Long - time for a change?

[Bandini]

The quoting mechanism really isn't that difficult.

What I would like to see from Long is what he does over the course of a season in the Premiership, goals and general performance. Doyle's 13 goals (I think) and all round game in our first season in the Premiership was first rate. I'd expect that Long on his form this season could match that, but I'd like to see it before saying that he's matched Doyle.

[Wimb]

Bandini said:

His Championship form is the equal of Doyle's at this level (at least, taking into account the relative strength of the teams), but we need to see how he does in the Premiership before determining whether or not he's matched Doyle.


Well, Shane got 5 Premiership goals (in 2006-7 and 2007-8), at the same minutes per goal as Doyle is overall, and he's WAY better as a player now.

I'd expect him to get the 10+ Premiership goals (in a season) I said he would get

Fair play to you Snowball, your extrapolations of Long's Championship goal scoring exploits rang true but do you not think we need a bigger sample size to judge a player when it comes to the Premier League?

A quick point as well, 3/4 of Doyle's Premier League seasons have been in struggling teams, and for most of that time he's been the lone man in a 4-5-1, just as Long struggled to score goals in a 4-5-1. It's also worth remembering how much Doyle has had to play wide as opposed to up front (a lot of 2007/08 for example)

The same defences you used to back Long in the autumn can just as easily be used to defend Doyle's scoring rate in the Premier League.

[Snowball]

The quoting mechanism really isn't that difficult.

What I would like to see from Long is what he does over the course of a season in the Premiership, goals and general performance. Doyle's 13 goals (I think) and all round game in our first season in the Premiership was first rate. I'd expect that Long on his form this season could match that, but I'd like to see it before saying that he's matched Doyle.

The 2005-6 team was exceptional, the 2006-7 TEAM exceptional. We looked good for a while (because of the team)
but in the second Prem season Doyle managed just 6 goals in 34 (2) = 34.33 games. Long got 3 in 7 (22) = 10.7 games,
that's a far better strike rate.

I love KD but his Premiership form has looked to be fading. 13 > 6 > 9 > 5


Next season it's 95% likely they'll both be in the Prem. Luck and major injuries apart, I think Shane will out-score Kevin

[Snowball]

Bandini said:

His Championship form is the equal of Doyle's at this level (at least, taking into account the relative strength of the teams), but we need to see how he does in the Premiership before determining whether or not he's matched Doyle.


Well, Shane got 5 Premiership goals (in 2006-7 and 2007-8), at the same minutes per goal as Doyle is overall, and he's WAY better as a player now.

I'd expect him to get the 10+ Premiership goals (in a season) I said he would get

Fair play to you Snowball, your extrapolations of Long's Championship goal scoring exploits rang true but do you not think we need a bigger sample size to judge a player when it comes to the Premier League?

A quick point as well, 3/4 of Doyle's Premier League seasons have been in struggling teams, and for most of that time he's been the lone man in a 4-5-1, just as Long struggled to score goals in a 4-5-1. It's also worth remembering how much Doyle has had to play wide as opposed to up front (a lot of 2007/08 for example)

The same defences you used to back Long in the autumn can just as easily be used to defend Doyle's scoring rate in the Premier League.

Of course, Wimb. But watching Longy, I think he will surprise many with his power and speed,
more-so because the midfielders supplying him will play fantastic balls. It isn't just his Prem
goals, but goals v Liverpool (and the pen), v Villa, WBA etc. He doesn't seem phased by Prem
defences. He did OK with Noel alongside. But imagine him alongside a very good prem striker
who takes half the punishment.

Agree on Kevin. But the facts are the facts, there haven't been a lot of goals. I got terrible stick
when defending Shane because he was in 451 or working the wings. He does a lot of that and wass
fifth highest assister in the championship this year. No small feat.

[Bandini]

Luck and major injuries apart, I think Shane will out-score Kevin

That's pretty much all you need to say.

Consider brevity an aspiration.

[Mr Angry]

I think with luck and barring major injuries, thie Reading side would outscore Wolves!

Agree with Snowball that Shane playing with a 2nd good quality striker, and getting decent service, would probably have a better than average scoring record in the prem; hopefully it will be with us next season!

[Snowball]

Luck and major injuries apart, I think Shane will out-score Kevin

That's pretty much all you need to say.

Consider brevity an aspiration.

NORMAL rational argument attempts to justify WHY "I think".


I know it's not the Hob-Nob way. All we really need to say is "Long will never be a footballer" (etc etc etc)
without justification, and it will be so. Except it won't.

You do whatever YOU want to do. I will continue to do things MY way, the better way.

[Bandini]

Your way isn't a better way in this instance as you are rather pre-judging how he's going to do. Your previous post ended up with a more cautious, "I think" formulation, and I chose to praise that as the good part of your post - one with which I would entirely agree if Long maintains his current form and assuming Doyle remains at Wolves. This is praise which I would maintain notwithstanding your rather intemperate reply, as I believe you will often arrive at the better opinion, even if the time you spend there may be rather short.

[Snowball]

You say

[Wimb]

Bandini said:

His Championship form is the equal of Doyle's at this level (at least, taking into account the relative strength of the teams), but we need to see how he does in the Premiership before determining whether or not he's matched Doyle.


Well, Shane got 5 Premiership goals (in 2006-7 and 2007-8), at the same minutes per goal as Doyle is overall, and he's WAY better as a player now.

I'd expect him to get the 10+ Premiership goals (in a season) I said he would get

Fair play to you Snowball, your extrapolations of Long's Championship goal scoring exploits rang true but do you not think we need a bigger sample size to judge a player when it comes to the Premier League?

A quick point as well, 3/4 of Doyle's Premier League seasons have been in struggling teams, and for most of that time he's been the lone man in a 4-5-1, just as Long struggled to score goals in a 4-5-1. It's also worth remembering how much Doyle has had to play wide as opposed to up front (a lot of 2007/08 for example)

The same defences you used to back Long in the autumn can just as easily be used to defend Doyle's scoring rate in the Premier League.

Of course, Wimb. But watching Longy, I think he will surprise many with his power and speed,
more-so because the midfielders supplying him will play fantastic balls. It isn't just his Prem
goals, but goals v Liverpool (and the pen), v Villa, WBA etc. He doesn't seem phased by Prem
defences. He did OK with Noel alongside. But imagine him alongside a very good prem striker
who takes half the punishment.

Agree on Kevin. But the facts are the facts, there haven't been a lot of goals. I got terrible stick
when defending Shane because he was in 451 or working the wings. He does a lot of that and wass
fifth highest assister in the championship this year. No small feat.

'greed Snowy and I do think Shane will cause (and has caused) Premier League defences some bother. Still there's the fact that he has the 'unknown' factor about him this season. OK he's been around a while but I don't think our cup opponents will have had quite the book on him that Premier League teams will have next season. Again I'm not trying to devalue what he's accomplished so far and it gives us plenty of hope for the future (if we go up!) but I'm not as high on Long's raw skills/technique as perhaps you are.

In baseball a rookie pitcher can often go through the league once with great success but as soon as he's back a second/third time, a teams batters know what's coming and how to deal with it. Similarly defenders will know how Long likes to play and will get to see every minute of his performances from 20 different angles, not to mention the quality of the defenders will go up as well.

I don't quite think that Shane has the quality and technique to set himself on a level above that of Kevin Doyle. I think it could well be very close, with Shane maybe just nudging out Doyler in the future, but I don't quite see Longy as having the skillset to make him stand out significantly over his ROI team mate.