

How many of them were in our position of selling their best player on the last day of the transfer window?

[under the tin]

Rev, we were told last summers sales would balance the books. Then there was a sudden £4m hole, then we had to sell Sig for £7m and then could afford to reinvest any of it.
.

People have to start realising that this isn't championship manager, and signing players is a little more complicated.

How many of them were in our position of selling their best player on the last day of the transfer window?

That's stretching logic a bit far, IMO.
Gylfi wasn't taken with a surprise bid out of the blue. Hoffenheim had been tracking him, with the full knowledge of RFC, for a considerable period of time. Similarly, those in the know at Star were reasonably certain that the club were quietly hawking certain players around in order to address the parlous state of the finances.
I do not believe for a second that the club employs scouts, but only sends them out to work when the money is in the bank. Ergo, the club had either identified contingency targets, or they hadn't. My bet is they did, but the proceeds from Gylfi's sale were needed elsewhere.
The rest of it is spin to keep bums on seats.