Blueprint for future international success

[sheshnu]

Except that they've won about as much as England.

Given the size of population - a different story, maybe.

15 million Dutch always around the same level as 50 million English. Someone's doing it wrong, surely?

[Royal Rother]

Factor in how much money we have compared to the Dutch clubs as well....

[SpaceCruiser]

As it goes, there is some strange satisfaction to be gained from not seeing us at Euro 2008

What a w@nker you are.

[Royal Rother]

Thanks for your contribution to an intelligent discussion.

[papereyes]

As an aside - maybe take a look at what Wales and Scotland are doing in terms of a getting a sustainable feed of talent. Fine, they're not as successful as England, but with populations about a 10th of the size, they really shouldn't be. Wales almost qualified for Euro 2004 with a good side that was, basically, too old. Once players like Speed, Hartson and Savage moved on, there was nothing beneath that core of the side. So the manager has gone back and brought through younger players, getting them involved at a younger age. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Scotland's similar - went younger, tried to get the players through with experience gained. They have to keep it up, stop chopping and changing managers and squads.

Its a long term solution to what is often perceived as a short term problem.

[Hoop Blah]

Except that they've won about as much as England.

Given the size of population - a different story, maybe.

15 million Dutch always around the same level as 50 million English. Someone's doing it wrong, surely?

You can only pick so many players though, and there comes a point where population (and the economies of scale that go with it) don't really help you out.

I think the Dutch knack of creating gifted ball players with lot of technical ability is as much down to their national culture as it is their method of coaching. It also means that they don't work very well as a squad which, much like the Spanish, means they self destruct when the going gets tough. The Dutch are pretty carefree and flamboyant as a race. Their players reflect that.

Germany produce good athelete's with sound technique but they don't produce many genuine flair players. Although it's a sterotype, they suceed where we don't by efficiently maximising a lot of that talent. It's engrained in their football and their culture to grind away and get a result.

Brazil produce an abundance of gifted attacking players. There seems to be an endless supply (helped by the sheer number of players) of these flair players who learn their skills on the streets and beaches. They just go out and beat teams with their indiviuals attacking quality.

Perhaps our players are over coached because we've had an endless desire to produce better players. Perhaps we need to, like Vision, said get back to letting kids play and develop skills on the streets. Culturally we've changed though. Kids don't play out on the streets like the used to. Football, like a lot of our society, has been sterilised and structured. Perhaps a lot of kids have it too easy now and there isn't the breeding ground of working class kids who see football as a way out of the mines like there was 50 years ago. That hardy desire and commitment that made previous generations just isnt there anymore because mediocre players are rewarded so handsomely for limited success.

None of that really solves the problem though RR, so I'll shut up now!

[Hoop Blah]

As an aside - maybe take a look at what Wales and Scotland are doing in terms of a getting a sustainable feed of talent. Fine, they're not as successful as England, but with populations about a 10th of the size, they really shouldn't be. Wales almost qualified for Euro 2004 with a good side that was, basically, too old.

It's much easier to have relative success at that level though isn't it?

They also pretty much have the pick of Englands cast off's, so their limited population is a bit of a red herring.

[sheshnu]

As an aside - maybe take a look at what Wales and Scotland are doing in terms of a getting a sustainable feed of talent. Fine, they're not as successful as England, but with populations about a 10th of the size, they really shouldn't be. Wales almost qualified for Euro 2004 with a good side that was, basically, too old.

It's much easier to have relative success at that level though isn't it?

They also pretty much have the pick of Englands cast off's, so their limited population is a bit of a red herring.

While that might in general be true with Ireland, it's not really the case with Wales and Scotland. In fact I'd struggle to think of a good Welsh or Scottish international who is actually English (Murty aside, of course ).

[papereyes]

As an aside - maybe take a look at what Wales and Scotland are doing in terms of a getting a sustainable feed of talent. Fine, they're not as successful as England, but with populations about a 10th of the size, they really shouldn't be. Wales almost qualified for Euro 2004 with a good side that was, basically, too old.

It's much easier to have relative success at that level though isn't it?

They also pretty much have the pick of Englands cast off's, so their limited population is a bit of a red herring.

While that might in general be true with Ireland, it's not really the case with Wales and Scotland. In fact I'd struggle to think of a good Welsh or Scottish international who is actually English (Murty aside, of course ).

Someone's gonna say Ryan Giggs.

[Hoop Blah]

As an aside - maybe take a look at what Wales and Scotland are doing in terms of a getting a sustainable feed of talent. Fine, they're not as successful as England, but with populations about a 10th of the size, they really shouldn't be. Wales almost qualified for Euro 2004 with a good side that was, basically, too old.

It's much easier to have relative success at that level though isn't it?

They also pretty much have the pick of Englands cast off's, so their limited population is a bit of a red herring.

While that might in general be true with Ireland, it's not really the case with Wales and Scotland. In fact I'd struggle to think of a good Welsh or Scottish international who is actually English (Murty aside, of course ).

The Irish exploited it more yes, but just looking at the current squad and their birth places (as I really have no work to do!) and the following Welsh players were born in England: Carl Fletcher, Sam Ricketts, Lewis Price, Andrew Crofts, Lewin Nyatanga, Daniel Nardiello, Sam Vokes, Freddy Eastwood (depends where the caravan was parked up), plus Boaz Myhil who is a Yank of course.

The Scots had or have had recently: James Morrison, James McEveley, Graham Alexander, Nigel Quashie, plus of course Murty.

Neither are really calling on the first teir of rejects like the Irish did with the plastic paddy's of the Jack Charlton era, but taking the birth place as a bit of an indicator of nationality (by no means definitive I know) it shows how they can spread their net a bit further than just their actual populations, perhaps without actually going down the grandparent qualification route because so many Scots and Welsh live outside of their home country.

I still think it's easier to almost qualify, or qualify, and so suceed at their level, than it is to get into a final or even a semi-final which would be a success for England.

How Scotland produced the quality and quantity of players back in the 70's and 80's is a bit of a mystery though. Perhaps it was because the social climate and football was their way of entertaining themselves and also a route to personal improvement.

[soggy biscuit]

Germany produce good athelete's with sound technique but they don't produce many genuine flair players. Although it's a sterotype, they suceed where we don't by efficiently maximising a lot of that talent. It's engrained in their football and their culture to grind away and get a result.

I was explaining the English view of German football to a German the other day and they said they were aware of how England views them and it was very different to how any other nation views them. He said it actually angers a lot of Germans that we see them as maybe not as good as other countries but through workrate, team ethic etc they always manage to succeed. He was German so obviously had somewhat of a biased view but he came out with loads of facts and figures about their players and their achievments and generally said that the English had a very wierd view of the German team and that no matter what they achieve we will simply always dismiss them as just being a team that plays well as unit etc rather than actually having some of the best players.

[Hoop Blah]

Germans are like that though!

I do think they produce some excellent player, don't get me wrong. But they're much more like us than the Dutch or Spanish. They produce lots of efficient and effective players, with very good technical ability too I might add, but very few flair players in comparison to the latin countries and the Dutch.

Their football is generally a bit dull and methodical though!

[Vision]

The current German side (certainly from the evidence of the last World Cup and since) seems to buck that stereotype. Though if i was of a mischevious nature i might point out thats due to the number of players of Polish descent in the current line up.

I guess as regards England there isn't really 1 defining factor as to why we've only reached 1 major final despite having what is perceived to be one of the major leagues in the World. Maybe we just fall a bit under the weight of knock-out football (penalties!!). Perhaps if World Champions were decided on a world league basis over a 2 year period we might have fared better.

Steven Gerrard is a great example of the conundrums of England in general.

He's a very highly paid individual but i don't think he would fall under the category of "not caring" or not giving 100% in an England shirt.

He has come through an Academy system in his local city and has remained loyal (albeit with a few near misses) to his local club.

The influx of foreign players never held him back in terms of his progress with Liverpool and he has benefited from foreign coaching methods at his club.

The big occasion doesn't faze him as he's performed admirably in major finals for his club in the past.

I doubt there's anyone (Harold excepted) that would argue he's anything other than a very fine footballer.

Yet at International football when it really matters, "inconsistent" would be the kindest word you could use.

In some ways i guess its the nature and tempo of English domestic football that counts against him. He's the most guilty of squandering possession than most England players usually because he's trying the killer pass more often than most. At club football its encouraged, he is afterall (before Torres arrival anyway) the main man and the side is geared around him producing. But equally like most of the English players in the big 4 he knows that giving the ball away most weeks in the Premier League doesn't carry the same consequences as it does in the International arena because the personnel playing alongside are a higher calibre relatively than their opponents. The whole mindset and dynamic is different and at International level he, like many other highly paid and much feted individuals struggles to come to terms with it. I find it interesting that as a comparison Frank Lampard has never been the same player for England once Chelsea won the title in 2004/05 (Jose's first season) .

Not sure any of the above proves anything but i find it interesting.

[Hoop Blah]

The current German side (certainly from the evidence of the last World Cup and since) seems to buck that stereotype. Though if i was of a mischevious nature i might point out thats due to the number of players of Polish descent in the current line up.

They certainly became a more free flowing attacking side under Klinsmann at the World Cup. Interesting that in the build up nobody in Germany (aparently) gave them any chance of doing well because they'd been rubbish up until then. It seems as though they've carried that on after Klinsmann left.

I still don't see much in the way of flair in their side though. Apart from Schweinsteiger maybe they're not tricky and inventive ball players like Schneider, Ronaldo or Ribery. They're still players pretty similar to those we churn out reasonably well over here, they're just not scared of playing like our lot and don't bottle penalties.

I find it interesting that as a comparison Frank Lampard has never been the same player for England once Chelsea won the title in 2004/05 (jose's fisrt season) .

And Rooney hasn't looked half the player for England since he joined Utd.

[11.30 from paddington]

Vision's comments about Gerrard are interesting, particular when you compare him against another England underachiever - John Barnes.

One reason Barnes has given for his mediocre displays for his country is the following: At club level, Liverpool always had the majority of possession, so he would get the ball more and be able to produce some magic. If things didn't work, it wouldn't matter, because he would get the ball back from a team mate 2 minutes later, and could try again.

At international level, Barnes had far less of the ball. If he (or any player lost it) they could say goodbye to possession for the next 15 minutes!

As other posters have pointed out, we have to work at keeping possession, alongside not panicking when we haven't worked an opening straight away. I'm pleased to see Capello has addressed this.

So to answer the original question I think we need to do the following:
- A concentration on skill, possession and expression at youth football. Far less competition, until their teen years, and no more 'competitive parents' screaming at their offspring from the sidelines. Allow the kids to make mistakes. Maybe introduce Futsal more widely.
- Enact the old cliche of letting the game be the teacher. This may sound a little oxymoronic, but we need to coach intelligent players who can work things out for themselves during a game.
- As another poster said, encourage more English players and coaches to ply their trade abroad. However, this may require our education system to start teaching foreign languages at 8 years old, rather than waiting until seconday school.

Interesting thread by the way.

[soggy biscuit]

According to Fernando Torres our defenders lack defensive positionnig and instead rely on being physically strong, reckons this makes them easier to play against

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/8211712/Carvalho-best-of-bad-bunch---Torres