Standing at Tottenham

[AF1]

So everyone who's posting on here will be standing at Asyon Villa on saturday, yeah?

Yes


Until about five seconds after the start when some mong starts tapping me on the shoulder.

[EASTENDER MARKY]

So everyone who's posting on here will be standing at Asyon Villa on saturday, yeah?

Yes


Until about five seconds after the start when some mong starts tapping me on the shoulder.

Just ignore them or tell them to stand up!

[Dirk Gently]

So everyone who's posting on here will be standing at Asyon Villa on saturday, yeah?

Yes


Until about five seconds after the start when some mong starts tapping me on the shoulder.

What if that mong is elderly/infirm and unable to stand for long periods of time?

[EASTENDER MARKY]

Well then sit down, but half of the people who tell you to sit down are perfectly able to stand up to watch a football match.

[Dirk Gently]

True, and if the person in front of you stands you then either have to miss the match or stand yourself.

QED the current regulations are unworkable - we need separate, safe, standing areas.

[EASTENDER MARKY]

Agreed, but thats not going to hapeen over night.

In the mean time we need to all stand as one so the stewards can't get us to sit down. Perhaps this would show them also that we can stand safely.

[Dirk Gently]

Ah, but it's not about safety any more ... a statement made by Department of Culture, Media & Science, made in June 2007 in repsonse to the FSF's document on safe standing says :

"Whilst the Government acknowledges that standing accommodation is not intrinsically unsafe, we still hold the view that, due to the large attendances in the top two leagues in England and potential for disorder that is not generally prevalent in other sports, seated accommodation at grounds in these leagues, along with good stewarding and policing, is the most effective means of achieving this aim. Nothing contained in the FSF report has led us to amend our view."

So the reason isn't safety, it's .. erm - the number of people at the grounds and the fact that they're football fans and therefore hooligans.

Although DCMS has subsequently back-tracked on this ....

[paultheroyal]

no evidence it improves the atmosphere and actually it would probably have the more negative effect because everyone is more weary from standing for long period.

Prove it. Put up or shut up.

Prove to me it has the opposite effect.

Went to Basingstoke FC over xmas - 1000 or so fans standing - atmosphere dead as a dodo - from games i have refereed in the conference etc - not much difference.

There is little demand for this than you realise.

Thank you for your polite words.

[paultheroyal]

So everyone who's posting on here will be standing at Asyon Villa on saturday, yeah?

Not a chance - as Spurs away proved.

[reading_lad]

So everyone who's posting on here will be standing at Asyon Villa on saturday, yeah?

Not a chance - as Spurs away proved.

Unfortunately, Paul is right, unless all the people who want to stand have tickets at the back, it won't happen.

And even if it did our fans will sit down again if stewards come up and moan

[Baines]

no evidence it improves the atmosphere and actually it would probably have the more negative effect because everyone is more weary from standing for long period.

Prove it. Put up or shut up.

Prove to me it has the opposite effect.

LOL at another thread descending into:

Poster 1 "prove the unprovable to me"
Poster 2 "no, you prove the unprovable to me"

WRT PauLOL's other posts however, whether or not people in a seated area choose to sit rather than stand bears little on whether those people would prefer to sit to watch football or would prefer to stand to watch football on a terrace.

The only things that can be said with confidence on this point are that

1) people who are happy to stand voluntarily (i.e. not simply because the person in front of them is standing) for prolonged periods during a game would obviously prefer to stand rather than sit, otherwise why would they stand? (It will be apparent from the evidence of your own eyes that there are plenty of such people);

2) Those people are only a small proportion of people who, when faced with a choice between sitting in seats or standing in a terrace, would prefer to stand, because the presence of seats, nagging stewards and consideration to the person sitting behind you all tend to discourage standing in seated areas.

[paultheroyal]

No one has proved standing is in demand / nor wanted / nor improves the atmosphere - nor can i totally prove the opposite other than describe recent games and Spurs being one example of many.

Bottom line is it wont change - vent your frustrations into something you can change i.e. improvements in catering for starters!!

[Dirk Gently]

No one has proved standing is in demand / nor wanted /

Apart from not being quite sure what the difference is between these two points, can I draw your attention to the below :

5.1 Commercial property consultants Drivers Jonas (DJ) whose current and former clients include, amongst many others, Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Exeter City, Reading, Southampton, Sunderland and Swansea City Football Clubs, commissioned the Football Fans’ Census (FFC) in 2005 to survey opinion amongst football fans on a range of stadia issues. The FFC also undertook a separate survey working with the group Stand Up Sit Down (SUSD) at the end of 2006.

5.2 The full findings of the latter survey, which is based on responses from 2,046 football supporters between 11 December 2006 and 6 January 2007, can be found at appendix A of this report. Amongst the highlights was a 92% ‘yes’ response to the question, ‘Should fans be given the freedom to choose whether they stand (in ‘safe-standing’ areas) or sit inside football grounds?’ Only 7% answered ‘no’ with 1% answering ‘don’t know’.

Bottom line is it wont change - vent your frustrations into something you can change i.e. improvements in catering for starters!!

It just might change - it will take a change in legislation, admittedly, but steady progress is being made in the Safe Standing campaign.

[Baines]

No one has proved standing is in demand / nor wanted /

1) people who are happy to stand voluntarily (i.e. not simply because the person in front of them is standing) for prolonged periods during a game would obviously prefer to stand rather than sit, otherwise why would they stand? (It will be apparent from the evidence of your own eyes that there are plenty of such people);

2) Those people are only a small proportion of people who, when faced with a choice between sitting in seats or standing in a terrace, would prefer to stand, because the presence of seats, nagging stewards and consideration to the person sitting behind you all tend to discourage standing in seated areas.

That appears to me to be sufficient proof that there is a good amount of demand for standing (if any proof were needed beyond the application of common sense).

If you're still in doubt, you have Dirk's evidence - the 92% point - and the position in Germany.

[paultheroyal]

92% of fans thinking that they should be given freedom of choice to stand is totally different to 92% of fans wanting to stand at football matches.

2 totally different statements. I am sure the consultant doing the survey would be very interested in football stadia development.

I am not against standing dont get me wrong - i just think you are all overstating the demand for it. Spurs on Saturday a clear example of this. If fans want it and get it then great - its not for me but hey ho!!

[Baines]

I am not against standing dont get me wrong - i just think you are all overstating the demand for it. Spurs on Saturday a clear example of this.

paul - the highlighted part of your post - why on earth would people not standing in a sitting area indicate a low demand for standing on terraces?

[Dirk Gently]

Fair enough - never let it be said I don't have all the statistics at hand....

Paul, I'd also draw your attention to questions 5, 7, 11 & 13.

Safe Standing Results Summary

Results produced by The Football Fans’ Census
12 January 2007
About The Survey
The national survey of 2,046 football fans was conducted by the Football Fans’ Census on behalf of ‘Safe Standing’ between 11 December 2006 and 6 January 2007. The survey was conducted online and supporters of 159 teams were represented including all clubs in the Premiership and Football League. 46% of respondents were season ticket holders.

About The Football Fans’ Census
The Football Fans’ Census is a football research organisation. It has over 100,000 registered member/users.

Tables of Findings
Source ‘Safe Standing Survey’ by the Football Fans’ Census. Sample size 2,046 football fans.

Q1. Should fans be given the freedom to choose whether they stand (in ‘safe-standing’ areas) or sit inside football grounds?
Yes 92%
No 7%
Don’t know 1%

Q2. Should ‘safe-standing’ areas be allowed in grounds?
Yes - it should be mandatory 27%
Yes - the option should be allowed 65%
No - ‘safe-standing’ shouldn’t be allowed 7%
Don’t know 1%

Q3. If clubs went ahead with it, what percentage of a ground’s capacity should be allocated a ‘safe-standing’ area?
Over 35% 23%
21- 35% 36%
11-20% 24%
10% or less 11%
Don’t know 6%

Q4. Who should have the power to decide whether or not grounds should include ‘safestanding’ areas?
Government/Depart of Culture, Media and Sport 9%
Local authorities - councils and police 20%
Individual clubs 52%
Supporters 17%
Don’t know 2%

Q5. If there was a ‘safe-standing’ area in your ground how often would you buy a standing ticket IF going to a match?
All the time 40%
More often than not 23%
Occasionally 17%
Never 17%
Don’t know 3%

Q6. How would the introduction of ‘safestanding’ areas affect your match attendance?
I’d go to a lot more matches 18%
I’d go to a few more matches 13%
Wouldn’t affect my attendance 65%
I’d go to a few less matches 1%
I’d go to many less matches 1%
Don’t know 2%

Q7. If designated standing areas were available would you generally prefer to use a standing or sitting area?
Standing 69%
Sitting 31%

Q8. What effect would the introduction of ‘safe-standing’ have on crowd trouble and hooliganism?
Would improve the situation a lot 4%
Would improve the situation slightly 7%
Wouldn’t make any difference 69%
Would make the situation slightly worse 10%
Would make the situation a lot worse 4%
Don’t know 6%

Q9. What effect would the introduction of ‘safe-standing’ have on spectator safety?
Would improve safety a lot 6%
Would improve safety slightly 18%
Wouldn’t make any difference 54%
Would make it slightly more unsafe 14%
Would make it significantly more unsafe 4%
Don’t know 4%

Q10. What effect would the introduction of ‘safe-standing’ have on your view during the match?
Would improve it a lot 17%
Would improve it slightly 19%
Wouldn’t make any difference 43%
Would make it slightly worse 13%
Would make it significantly worse 4%
Don’t know 4%

Q11. Do you think the introduction of ‘safe standing’ areas would improve the atmosphere at football?
Yes - significantly 72%
Yes - somewhat 20%
No - it wouldn’t make any difference 8%

Q12. Overall, what effect would the introduction of ‘safe-standing’ have on your match-day experience?
Would make it a lot more enjoyable 52%
Would make it slightly more enjoyable 26%
Wouldn’t make any difference 17%
Would make it less enjoyable 2%
Would make it significantly less enjoyable 2%
Don’t know 1%

Q13. Regardless of your preference to stand or sit, do you think that there should be designated standing areas at all grounds, to allow choice for all supporters and overcome the current problem of supporters standing in seated areas, blocking the view of those behind who may wish to sit?
Yes 90%
No 10%

Q14. Do you think there can ever be such a thing as ‘safe standing’?
Yes 79%
No - but I would like there to be standing areas anyway 13%
No - and I would not like there to be standing areas at football 6%
Don’t know 2%

Q15. Would you be more or less likely to vote for a politician in Local Elections who supported the reintroduction of some form of
standing at football?
Much more likely 29%
More likely 24%
Would make no difference 43%
Less likely 2%
Much less likely 2%

Q16. Would you be more or less likely to vote for a politician in National Elections who supported the reintroduction of some form of standing at football?
Much more likely 25%
More likely 25%
Would make no difference 46%
Less likely 2%
Much less likely 2%

[Platypuss]

Yep, no evidence for demand there.

[paultheroyal]

Yep, no evidence for demand there.

Check out their website - they are not wanting to be involved in building state of the art safe standing stadia are they?

DG - That is a better poll and results mind you - better than your first offering

[Dirk Gently]

Check out their website - they are not wanting to be involved in building state of the art safe standing stadia are they?

So? That explains why they commissioned the survey, but doesn't affect the validity of the results in any way.

DG - That is a better poll and results mind you - better than your first offering

It's actually the same poll - I've just included all of it. Mind you, I have got another 44 pages of good, strong, evidence if required.....

Paul, can I ask you a couple of straightforward yes/no questions, because I think you're not "getting" what I'm actually arguing for.

I personally can't and don't support standing in areas designed for seating, and I can't see that the "let's stand up anyway" approach is helpful or reasonable whilst many who don't want to stand or who can't stand are in with the same group of supporters. I support standing in properly designed "safe-standing" areas - the "German model" - which I appreciate will require a change in Government regulation.

1. Do you agree that there are significant numbers of people who want to stand at football matches, for whatever reason? Maybe not the majority, but certainly significant numbers.

2. Do you agree that if there were different areas of grounds configured for safe standing and for sitting, so that each group was kept separate, then things would be a lot better? Not only would those who choose to stand not be forcing those who can't/don't want to to do the same, but the major issue of confrontation between supporters and stewards would also be removed?