Steward abuse and standing

[savage 4 england]

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetai ... ESSION=885

List of Mp's.

[Friday's Child]

Paying to go to a sporting event - or any such event for that matter - and choosing to stand rather than sit... that seems to be the issue. I am happy to comply upon the answering of a few very simple questions:

- Can the club please prove what "standing" is? What if I need to use the loo on more than one occasion due to bowel problems? Is that "persistent standing"?

- Is there actually a definition of what standing is? I would like to insinuate that in the absence of a reasonable definition then it is the perogative of each incumbent paying client to draw their own interpretation.

- What if I am 7ft 8in and even while sitting, people cannot see over me?

- What if someone in front of me stands? Even to use the loo or get food and not just because he or she is excited?

- I'm not a big fan of wasps and tend to flap a lot if comes near me - will I be thrown out for standing?

- What if I cannot see the game because there is a steward in front of me who is standing up to try and throw out someone who is standing persistently?

- What if Ibrahima Sonko is standing on the edge of the six-yard box in the way of Kevin Doyle who pelts in a hat-track - is he ruining my viewing pleasure? Should he sit down before Doyle shoots?

- What if there is someone very fat standing up and blocking the views of three fans rather than the usual one? Is that not blocking the viewing pleasure of three people? It is reasonable to assume that this person is three times more at fault for distrupting the viewing pleasure of the paying public.

- In terms of standing being "unsafe", and that fans all standing and moving in a similar manner at the same time (such as chanting or going "ohh" upon a near miss) is deemed "unsafe", are we to suggest that the end of the game, when everyone stands to leave and walks at the same time, is also an unsafe motion?

- If it is unsafe for people to continually exert downward force on the concrete structure of the stadium, then should we also ensure that they do the same when walking across bridges, up flights of stairs, etc and ensure that we are not creating a rule that is contradicted by the absence of such a rule elsewhere?

- What is the recommended view of the club upon scoring a goal? I have been told that I cannot stand, but what does the club actually recommend?

- Why do the footballers, and commentators stand? Surely a footballer has rights to viewing pleasure and safety as well? Maybe because they don't pay they do not have the right?

- Why is standing permitted in the directors' boxes and corporate hospitality areas, where there is equal blocking of views by "standing", and equal downward pressure exerted on the structure?

This entire issue of standing seems too subjective to lay down any rules properly. Until my appropriate queries are answered, I will fight subjectivity with further subjectivity and confusion, leading to non-enforcement and failure for there to be a point to the rules.

[Keeper]

are you too busy decorating the stadium with hoops or helping the players WAGs organise a car park party?

Sharpy, why shouldn't STAR be involved in either of these things, or organising other things, I have heard nothing but positive things about the hoops and as for the Car Park Party, that was organised by the Royal Families, why can't we help out, as the idea was that it was for the fans

Supporters Trusts do not exist to fight against a Club because "some" of its supporters disagree with its policies, it does exist for lots of reasons, and one thing it covers is to arrange events, quiz nights, race nights, promotion parties etc so helping a good cause with their event is something we were happy to be involved in

Just because those things were more high profile than some of the other things we do, does not mean that there are not lots of things being done for the benefit of our members.

Finally, you have to remember that STAR represent all of their members, if we stood up and agreed with some of you that UNDER THE CURRENT RULES we should be allowed to stand then we would probably go against more of our members which agree that people shouldn't stand

That is why we are working towards getting the rules changed rather than arguing with the ones we have now, which in the long run will suit everyone much better

[STAR Voice]

This entire issue of standing seems too subjective to lay down any rules properly. Until my appropriate queries are answered, I will fight subjectivity with further subjectivity and confusion, leading to non-enforcement and failure for there to be a point to the rules.

Rather than try and answer every question, I'll make a couple of general comments. I'm certainly not going to get into a discussion on whether standing should be allowed and why - I'm fully committted to this and progress is being made at the right (political) level.

Firstly, as already pointed out, Lord Justice Taylor said in his report that it is inevitable that people will stand at times of the highest excitement.

Quite apart from the obvious point that the times when people behind you most want to see what is happening on the pitch are also the times of the highest excitement, it is obvious that the ground regulations do not ban standing "at any time", for instance in the event of wasp attack, etc.

And I also think people in this thread are getting too hung up on standing - yes, standing is the catalyst for this "clampdown" because the current regulations introduce inevitable conflict - yet another reason why they need to be changed.

But mostly this has been sparked off by abuse of the stewards, refusal to follow their instructions and, in extreme cases, attacks on them. So anyone asked to sit down who refuses or answers back etc, or who persistently stands will probably be in trouble.

So if anyone wants to carry on seeing the stewards as "the enemy", or thinks that they on their own will get the FLA to change their policies on standing, or wants to show their peer-group just how big, clever and badass they are - then please go ahead. My money is on the club using their powers.

[STAR Voice]

The role of STAR in this has been raised in this thread by some people. To clarify, I think it's useful for me to share my thoughts on this, and in particular how it applies to this topic.

As you know, STAR has regular meetings and contacts with people at the club at all levels. As a result of these meetings we can always tell fans what the club are saying/doing, but I think that has limited value, as often it's on the website or in the programme.

Where we can add value is in trying to explain to supporters why the club are saying these things. That's what we're doing here - saying what the club's policy/actions will be and trying to explain their reasons.

We can't always change the club's policies, but we can and do frequently influence or influence them, and we can always tell the club what the effect on supporters will be and what their likely reaction will be.

[Eastside_royal]

I think there has been such a response due to the clubs ill advised reference to the "supporters behaviour league" nonsense, as some kind of evidence that we are all really bad people. Kind of gets the fans, who spend alot of money with the clubs, noses up.
A gentler approach reminding fans of the current rules and possible consequences for not obeying them, would have been far more fruitfull in my opinion.

[Stranded]

I think there has been such a response due to the clubs ill advised reference to the "supporters behaviour league" nonsense, as some kind of evidence that we are all really bad people. Kind of gets the fans, who spend alot of money with the clubs, noses up.
A gentler approach reminding fans of the current rules and possible consequences for not obeying them, would have been far more fruitfull in my opinion.

They've done that before though and clearly it hasn't worked so they're trying a new approach.

[M4 Junction 11]

did anyone ask yet if we can stand when we score a goal

[TFF]

I look forward to the day when one or two blocks in the east stand are designated as "standing areas".

I further look forward to all the badass mofos starting a "we can sit where we want and the stewards can't stop us" thread.

[Seal]

Hypothetically, what would the club do if the whole of Y25 / Y26 stood all game in protest? Would they have the bottle to ban 2000 odd fans?

[Keeper]

They couldn't, not all of Y25 and Y26 want to stand, if someone isn't protesting but wants to watch the game and they stand because people infront are standing, they want to sit but in order to watch what they paid to see are being forced to stand, then how can the Club throw them out?

[Seal]

Hence my use of the word 'hypothetically', I know not everyone wants to stand, but I used Y25 / Y26 as the example as that appears to be the area with the highest proportion of people who do want to stand.

As for your answer, that's exactly what I thought. And of course that is exactly how everyone would get away with it, even those who want to stand could just say 'It wasn't me guv, I didn't want to stand but those nasty protesters made me'. Easy!

[biscuitsrus]

Me, I can not see any problem associated with RFC fan behaviour home or away.

Its very difficult to have a sit down DISCO.

[Sharpy]

are you too busy decorating the stadium with hoops or helping the players WAGs organise a car park party?

Sharpy, why shouldn't STAR be involved in either of these things, or organising other things, I have heard nothing but positive things about the hoops and as for the Car Park Party, that was organised by the Royal Families, why can't we help out, as the idea was that it was for the fans

Supporters Trusts do not exist to fight against a Club because "some" of its supporters disagree with its policies, it does exist for lots of reasons, and one thing it covers is to arrange events, quiz nights, race nights, promotion parties etc so helping a good cause with their event is something we were happy to be involved in

Just because those things were more high profile than some of the other things we do, does not mean that there are not lots of things being done for the benefit of our members.

Finally, you have to remember that STAR represent all of their members, if we stood up and agreed with some of you that UNDER THE CURRENT RULES we should be allowed to stand then we would probably go against more of our members which agree that people shouldn't stand

That is why we are working towards getting the rules changed rather than arguing with the ones we have now, which in the long run will suit everyone much better

wasnt me, was an old nobber venting his feelings

[midlandadie]

stewards= tossers

[RIP ELM Park]

stewards= tossers

That's it debate over, I'd wager nobody else can counter this wonderfully articulated argument. It is clear sir that you posses an intellect of extreme proportions.

If only I had listened to my parents and gone to university. Then I would have been able to combat your point with an equally literate well thought out and balanced response, alas this is the best I can do

midlandadie = completetosser

[Im Spartacus]

How the hell are we going to climb the fans league with a performance like yesterdays, abusing an innocent Birmingham City fan throughout the whole 1st half, disputing the refs decisions, standing when we scored etc etc. I get the feeling some of you are just not taking this fans league seriously. You should be ashamed of yourselves.


Ps. Is there a Intertoto place up for grabs if we "perform" better.





Oh just in case:wink:

[biscuitsrus]

How the hell are we going to climb the fans league with a performance like yesterdays, abusing an innocent Birmingham City fan throughout the whole 1st half, disputing the refs decisions, standing when we scored etc etc. I get the feeling some of you are just not taking this fans league seriously. You should be ashamed of yourselves.


Ps. Is there a Intertoto place up for grabs if we "perform" better.





Oh just in case:wink:

Relegation form

[zac naloen]

Whats amusing is that that Fans league has nothing to do with sitting down. Our standing on it won't go up if we all sit down all game. Because the reason we are at the bottom is because some of our fans are vulgar, rude and take the piss out of everyone and everything for fun.

Unless the club want to stop that, our standing on that league will not go up.

[Im Spartacus]

Whats amusing is that that Fans league has nothing to do with sitting down. Our standing on it won't go up if we all sit down all game. Because the reason we are at the bottom is because some of our fans are vulgar, rude and take the piss out of everyone and everything for fun.
Unless the club want to stop that, our standing on that league will not go up.

Can you name one club who's fans aren't / don't.


taking cover from likley whoosh