Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

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cmonurz
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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by cmonurz » 26 Jun 2012 10:37

Ideal
shadesrwrf Once upon a time there were restrictions on the number of foreign players a club could employ. It meant that teams had to invest in and nurture home grown talent, and as a consequence the England manager had a far wider choice of top flight players. These days it's all about making a fast buck. Why spend money developing English players when you can buy in the finished article from somewhere else?


^THIS^

2ndly if you buy the foreign player, he isn't going to have the "English drinking mentality", where he does a Joey Barton/Hughes-the-murderer/Troy Deeney/"insert name here there are too many" while drunk, and is more likely to take tactical instructions, train well, and generally will be easier to deal with.

Why were the scandinavian players in the 90s such a big success in England?
Not first and foremost because they had some exceptional footballing ability, but because they were level-headed people, trained hard, improved their abilities and performed well, they ate healthy food and didn't eat all the pies, and didn't get locked up for GBH/Affray.

Why were several exceptionally skilled players such massive failures during the same time?
Because they drink, have mental issues, eat all the pies, don't train hard, increasing their risk of injury etc.

England need to have a look at:
-how many foreign players should be allowed
-what kind of attitudes towards eating, training, and accepting tactical instructions, that are instilled into young players
-instilling healthy values into their youths so they do not go overboard with excessive drinking, that means ALL youths not just footballers

Also sometimes the best players as kids are not best as adults. In Norway we accept this as fact and do not "sharpen" the competition for kids until they are a lot older than what happens in England. We call this a "broadspan sports" approach.
This allows for people who are serious about their professionalism and training to develop at a stage where they would have long since been dropped by English sides.



It has always struck me that the rule around ‘home-grown’ players fails what should be it’s primary purpose, to develop and promote English talent through academies and youth setups into first team squads, by allowing clubs to assign ‘home-grown’ status to foreign players who have been in the setup for a certain period or from a certain age. Excluding players under a certain age from squad limits does much the same, although I can see it’s value in ensuring clubs can maintain a comprehensive youth and reserve setup.

As already mentioned, there should be a strict and relatively small number of non-British players in a club’s named league squad, say 7 or 8. But what does EU employment law say about that?

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by royal tee » 26 Jun 2012 10:54

shadesrwrf Once upon a time there were restrictions on the number of foreign players a club could employ. It meant that teams had to invest in and nurture home grown talent, and as a consequence the England manager had a far wider choice of top flight players. These days it's all about making a fast buck. Why spend money developing English players when you can buy in the finished article from somewhere else?


The restrictions on home-grown players made all the difference in the 70's & 80's to how England performed on the world stage didn't it :|

It's not the top end that is the problem. Its the coaching of kids and more specifically the philosophy towards the coaching of kids that is the issue and where there needs to be a fundamental re-think. If the players are good enough then they will get into teams at a top level and will benefit from playing at that level with world class players from around the world. The issue is getting the kids good enough in the first place at a technical level.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Hoop Blah » 26 Jun 2012 11:20

As Kitsondinho said on one of the other threads, and others have said elsewhere, it doesn't appear to be an issue with ability but the mental toughness to see the job through and to perform when the real pressure is on.

I still think we have players capable enough to cause the best teams problems and to hold our own, but there appears to be something stopping that happening all too often.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Barry the bird boggler » 26 Jun 2012 12:09

England've won 1 of the 8 penalty shootouts they've been involved in, that's even worse than Reading....

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by T.R.O.L.I. » 26 Jun 2012 12:14

Thought it was one from seven for England:

Won: Spain '96
Lost: Germany '90, Germany '96, Argentina '98, Portugal '04, Portugal '06, Italy '12?

AFAICR, aren't RFC played 4 won 3? Beat Cov in the Simod Cup, Beat Cardiff (?) at EP in the FA Cup, West Ham at MS in the League Cup and lost to Darlo at the MS in the LC?


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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Maguire » 26 Jun 2012 12:27

T.R.O.L.I. Thought it was one from seven for England:

Won: Spain '96
Lost: Germany '90, Germany '96, Argentina '98, Portugal '04, Portugal '06, Italy '12?

AFAICR, aren't RFC played 4 won 3? Beat Cov in the Simod Cup, Beat Cardiff (?) at EP in the FA Cup, West Ham at MS in the League Cup and lost to Darlo at the MS in the LC?


Lost to Walsall in the FA Cup in front of the South Stand too.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by 3 veesinarow » 26 Jun 2012 12:40

We beat Darlo on pens, so it's still 4 out of 5 wins - a very good conversion rate, I'd say, and one that blows apart the fantastically inept attempt at dragging RFC down by BTBB.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Maguire » 26 Jun 2012 13:18

3 veesinarow We beat Darlo on pens, so it's still 4 out of 5 wins - a very good conversion rate, I'd say, and one that blows apart the fantastically inept attempt at dragging RFC down by BTBB.


Oh I thought he meant Northampton, just skim read it.

We lost to Northampton Town at the MS in a shootout.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Ark Royal » 26 Jun 2012 14:33

Ideal
shadesrwrf Once upon a time there were restrictions on the number of foreign players a club could employ. It meant that teams had to invest in and nurture home grown talent, and as a consequence the England manager had a far wider choice of top flight players. These days it's all about making a fast buck. Why spend money developing English players when you can buy in the finished article from somewhere else?


^THIS^

2ndly if you buy the foreign player, he isn't going to have the "English drinking mentality", where he does a Joey Barton/Hughes-the-murderer/Troy Deeney/"insert name here there are too many" while drunk, and is more likely to take tactical instructions, train well, and generally will be easier to deal with.

Why were the scandinavian players in the 90s such a big success in England?
Not first and foremost because they had some exceptional footballing ability, but because they were level-headed people, trained hard, improved their abilities and performed well, they ate healthy food and didn't eat all the pies, and didn't get locked up for GBH/Affray.

Why were several exceptionally skilled players such massive failures during the same time?
Because they drink, have mental issues, eat all the pies, don't train hard, increasing their risk of injury etc.

England need to have a look at:
-how many foreign players should be allowed
-what kind of attitudes towards eating, training, and accepting tactical instructions, that are instilled into young players
-instilling healthy values into their youths so they do not go overboard with excessive drinking, that means ALL youths not just footballers

Also sometimes the best players as kids are not best as adults. In Norway we accept this as fact and do not "sharpen" the competition for kids until they are a lot older than what happens in England. We call this a "broadspan sports" approach.
This allows for people who are serious about their professionalism and training to develop at a stage where they would have long since been dropped by English sides.


That is because Jan Molby had eaten them all before anyone else had a chance.


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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Vision » 26 Jun 2012 14:44

Ark Royal
Ideal
shadesrwrf Once upon a time there were restrictions on the number of foreign players a club could employ. It meant that teams had to invest in and nurture home grown talent, and as a consequence the England manager had a far wider choice of top flight players. These days it's all about making a fast buck. Why spend money developing English players when you can buy in the finished article from somewhere else?


^THIS^

2ndly if you buy the foreign player, he isn't going to have the "English drinking mentality", where he does a Joey Barton/Hughes-the-murderer/Troy Deeney/"insert name here there are too many" while drunk, and is more likely to take tactical instructions, train well, and generally will be easier to deal with.

Why were the scandinavian players in the 90s such a big success in England?
Not first and foremost because they had some exceptional footballing ability, but because they were level-headed people, trained hard, improved their abilities and performed well, they ate healthy food and didn't eat all the pies, and didn't get locked up for GBH/Affray.

Why were several exceptionally skilled players such massive failures during the same time?
Because they drink, have mental issues, eat all the pies, don't train hard, increasing their risk of injury etc.

England need to have a look at:
-how many foreign players should be allowed
-what kind of attitudes towards eating, training, and accepting tactical instructions, that are instilled into young players
-instilling healthy values into their youths so they do not go overboard with excessive drinking, that means ALL youths not just footballers

Also sometimes the best players as kids are not best as adults. In Norway we accept this as fact and do not "sharpen" the competition for kids until they are a lot older than what happens in England. We call this a "broadspan sports" approach.
This allows for people who are serious about their professionalism and training to develop at a stage where they would have long since been dropped by English sides.


That is because Jan Molby had eaten them all before anyone else had a chance.


Tomas Brolin found a way around it mind.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Mr Angry » 26 Jun 2012 15:40

I don't think that Germany, Spain, Italy or Portugal have any restrictions on which nationality the players that their league clubs can buy, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Maybe having fewer clubs in their top division, so the top players play fewer games might have a more significant bearing; the England players looked shot by extra time.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Ian Royal » 26 Jun 2012 15:47

Mr Angry I don't think that Germany, Spain, Italy or Portugal have any restrictions on which nationality the players that their league clubs can buy, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Maybe having fewer clubs in their top division, so the top players play fewer games might have a more significant bearing; the England players looked shot by extra time.

Didn't I hear Barcelona played 60 games last season?

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Mr Angry » 26 Jun 2012 15:48

Ian Royal
Mr Angry I don't think that Germany, Spain, Italy or Portugal have any restrictions on which nationality the players that their league clubs can buy, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Maybe having fewer clubs in their top division, so the top players play fewer games might have a more significant bearing; the England players looked shot by extra time.

Didn't I hear Barcelona played 60 games last season?


What did they win?


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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Ian Royal » 26 Jun 2012 15:56

Mr Angry
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Mr Angry I don't think that Germany, Spain, Italy or Portugal have any restrictions on which nationality the players that their league clubs can buy, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Maybe having fewer clubs in their top division, so the top players play fewer games might have a more significant bearing; the England players looked shot by extra time.

Didn't I hear Barcelona played 60 games last season?


What did they win?

I did hear they were award a trophy... can't remember what it was for though... it wasn't a shiny one... had a sort of dull hue to it.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Barry the bird boggler » 26 Jun 2012 15:57

T.R.O.L.I. Thought it was one from seven for England:

Won: Spain '96
Lost: Germany '90, Germany '96, Argentina '98, Portugal '04, Portugal '06, Italy '12?

AFAICR, aren't RFC played 4 won 3? Beat Cov in the Simod Cup, Beat Cardiff (?) at EP in the FA Cup, West Ham at MS in the League Cup and lost to Darlo at the MS in the LC?


Wasn't there also a penalty shootout v Belgium back in 98 or 99 in some silly cup tournament in north africa somewhere that we lost.

Reading lost to Northampton not Darlington in the LC, they were also done over at Exeter in the Tonka Toy Trophy (or whatever it was called then) back in 1992 or something.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by sheshnu » 26 Jun 2012 16:04

Mr Angry I don't think that Germany, Spain, Italy or Portugal have any restrictions on which nationality the players that their league clubs can buy, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.


The German league has a similar rule to the English one in place, and I think the Portuguese league does as well. Pretty sure there are limits to the number of non-EU players that Spanish and Italian teams can have in their squads (but er, don't quote me on that).

As you rightly point out, it has played a role in those countries developing strong national teams.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Hoop Blah » 26 Jun 2012 17:20

Mr Angry
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Mr Angry Maybe having fewer clubs in their top division, so the top players play fewer games might have a more significant bearing; the England players looked shot by extra time.

Didn't I hear Barcelona played 60 games last season?


What did they win?


Give it a few days and we'll see how tired they look and what they might win despite all those games.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by Mr Angry » 27 Jun 2012 11:05

Mmmm - which country is Messi representing in the Euro's again??

I'm sure his 72 goals last season (50 in La Liga) may have had something to do with Barcelona's success in the, er, Spanish Cup (a tournament on a par with the Johnstons Paint Trophy)

Also, lets not forget that you have to be reasonably good to play for teams like Barcelona & Real Madrid; if you are average and kanckered, I would say that it stands to reason that you are going to play less well than a player who is brilliant and slightly less knackered.

If England were serious about having a half decent crack at major championships, then the Premier League needs to be cut to 16 clubs, and a mid winter break instigated (with key players not allowed to be taken by their clubs for money spinning friendlies across the world in the break); some sort of central contract arrangement similar to how cricket works - and which has helped England to be the #1 ranked Test and T20 nation in the World btw - would be great, but I can't see the Premier League ever agreeing to that, because club football will always take precedence over International success.

It would also appear that Scott Parker needs an operation on his achilles now; rather sums it up imho.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... njury.html

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by southbank1871 » 27 Jun 2012 11:27

Never really understood why people think a mid season break would work in this country. It's very likely that the weather during the break would be quite mild and then when the season started up again, we'd be hit with two weeks of snow and ice. It's just not feasible.

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Re: Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

by blindedbythelights » 27 Jun 2012 12:12


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