The Safe Standing Campaign

[STAR Voice]

You may have seen the news item on the front page about the Early Day Motion 101 in Parliament. Please, make sure you ask your MP to sign it if they've not already done so - getting over 100 signatures is the target, and this could be the thing that finally breaks down the Government and the FLA's refusal to discuss this issue.

For futher info won this, and why you should sign, I'm pasting the "Talking Points on Safe Standing" doceumnt prepared by the Football Supporters' Federation as part of our campaign on this subject.

FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS’ FEDERATION

SAFE STANDING – HOUSE OF COMMONS EARLY DAY MOTION 101

TALKING POINTS

1 Standing areas are permitted in Football Leagues One and Two and further down the English football pyramid system, at both rugby union and rugby league, at speedway, at horse-racing and rock/pop concerts within football stadiums.

2 The Hillsborough tragedy was in large part caused by supporters not being able to escape onto the playing field to avoid the crush, by poor policing and stewarding and by the poor design on the standing enclosure at the Leppings Lane end, not by supporters standing at the match. Those killed at the Bradford City fire were seated in a grandstand.

3 The continued ban on standing at top football grounds is contrary to the Government’s policy that regulation of any activity should be proportionate and related to the potential risk. Many supporters prefer to stand. They should be given that choice. This would reduce friction at stadia between those who prefer (or in some cases are obliged by physical disability) to sit and those who would rather stand.

4 The Football Licensing Authority has so far failed to produce any empirical evidence that standing is more dangerous than sitting at football matches.

5 What is proposed by supporters is NOT a return to the badly-designed standing terraces of the pre-Hillsborough era but specifically designed and properly stewarded safe standing areas such as can be found in Germany for domestic league matches.

6 Safe standing is permitted at domestic Bundesliga matches in Germany. Standing areas are permitted at some of Europe’s most modern stadia there such as the Veltins Arena in Gelsenkirchen (home of Schalke 04, current league leaders, standing ticket costs €9 (£6.25) or at Signal Iduna Park in Dortmund (home of Borussia Dortmund, where standing tickets cost €11.50 (£8.00).

7 As more spectators can be safely accommodated in safe standing areas, the opportunity arises to lower ticket prices whilst maintaining income for clubs.

8 The prohibition on safe standing areas is a barrier to ambitious clubs, requiring disproportionate investment upon promotion to the Football League Championship.

9 The Government promotes consumer choice in most areas of our social and cultural life, why not at major football grounds?

10 The current Early Day Motion calls not for the introduction of safe standing areas per se, but for an informed debate involving supporter representatives on its introduction, taking into account all the relevant issues, including supporter comfort and safety.

11 It has already been signed by MPs from the Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Plaid Cymru, Democratic Unionist and Social Democratic & Labour Parties. This is not a party political issue.

12 Football supporters are electors too. We all have a vote.

13 Safe standing areas are supported by some survivors of the Hillsborough disaster.

The Early Day Motion can be found at: http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetai ... ESSION=885

This includes a list of MPs who have signed it. The situation with local MPs is :

SIGNED :
Bracknell Forest : Andrew Mackay

NOT SIGNED :
Maidenhead : Theresa May
Reading East : Martin Salter
Reading West : Rob Wilson
Wokingham : John Redwood
Newbury : Richard Benyon
Basingstoke : Maria Miller
Henley : Boris Johnson
Slough : Fiona Mactaggart
Windsor : Adam Afriyie

You can find out who your MP is and how to contact her/him by typing in your postcode at: http://www.writetothem.com

MPs who are Government Ministers cannot sign EDMs. This should NOT stop you writing to them to let them know how you feel however.

Please let the FSF have copies of any letters you send and replies you get. Send these to: phill.gatenby@fsf.org.uk or to me at STAR.Campaigns@btinternet.com

Thanks for your support.

- JK

[TFF]

And if we don't agree with "safe standing" should we contact our MPs to ask them NOT to sign?

[cheeryoleary]

What is RFC's position on standing?

Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years?

I guess you have a few open tasks (e.g. Maniac bus drivers). Where on your list of tasks does this one sit? Is it a priority?

Thanks
Cheery

[STAR Voice]

And if we don't agree with "safe standing" should we contact our MPs to ask them NOT to sign?

Certainly - but this EDM is about opening up discussion on the issue, not about making it compulsory or forcing anyone to do what they don't want to do.

Choice over compulsion is the keyword.

[STAR Voice]

What is RFC's position on standing?

Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years?

I guess you have a few open tasks (e.g. Maniac bus drivers). Where on your list of tasks does this one sit? Is it a priority?

Thanks
Cheery

Because RFC was purpose built for seating, I think it's remote that this will happen at the MadStad as currently built. But there's certainly potential for safe standing areas in the expanded MadStad, and this affects us in many other ways (away grounds, consistency of stewarding between home/away fans, etc, etc).

STAR supports the FSF's "safe standing" campaign, which calls for small, purposebuilt areas designed for safe-standing, as used in Germany. We don't particularly support the "Stand Up, Sit Down" ("SUSD") campaign for a number of reasons that I won't bore you with now but I'm happy to share if requested.

It's just one of many priorities most of which are driven by the timing and opportunities to do domething about them. But as I'm also a member of the National Council of the FSF this is an issue that I know about and I know that as this EDM has brought it to the fore right now this is a great opportunity to make something happen.

JK

[Legend]

STAR supports the FSF's "safe standing" campaign, which calls for small, purposebuilt areas designed for safe-standing

So then, which clubs are going to re-design their grounds and build a small area designated for standing ?

[cheeryoleary]

What is RFC's position on standing?

Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years?

I guess you have a few open tasks (e.g. Maniac bus drivers). Where on your list of tasks does this one sit? Is it a priority?

Thanks
Cheery

Because RFC was purpose built for seating, I think it's remote that this will happen at the MadStad as currently built. But there's certainly potential for safe standing areas in the expanded MadStad, and this affects us in many other ways (away grounds, consistency of stewarding between home/away fans, etc, etc).

STAR supports the FSF's "safe standing" campaign, which calls for small, purposebuilt areas designed for safe-standing, as used in Germany. We don't particularly support the "Stand Up, Sit Down" ("SUSD") campaign for a number of reasons that I won't bore you with now but I'm happy to share if requested.

It's just one of many priorities most of which are driven by the timing and opportunities to do domething about them. But as I'm also a member of the National Council of the FSF this is an issue that I know about and I know that as this EDM has brought it to the fore right now this is a great opportunity to make something happen.

JK

You have not answered my questions. You dodged them.
One thing that annoys me rotten is when I ask a straight question and I get a wooly response.
If "this EDM is about opening up discussion on the issue" then would you start by answering my questions.

My personal opinion is that STAR should not consider this a priority when there are so many other closer to home open tasks where fan representation is needed.

[STAR Voice]

STAR supports the FSF's "safe standing" campaign, which calls for small, purposebuilt areas designed for safe-standing

So then, which clubs are going to re-design their grounds and build a small area designated for standing ?

Again, this is about choice rather than compulsion, and there are enough grounds where it could happen, as in Germany, if only to reduce the on-going crowd/steward conflict over standing, which is surely unacceptable to everyone.

Good candiates, potentially, are the grounds which have had seating installed onto terracing, and where the rake of the stadium makes it unsuitable for this (e.g. Elland Road & The Boleyn, to name just two).

Also as clubs come up from Tier 3 this reduces the compulsion for them to convert - again with ground that may not be suitable. Ditto grounds that are expanded or rebuilt.

[STAR Voice]

You have not answered my questions. You dodged them.
One thing that annoys me rotten is when I ask a straight question and I get a wooly response.
If "this EDM is about opening up discussion on the issue" then would you start by answering my questions.

My personal opinion is that STAR should not consider this a priority when there are so many other closer to home open tasks where fan representation is needed.

Apologies, if you want direct answers I'll give them, I've certainly not tried to dodge anything - let me re-read to see what direct questions you asked.......

What is RFC's position on standing?

They follow the standard line that all clubs follow in public - the law does not allow standing and so this is not a topic for discussion. However, it is a matter of record that RFC, like most clubs, has problems making fans sit, and that this cannot be effectively done if large numbers decide to stand. They are caught in the middle between the FLA's position of "strictly no standing" and a commonsense approach to stewarding, and they also resent the lost revenue from matches where they have been forced to reduce the away allocation because of persistent standing by different sets of fans. They're also aware of the threat of legal action from Disability Rights activists who can't see because of people standing in front of them. the club know that with current legislation they are in a no-win situation.

Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years?

If I wanted to be a smartarse, I'd answer 100%, because you can legally stand there to watch rugby or concerts - legally, watching a football match is far more dangerous than having everyone standing and dancing at their seats during a Chillis concert.
But to answer the question as I think you're asking it, I'd say there are too many variables to be sure - depends upon the identity of the next minister for DCMS, the success of this and other campaign, the timescale of the MadStad improvements and other factors, but I am optimistic without giving a definite percentage. For RFC fans legally standing at away Premier League matches in the next 10 years (if they want to!) I'd say 90%+, though.

I guess you have a few open tasks (e.g. Maniac bus drivers). Where on your list of tasks does this one sit? Is it a priority?

It's one of many priorities - it is at the top of today's list because the EDM has presented an opportunity to bring it to the fore, and so action now will be more effective that it would have been 2 weeks ago. But priorities change on a daily basis, and many tasks are handled in parallel - manic bus drivers has been raised and is still being dealt with - so nothing else can be done on that in the short term. The other current priority is trying to get RFC to add on the royalty points for STAR members - that's an on-going activity!

[Jerry St Clair]

Has Martin Salter expressed an opinion on this?

[STAR Voice]

Has Martin Salter expressed an opinion on this?

Not yet. However. Martin Salter will be the guest on the Reading 107 phone-in from 6.15 pm tomorrow (Friday), during which time I will be asking him to give his support and/or express his opinion on this.

[cheeryoleary]

Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years?

If I wanted to be a smartarse, I'd answer 100%, because you can legally stand there to watch rugby or concerts - legally, watching a football match is far more dangerous than having everyone standing and dancing at their seats during a Chillis concert.
But to answer the question as I think you're asking it, I'd say there are too many variables to be sure - depends upon the identity of the next minister for DCMS, the success of this and other campaign, the timescale of the MadStad improvements and other factors, but I am optimistic without giving a definite percentage. For RFC fans legally standing at away Premier League matches in the next 10 years (if they want to!) I'd say 90%+, though.

How can you answer "there are too many variables to be sure" when responding to a question specific to the Mad Stad, yet are able to state "90%+" for away grounds. I don't understand. Perhaps you are including the away matches statistic because hand on heart, you feel that standing at the Mad Stad is highly unlikely.

My question is specific to the Mad Stad. You're a representative of the Supporter's Trust At Reading first and foremost. I expect you to represent the interests of RFC supporters and RFC before commiting resources to fighting another organisation's lost cause.

Does STAR have the backing of RFC in this matter?

[STAR Voice]

How can you answer "there are too many variables to be sure" when responding to a question specific to the Mad Stad, yet are able to state "90%+" for away grounds. I don't understand. Perhaps you are including the away matches statistic because hand on heart, you feel that standing at the Mad Stad is highly unlikely.

I can answer that way because there currently are significant unknowns about the future configuration of the MadStad and the timescales for this.

If the MadStad stays unchanged then it is highly unlikely that standing will be permitted, but the MadStad can't stay unchanged - quite apart from the expansion plans (timescale's a big unknown) there has to be changes made to the current disables areas, which are not fit for purpose as currently designed and leave RFC potentially open to litigation. So changes have to be made at the MadStad - the variables are when these changes are made, whether they are made before or after changes to safe standing legislation (and indeed if there are such changes) and whether they are combined or not. There is a potential opportunity for this to happen, but I'm not able to give an estimate of the actual chance with any confidence.

My question is specific to the Mad Stad. You're a representative of the Supporter's Trust At Reading first and foremost. I expect you to represent the interests of RFC supporters and RFC before commiting resources to fighting another organisation's lost cause.

Surely it's only a lost cause if people believe it is so and make no effort to do anything about it?

Amongst STAR's policies, decided by the Board of STAR which was elected by its members, is to support the FSF's "Safe standing" campaign which is what I am doing by asking members to contact their MPs. As a leading member of the FSF, helping make their policies, we also don't consider that this is "someone else's campaign."

Everyone has the right to do so if they wish, equally they have the right to ignore this or to debate the issues as we're currently doing. In the same way, I have the right to decide how I allocate my "leisure time." And I use the word leisure in it's loosest sense...

Does STAR have the backing of the club in this matter?

No idea. Do we need it? Is it relevant?

[cheeryoleary]

There are significant unknowns about the future configuration of all grounds - not just the Mad Stad. The fact is you still have not or will not answer my question "Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years? "

I'm asking whether you are optimistic (you obviously are), and to state how optimistic as a percentage.

As to whether you have the club's backing..... it would add weight to your argument giving it greater credibility.

[Forbury Lion]

What about unsafe seating?

We could all get Deep Veined Thrombosis as Reading fly to new heights in the Premier League.

[RG30]

Good to see STAR getting involved in the issue and I'll be making sure Salter gets my views on the matter.

Do you have a list of definete MP's who have backed the motion?

[STAR Voice]

Sorry - broke to eat!

There are significant unknowns about the future configuration of all grounds - not just the Mad Stad. The fact is you still have not or will not answer my question "Expressed as a percentage, how optimistic are you that standing will be introduced to the Mad Stad in the next 10 years? "

I'm asking whether you are optimistic (you obviously are), and to state how optimistic as a percentage.

Because of the variables, I need to put a couple of pre-conditions into my ranswer, if that's Ok, Mr Paxman
As long as the Government allows open and objective discussion on safe standing, and as long as this happens before the MadStad expansion plans are set in stone, I am more than 66% optimistic that safe standing, for those who want it, will happen at the MadStad.

As to whether you have the club's backing..... it would add weight to your argument giving it greater credibility.

Agreed, but whilst standing is illegal no clubs, Chairmen, police chiefs or ground safety officers will break ranks, for obvious reasons. Many have privately expressed support, because everyone seems to realise that the current conflict between crowds and ground authorities cannot go on.

[STAR Voice]

Good to see STAR getting involved in the issue and I'll be making sure Salter gets my views on the matter.

Do you have a list of definete MP's who have backed the motion?

Thanks for the support.

The list of MPs who have signed (updated on a daily basis) is at : http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=31670&SESSION=885

[Gordons Cumming]

As It annoys me when people stand in seating areas I guess it would be a good thing.

Can't see it happening at the Mad Stad though.......................or maybe.

You'd probably get more people in then.........................though at a reduced price......................hhhhmmmmmmmmmmm.............................

Maybe....

[The Cube]

I strongly oppose the EDM and I detest my MP.

Can't work out whether that means I should want him to sign it or not...