Our place in the league

[Graham's dad]

OK folks, time for a reality check. Most people seem to think we should be a Premier League club based on the comments on this site. But why? No doubt this is based entirely on 2 seasons in the Prem with a team punching well above its weight. This has been an exceptional period in the club's history and one unlikely to be repeated in the foreseeable future, certainly under the present management who seem utterly clueless.

So, a little perspective highlighted by a few stats.
1. Ground capacity. Currently our capacity ranks us 37th withonly 2 Prem clubs with marginally smaller grounds.
2. Attendances. Currently we are ranked 35th. 4 clubs in Div 1 have better attendaces! No doubt this would improve if the team were performing better but would still not put us in the top 20.
3. Population. This is the interesting one. Reading(including Wokingham) is the 17th largest town or city in england (the top 16 are all cities incidentally) but the proximity to London draws the glory hunters to Chelsea, Arsenal etc.

So realistically we are nowhere near the top 20 without even taking history into account. Our rightful place looks like lower mid-table in the Championship so forget about thePremier League and concentrate on at least being where we should be. Can these players achieve this? The answer is yes, provided we see a bit of passion and good management, neither of which is there right now.

[Royal Lady]

Not this again.

Why do we dare to think we should be in the Premier League?? Because our esteemed chairman kept telling us so and BR STILL reckons we can be top of the table. If they didn't keep on about it, we wouldn't be anywhere near to EXPECTING it.

[Graham's dad]

You are so right Royal Lady. They even had me believing it when I renewed my season ticket and to think they criticise banks for mis-selling!

[Vision]

Not this again.

Why do we dare to think we should be in the Premier League?? Because our esteemed chairman kept telling us so and BR STILL reckons we can be top of the table. If they didn't keep on about it, we wouldn't be anywhere near to EXPECTING it.

Sorry RL but that isn't really thge case. Regardless of what comes from the club there is an element of our support that thinks the world begins and ends with the Premier ship and that anything other than that is failiure.

You know it, I know it and this board alone tells you it's a fact.

JM gets slated for the "cutting cloth" comments and then slated when he comes out with talk of premiership ambitions. He's asked to show "where's the money gone" and then when he does the same people refuse to believe what he says anyway.

People have made up their own minds already irrelevant of what he says.

Rodgers has in my view put too much pressure on his team and himself with a lot of his public comments but to suggest that the majority of Reading fans blindly believed him is a bit far fetched.

[facaldaqui]

I think that with the ground and the crowd size Reading fans should no longer regard anything lower than second tier as acceptable. I will get quite angry if we're relegated and people say that we are returning to our natural level. Having said that, bad football teams get relegated, regardless of their pretensions (Leeds, Southampton, Norwich, Charlton).

As for the prem, no reason why any well-managed Championship side shouldn't get there now and again, but you need to find a way of investing to stay there. Yes, we were punching above our weight in the prem, but it still rankles that we went down needlessly. It was not inevitable that we got relegated that season. Several other teams were about the same standard as us.

[Graham's dad]

I certainly didn't blindly believe him, far too cynical for that but nevertheless I did think we would buy a few decent players to replace those departing and there would be a genuine attempt at rebuilding with promotion in view given the financial rewards implicit in promotion and JM's desire to sell the club.

[strap]

JM gets slated for the "cutting cloth" comments and then slated when he comes out with talk of premiership ambitions. He's asked to show "where's the money gone" and then when he does the same people refuse to believe what he says anyway.

You don't find it odd then that the Annual Company Accounts lodged with Companies House, are somewhat different to the version of events Mr Mad recently published?

[Thaumagurist*]

"Graham's dad"? Graham Poll, maybe?

Anyway, we are where we are because we earned it.

[(.)Boobies(.)]

OK folks, time for a reality check. Most people seem to think we should be a Premier League club based on the comments on this site. But why? No doubt this is based entirely on 2 seasons in the Prem with a team punching well above its weight. This has been an exceptional period in the club's history and one unlikely to be repeated in the foreseeable future, certainly under the present management who seem utterly clueless.

So, a little perspective highlighted by a few stats.
1. Ground capacity. Currently our capacity ranks us 37th withonly 2 Prem clubs with marginally smaller grounds.
2. Attendances. Currently we are ranked 35th. 4 clubs in Div 1 have better attendaces! No doubt this would improve if the team were performing better but would still not put us in the top 20.
3. Population. This is the interesting one. Reading(including Wokingham) is the 17th largest town or city in england (the top 16 are all cities incidentally) but the proximity to London draws the glory hunters to Chelsea, Arsenal etc.

So realistically we are nowhere near the top 20 without even taking history into account. Our rightful place looks like lower mid-table in the Championship so forget about thePremier League and concentrate on at least being where we should be. Can these players achieve this? The answer is yes, provided we see a bit of passion and good management, neither of which is there right now.

No thank you. [closes door]

[Vision]

As for the prem, no reason why any well-managed Championship side shouldn't get there now and again, but you need to find a way of investing to stay there. Yes, we were punching above our weight in the prem, but it still rankles that we went down needlessly. It was not inevitable that we got relegated that season. Several other teams were about the same standard as us.

No but it was inevitable that we would eventually be in the bottom tier of that division unless we were prepared to take the gamble necessary to secure players at a higher end. Teams will get relegated this season having spent a huge amount of money which their structure cannot afford. The only way around it is if we have someone vastly wealthy who is prepared to take a massive hit. We don't have one and quite honestly I'm more than comfortable with that.

It brings us back to the fact that the OP is right in my view. We have an infrastructure and turnover of championship standard which, if we get the right combination on the pitch can see us challenge for a place at the Top table. However we are not immune to the cycles of football where all clubs go through a re-building and transitional phase. Don't get me wrong I too will be upset with relegation because despite all the talk about "selling the family silver" and "panic buys" there is still enough in this squad to be lower mid-table and possibly higher if the younger players step up.

[Vision]

JM gets slated for the "cutting cloth" comments and then slated when he comes out with talk of premiership ambitions. He's asked to show "where's the money gone" and then when he does the same people refuse to believe what he says anyway.

You don't find it odd then that the Annual Company Accounts lodged with Companies House, are somewhat different to the version of events Mr Mad recently published?

No, not really but then equally I'm not the one shouting the odds.

[madmickb]

OK folks, time for a reality check. Most people seem to think we should be a Premier League club based on the comments on this site. But why? No doubt this is based entirely on 2 seasons in the Prem with a team punching well above its weight. This has been an exceptional period in the club's history and one unlikely to be repeated in the foreseeable future, certainly under the present management who seem utterly clueless.

So, a little perspective highlighted by a few stats.
1. Ground capacity. Currently our capacity ranks us 37th withonly 2 Prem clubs with marginally smaller grounds.
2. Attendances. Currently we are ranked 35th. 4 clubs in Div 1 have better attendaces! No doubt this would improve if the team were performing better but would still not put us in the top 20.
3. Population. This is the interesting one. Reading(including Wokingham) is the 17th largest town or city in england (the top 16 are all cities incidentally) but the proximity to London draws the glory hunters to Chelsea, Arsenal etc.

So realistically we are nowhere near the top 20 without even taking history into account. Our rightful place looks like lower mid-table in the Championship so forget about thePremier League and concentrate on at least being where we should be. Can these players achieve this? The answer is yes, provided we see a bit of passion and good management, neither of which is there right now.

If thats your ambition in life why dont you go and support Oxford

[rfctabs]

You don't find it odd then that the Annual Company Accounts lodged with Companies House, are somewhat different to the version of events Mr Mad recently published?

Three accountants go for a job. They're each given a test whereby they have to review some transactions and state the profit that would result. The candidates are all asked for their assessment of the figures and the first one coinfidently states a profit of £10,000,000. The second candidate equally confidently states a loss of £10,000,000. The third candidate says "How much did you have in mind?"

Tricky chaps, these accountants (guess which one got the job ).

So what were the major differences? Is the club sitting on a pile of cash that most of us don't know about? Or is the club in debt up to it's footballs and staring administration in the face?

[Sun Tzu]

So what were the major differences? Is the club sitting on a pile of cash that most of us don't know about? Or is the club in debt up to it's footballs and staring administration in the face?

Or somewhere in between ? WHich is kind of what the statement said isn't it ?

[Vision]

So what were the major differences? Is the club sitting on a pile of cash that most of us don't know about? Or is the club in debt up to it's footballs and staring administration in the face?

Or somewhere in between ? WHich is kind of what the statement said isn't it ?

Also the statement was equally concerned with a projection of the situation for this coming year as well as what has gone before.

[rfctabs]

So what were the major differences? Is the club sitting on a pile of cash that most of us don't know about? Or is the club in debt up to it's footballs and staring administration in the face?

Or somewhere in between ? WHich is kind of what the statement said isn't it ?

Indeed, Mr Sun. If you strip out the actual numbers in the statement, you have a Premiership wage bill being funded by Championship gates and sponsorship. And it's not like we're a big club who can still get big corporate bucks through the door whichever league we're in. Whether we like it or not, we'll never be a "big" club. We could win the Premiership ten times in a row and the big four will still get all the headlines and cash . So we have to cut our cloth according to our means, and without Premiership cash those means are pretty slim.

We did it once before with astute aquisition of good players on low wages (not much evidence of that now. If Mr Hammond is the main shaker and mover for player transfers, does this mean his skills have deserted him? If not, we must be really strapped for cash if this is all he can get for his money. Or if BR is the main man, what does that say about his judgement?). When we went up the Championship and then into the Prem, the wages followed. Sadly, when we went into reverse the wages were never going to go down, so we had to sell the high earners. I'm sure most of the lads would've been happy to stay at the club per se, but not for less cash (even if we kept their wages the same, other clubs on the up could no doubt afford more).

So we're in a vicious spiral. No cash = not the best players or manager. Not the best players or manager = poor results. Poor results = low gates and reduced sponsorship. Low gates and reduced sponsorship = no cash....

We're all doomed...

[Stevie G]

You know at the start of the season they do that alphabetical thing that means we start in the bottom third, well...

Our name is shorter and earlier in the alphabet than Wolves, so we should be higher in the league than them and thus Premiership before them.

Planning, aspiration, commitment, achievement, all more important than town size, ground size and attendance.

[Stevie G]

Doh, that puts us bottom third out of all the leagues, but at least still ahead of Wolves.

Where's my club list....

[Sun Tzu]

So we're in a vicious spiral. No cash = not the best players or manager. Not the best players or manager = poor results. Poor results = low gates and reduced sponsorship. Low gates and reduced sponsorship = no cash....

We're all doomed...

You wonder how all the other clubs get by !

I don' tthink there is an answer to the original point about where our 'place' is, other than it is where results leave us.

Any suggestion that desires to be in the Prem are there solely becasue the club has planted them there are obvioulsy rubbish. For donkey's years fans have talked about the (un)likilhood of us playing in the top division. We may have thougt we never would but it's still been talked about.
Personally I'm extremely ambivalent about whether we play there again. I'd be pleased if we did, I won't lose sleep if we don't. I prefer us to be winning / successful than losing /unsuccesful but can take a wider view than how we are playingh today / this week / this season. We've had awful years before (many of them), we'll have good years again. If i wanted guaranteed success I'd be a Man Utd fan.

[Vision]

You know at the start of the season they do that alphabetical thing that means we start in the bottom third, well...

Our name is shorter and earlier in the alphabet than Wolves, so we should be higher in the league than them and thus Premiership before them.

Planning, aspiration, commitment, achievement, all more important than town size, ground size and attendance.

Thats true until you reach the Premiership where all logic then goes out of the window. You may survive for a short while but unless you have, or are prepared to gamble, the big bucks then ultimately you can't compete long term reagrdless of all the other attributes you list.

The Premiership has distorted absolutely everything.