England - the future....

[South Coast Royal]

Kane yesterday moaning about "only" having 3 weeks off after these upcoming games before pre-season and this after having had 2 weeks of light training after the end of our season.

The players did look tired, apart from Bowen who was very much in the game and did well enough on his debut.
Once people are told that they should be tired they IMHO become tired.

For the rest of his life and from about 5 or 6 years from now Kane &Co will have possibly 50 years or so to get over their tiredness so they really should appreciate what they are getting now in terms of a job that most people would kill for and earnings at a level of not needing to work ever again past 35 if they don't want to.

I know that sports people need to keep fresh but it's not as if players from Hungary, Germany and Italy have had 3 months off before these games, they are surely just as tired
Just get on with it.

[Sutekh]

Jesus that must have been a hard watch for an England fan.
Hungary were really impressive.
Defo penalty for me. Not sure why Channel 4 think it's debatable. James has no intention of getting the ball when the guy has clearly got behind him.
Suspect England fans won't be happy with that. Bowen was awful as well.
Worst performance was Owen as usual.

No idea what you were watching but Hungary were awful and bowen one of our better players

The first sentence remains absolutely spot on

Well if England are to have stinky performances then confining them to this pointless competition would seem to be the right way to go.

[Loafer]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

[Sutekh]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

And is there an English manager who can replace him and do any better?

England thankfully saved all their cr@p and “can’t be arsed” performances for an utterly meaningless competition that is no more than glorified friendlies so it really doesn’t matter.

[Loafer]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

And is there an English manager who can replace him and do any better?

England thankfully saved all their cr@p and “can’t be arsed” performances for an utterly meaningless competition that is no more than glorified friendlies so it really doesn’t matter.

Yes there is.

Steve Cooper.

[windermereROYAL]

Southgate signed a new two year deal not so long ago, like it or not he`s leading the team to Qatar, you feel if we perform badly again he will fall on his sword.

[windermereROYAL]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

And is there an English manager who can replace him and do any better?

England thankfully saved all their cr@p and “can’t be arsed” performances for an utterly meaningless competition that is no more than glorified friendlies so it really doesn’t matter.

Yes there is.

Steve Cooper.

A manager that has never managed in the PL up till now to manage the national team?

[Stranded]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

No he doesn't and anyone judging him on the last 4 games is a bit of a fool.

This Nations League should not be happening and these 4 games have been squeezed in by UEFA to keep the cash cow ticking over when it would have made more sense to pause it and pick it up again in '23 or '24. These are the games that would have been played in the October and November windows taken up by the World Cup.

As a result of playing it, you now have a randomly lopsided competition where those who have made the World Cup are treating the games as if they are friendlies, trying out new formations, giving out debuts to players on the edge of the squad and seeing what does/doesn't work.

Why? Because the space they generally have for warm up games where these sort of risks can be taken has gone.

On the other side, sides that haven't made it, such as Hungary are going full pelt at this as they see possibly their only chance to do well in it - who would have had Hungary top of the group after 4 games?

As a result of both of those factors, you get results like last night and France also being bottom of their group because managers are having to treat these like friendlies. If that game had really mattered last night, do you really think England line up as they did?

So yeah, it was awful but meh - weakened team playing a match that shouldn't have even been taking place and only is because of the need to make money. There really should have been little to no football this month - maybe 2 friendlies at best that would have been finished with over a week ago.

I don't care what some thing but playing a full season, going straight into a training camp for 4 games which overlap some clubs returning to pre-season training (some German clubs are back already) or just about to, with a season that starts early but is being compressed to fit in a Winter WC is going to cause players to get injured and be tired. Remember being "tired" isn't like you or me having a late night and managing to struggle through a day at the desk - tired here is not being at the optimum or close to it where you are more likely to make poor choices on the pitch. Players can and do perform in that state but the more players who are like that, the more likely you are to lose a game.

[Loafer]

And is there an English manager who can replace him and do any better?

England thankfully saved all their cr@p and “can’t be arsed” performances for an utterly meaningless competition that is no more than glorified friendlies so it really doesn’t matter.

Yes there is.

Steve Cooper.

A manager that has never managed in the PL up till now to manage the national team?

Please remind me, when did Southgate manage in the Premier League before he was England boss?

What credentials did he have beforehand that suggest Steve Cooper is better or worse?

[Sanguine]

Barney Ronay has it spot on in the Guardian.

'England fans finally have a stick to beat Gareth Southgate with'.

There were shouts of genuine rage, of betrayal. This has, of course, been the backdrop to much of the last year. Southgate is England’s most successful manager of the modern age. Southgate is a decent, hard working bloke. Southgate has by any measure led England brilliantly.

But England’s fans don’t like Southgate, and even without a stick to beat him, Southgate has been beaten. Even without any record of defeat, only success, he has been labelled a failure. Even on a run of almost constant victory, goals, golden moments, England’s manager has been cast as a fraud and a killjoy.

Well, the public got what it wanted here. Finally some meat, some substance, an actual crime with which to charge the guilty man.

[NathStPaul]

Barney Ronay has it spot on in the Guardian.

'England fans finally have a stick to beat Gareth Southgate with'.

There were shouts of genuine rage, of betrayal. This has, of course, been the backdrop to much of the last year. Southgate is England’s most successful manager of the modern age. Southgate is a decent, hard working bloke. Southgate has by any measure led England brilliantly.

But England’s fans don’t like Southgate, and even without a stick to beat him, Southgate has been beaten. Even without any record of defeat, only success, he has been labelled a failure. Even on a run of almost constant victory, goals, golden moments, England’s manager has been cast as a fraud and a killjoy.

Well, the public got what it wanted here. Finally some meat, some substance, an actual crime with which to charge the guilty man.

The supporters were singing songs about Southgate at 0-0, nothing to do with not liking him. He fcuked up badly last night and rightly got some stick for it along with the players. Southgate himself said he understood the reacton. He can't just accept all the pats on the back when it goes well and then be beyond criticsm when it doesn't, not how life works.

Is Southgate beyond criticsm in your eyes?

[Sanguine]

Barney Ronay has it spot on in the Guardian.

'England fans finally have a stick to beat Gareth Southgate with'.

There were shouts of genuine rage, of betrayal. This has, of course, been the backdrop to much of the last year. Southgate is England’s most successful manager of the modern age. Southgate is a decent, hard working bloke. Southgate has by any measure led England brilliantly.

But England’s fans don’t like Southgate, and even without a stick to beat him, Southgate has been beaten. Even without any record of defeat, only success, he has been labelled a failure. Even on a run of almost constant victory, goals, golden moments, England’s manager has been cast as a fraud and a killjoy.

Well, the public got what it wanted here. Finally some meat, some substance, an actual crime with which to charge the guilty man.

The supporters were singing songs about Southgate at 0-0, nothing to do with not liking him. He fcuked up badly last night and rightly got some stick for it along with the players. Southgate himself said he understood the reacton. He can't just accept all the pats on the back when it goes well and then be beyond criticsm when it doesn't, not how life works.

Is Southgate beyond criticsm in your eyes?

Ronay's piece, and the section above with which I agree in sentiment, is about wider opinion of Southgate's whole tenure. Of course this Nations League campaign has been poor, but (Stranded's point on timing notwithstanding - I doubt France's fans are treating their team the same) this shouldn't call into question Southgate's role, he has been brilliant for England.

He can't just accept all the pats on the back when it goes well and then be beyond criticsm when it doesn't, not how life works.

The point is that he hasn't had anywhere near the deserved volume of pats on the back for what he has achieved with England.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

He rightfully comes in for criticism for last night's performance and to be fair the performances, results and seemingly worrying trends that are developing through the Nations League, especially with the World Cup only being 5 months or so away.

This current spell is giving the anti-Southgate parade a very easy excuse to criticise, where they've rarely had that previously. I've always thought we've needed to be more open and expansive, but you can't argue with a WC semi final and a Euro's final. Yes, disappointing to lose to Croatia and Italy respectively, but we've lost to two good sides there as well, it's not a shock to lose to either, even though many would feel we could/should have beaten both and maybe we would have done playing a different way.

I was talking about this at work the other day, Southgate has been in the job for a number of years now. Before the Nations League began, I thought that this years World Cup might be his last tournament, this Nations League campaign might confirm that as well and it may be an opportunity for someone new to come in and shake the squad up some whilst Southgate can go on to pastures new having earned himself a very decent reputation overall.

[NathStPaul]

Barney Ronay has it spot on in the Guardian.

'England fans finally have a stick to beat Gareth Southgate with'.

There were shouts of genuine rage, of betrayal. This has, of course, been the backdrop to much of the last year. Southgate is England’s most successful manager of the modern age. Southgate is a decent, hard working bloke. Southgate has by any measure led England brilliantly.

But England’s fans don’t like Southgate, and even without a stick to beat him, Southgate has been beaten. Even without any record of defeat, only success, he has been labelled a failure. Even on a run of almost constant victory, goals, golden moments, England’s manager has been cast as a fraud and a killjoy.

Well, the public got what it wanted here. Finally some meat, some substance, an actual crime with which to charge the guilty man.

The supporters were singing songs about Southgate at 0-0, nothing to do with not liking him. He fcuked up badly last night and rightly got some stick for it along with the players. Southgate himself said he understood the reacton. He can't just accept all the pats on the back when it goes well and then be beyond criticsm when it doesn't, not how life works.

Is Southgate beyond criticsm in your eyes?

Ronay's piece, and the section above with which I agree in sentiment, is about wider opinion of Southgate's whole tenure. Of course this Nations League campaign has been poor, but (Stranded's point on timing notwithstanding - I doubt France's fans are treating their team the same) this shouldn't call into question Southgate's role, he has been brilliant for England.

He can't just accept all the pats on the back when it goes well and then be beyond criticsm when it doesn't, not how life works.

The point is that he hasn't had anywhere near the deserved volume of pats on the back for what he has achieved with England.

I would agree there has always been a bit ouf doubt about Southgate, we do seem to go in to each tournament questioning his methods but he has done very well in tournament football which is what is stopping me and most sensible supporters calling for his head. He of course deserves the chance to lead the team into Qatar, if anyone is saying otherwise then they shouldn't be taken seriously.

My major worry is Southgate's cautious approach. We have played Hungary twice in quick succession and not taken the game to them, we have had a strategy to stand off against weaker opposition and be patient which has led to us being caught out. I'd have liked Southgate to try a new style in the recent Nation League matches, be more on the front foot. We have a relatively weak group at the World Cup with teams on a similar level to Hungary, I worry that sitting off and waiting for something to happen will lead to us drawing games or losing to teams who hit us on the break.

[NathStPaul]

He rightfully comes in for criticism for last night's performance and to be fair the performances, results and seemingly worrying trends that are developing through the Nations League, especially with the World Cup only being 5 months or so away.

This current spell is giving the anti-Southgate parade a very easy excuse to criticise, where they've rarely had that previously. I've always thought we've needed to be more open and expansive, but you can't argue with a WC semi final and a Euro's final. Yes, disappointing to lose to Croatia and Italy respectively, but we've lost to two good sides there as well, it's not a shock to lose to either, even though many would feel we could/should have beaten both and maybe we would have done playing a different way.

I was talking about this at work the other day, Southgate has been in the job for a number of years now. Before the Nations League began, I thought that this years World Cup might be his last tournament, this Nations League campaign might confirm that as well and it may be an opportunity for someone new to come in and shake the squad up some whilst Southgate can go on to pastures new having earned himself a very decent reputation overall.

I think it will be his last tournament for England. He deserves a decent club job off the back of it.

[Sanguine]

To be honest one of the things I've found most alarming in these games is Bellingham's inability to impose himself. I've been talking him up as one of Europe's next great midfielders and a nailed on starter in Qatar, but he's looked lost.

[South Coast Royal]

I would agree with Stranded and other poster comments that this is a "meaningless" competition if Southgate hadn't in the past treated ALL games, including friendlies as games to be won rather than as games to trial players and systems.

We do have real problems at the back with the likes of Stones, Maguire and Walker to such an extent that Southgate was very keen (despite recent injuries) to give Guehi and Tomori game time.

Lol @Anton Ferdinand blaming last night's result on the hangover for players from racial abuse last year-that bloke really only has one agenda and can barely put two words together but is part of the "jobs for the boys" with Sky.
Also the 2 Coles on channel 4 were pointless pundits.

Kane , when interviewed after the game , went into Tory-style media mode with his stuff about being good 2 years ago, taking this result on the chin (sorry Harry your dive this time didn't get you a penalty) and "we move on".

So, no goals in open play over 4 games-not great and one of the above 3 pundits said that we will still win the World Cup, can't remember which one.
We might well do, but we might (still doable perhaps with 0-0s but it means converting penalties) have to score goals to do it and a strategy of "give it to Kane" is perhaps a bit limited.

[6ft Kerplunk]

Southgate HAS to go

Abysmal performance

And is there an English manager who can replace him and do any better?

England thankfully saved all their cr@p and “can’t be arsed” performances for an utterly meaningless competition that is no more than glorified friendlies so it really doesn’t matter.

Yes there is.

Steve Cooper.

The very Welsh Steve Cooper or is there another one I've missed?

[NathStPaul]

[6ft Kerplunk]

Please remind me, when did Southgate manage in the Premier League before he was England boss?

Middlesbrough 2006-2009, admittedly didn't end well for him.