Hillsborough

[Big Foot]

Can't w8 to see 40,000 Scousers baying for 40,000 Chelsea at the final, incensed by the chanting and booing today

[3 veesinarow]

Well you're hardly going to have queues of Scousers admitting to (tick applicable boxes)

Entrance without a ticket
Going to wrong section
Pushing from the back to get in
Fighting police who were trying to stop crush
Jumping over people to get in
etc etc

Says Jibbers FC, who act like this at every away ground they visit.

[Dare to Dr£am]

Well you're hardly going to have queues of Scousers admitting to (tick applicable boxes)

Entrance without a ticket
Going to wrong section
Pushing from the back to get in
Fighting police who were trying to stop crush
Jumping over people to get in
etc etc

You're a tool. Not much else to add really.

[LWJ]

quoting the taylor report doesnt really help an argument. load of bollox written to appease scousers frothing at the mouth for blood

I'm sure neither you or the wum can be bothered, but if you took the time to watch/listen to the witness accounts of the events of that day you will see that that is an accurate statement of events.

I had to study this in college, and we listened to every single bit of evidence available to the public. The police were at fault for how they acted initially in opening the gates, but no one can deny that the Liverpool fans were at fault as well, and in their quest to get 'justice' they hate anyone who suggests poor old Liverpool did something wrong.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Er the police failed because they opened the gates, but only because there was a crush outside, and the Liverpool fans (some drunk, some not, some without tickets some with) piled in. Then pushed into one pen even though it was full. When you are waiting for a tube, and the carriage gets full so you can't get through the door, do you pile in, or find another carriage?

You've never been in a big crowd in a confined space, I take it?

The people at the back of the crush would have had no sense of the pressure up ahead. It's why people die in cushes. It's not as if those at the back would have been pushing like crazy. Given the right conditions, and enough people, even a mild force gets amplified when you have people so close that they can't move, and can't control their movements.

[Wimb]

Er the police failed because they opened the gates, but only because there was a crush outside, and the Liverpool fans (some drunk, some not, some without tickets some with) piled in. Then pushed into one pen even though it was full. When you are waiting for a tube, and the carriage gets full so you can't get through the door, do you pile in, or find another carriage?

You've never been in a big crowd in a confined space, I take it?

The people at the back of the crush would have had no sense of the pressure up ahead. It's why people die in cushes. It's not as if those at the back would have been pushing like crazy. Given the right conditions, and enough people, even a mild force gets amplified when you have people so close that they can't move, and can't control their movements.

^^^^

I can't say I've had it on the terraces but having been near the front of a fair few gigs in my time I can attest to the utter helplessness you find yourself in on occassion.

Having also seen what things are like at the back of the room/stage/tent it's also easy to see why the people pushing at the back have no idea what is going on at the front.

If the families of the 96 want justice then I hope they get all of the facts that are possibly available. It's the least bit of consolation they deserve for losing a loved one at a bloody football match.

[handbags_harris]

Er the police failed because they opened the gates, but only because there was a crush outside, and the Liverpool fans (some drunk, some not, some without tickets some with) piled in. Then pushed into one pen even though it was full. When you are waiting for a tube, and the carriage gets full so you can't get through the door, do you pile in, or find another carriage?

You've never been in a big crowd in a confined space, I take it?

The people at the back of the crush would have had no sense of the pressure up ahead. It's why people die in cushes. It's not as if those at the back would have been pushing like crazy. Given the right conditions, and enough people, even a mild force gets amplified when you have people so close that they can't move, and can't control their movements.

I would also add to this that it seems lwj has never been to Hillsborough, specifically the Leppings Lane End. Very little has actually changed to the layout of the lower tier since 1989 in plan terms. There is absolutely no way a fan could have known how full the middle TWO pens were (it was two pens full, not one which you stated earlier - discredits your knowledge somewhat that doesn't it?). There is absolutely no viewpoint of the pitch from behind the stand except when you enter the tunnel that leads to the terraces and that hasn't changed even now (see the image below ripped off Wikipedia). Once in the central tunnel the view is straight ahead on to the pitch, so those coming in could see the pitch over people's heads and instinctively tried to move forward. The good Reverend has it spot on here where he says those at the back would have no sense of the pressure ahead. If you've ever walked through the middle tunnel of the Leppings Lane End then you very quickly begin to understand just how a crush can develop in such a short space of time.

And let's not fail to acknowledge that Hillsborough should never have been used as a Semi-final venue due to the fact that it didn't have a valid safety certificate at the time of the match.

[T.R.O.L.I.]

Good post, handbags - in particular this part:

If you've ever walked through the middle tunnel of the Leppings Lane End then you very quickly begin to understand just how a crush can develop in such a short space of time.

[Extended-Phenotype]

I think if you are going to comment with any authority on this matter, you really need to understand 2 things.

1. In a human crush, the application of pressure is minimal at the back of the crowd but amplifies exponentially towards the front. It is impossible for those at the back to appreciate what minimal pressure is doing to those at the front.

2. The reason that the liability of Liverpool fans is being eased, is that they didn’t react or behave in a manor any different to any crowd, a behaviour which is studied and understood by most people who manage them. They really shouldn’t be thought of in these contexts as “Liverpool fans”, but as “people”.

Football crowds consist of people who don’t want to miss the game, who may have had a drink, who may not have bought tickets and who are subject to the same herd behaviour and crush factors as any other crowd of people.

You only have to look through history to see the thousands of examples of human crushes from all walks of life, be it football or other sports, rock concerts, train stations, airports, festivals and carnivals – events where crowds consist of people just like Hillsborough, to see there is nothing special about the Liverpool fans that day.

Those in charge are supposed to be qualified in dealing with crowds of people and accounting for these characteristics in their plans and actions.

The Liverpool fans behaved like people, in a crowd.

The authorities behaved negligently, before, during and after, leading to the deaths of 96 people, and then tried to cover it up.


I’m not sure why anybody is concerning themselves with blaming Liverpool fans, i.e. people – you, me, your folks and friends, along with the good and the bad in any cross-section of society, for a disaster which would have been avoided if managed competently.

I’m not sure what point anybody who overlooks this is trying to make.

[RobRoyal]

Excellent posts HH and E-P.

[Royal With Cheese]

+1 to that.

[Friday's Legacy]

I think if you are going to comment with any authority on this matter, you really need to understand 2 things.

1. In a human crush, the application of pressure is minimal at the back of the crowd but amplifies exponentially towards the front. It is impossible for those at the back to appreciate what minimal pressure is doing to those at the front.

2. The reason that the liability of Liverpool fans is being eased, is that they didn’t react or behave in a manor any different to any crowd, a behaviour which is studied and understood by most people who manage them. They really shouldn’t be thought of in these contexts as “Liverpool fans”, but as “people”.

Football crowds consist of people who don’t want to miss the game, who may have had a drink, who may not have bought tickets and who are subject to the same herd behaviour and crush factors as any other crowd of people.

You only have to look through history to see the thousands of examples of human crushes from all walks of life, be it football or other sports, rock concerts, train stations, airports, festivals and carnivals – events where crowds consist of people just like Hillsborough, to see there is nothing special about the Liverpool fans that day.

Those in charge are supposed to be qualified in dealing with crowds of people and accounting for these characteristics in their plans and actions.

The Liverpool fans behaved like people, in a crowd.

The authorities behaved negligently, before, during and after, leading to the deaths of 96 people, and then tried to cover it up.


I’m not sure why anybody is concerning themselves with blaming Liverpool fans, i.e. people – you, me, your folks and friends, along with the good and the bad in any cross-section of society, for a disaster which would have been avoided if managed competently.

I’m not sure what point anybody who overlooks this is trying to make.

Superb post, and handbags_harris as well.

[No Fixed Abode]

Can't w8 to see 40,000 Scousers baying for 40,000 Chelsea at the final, incensed by the chanting and booing today

FA were partly to blame for that minute silence debacle yesterday, making it a 6pm kick off.

[RobRoyal]

Can't w8 to see 40,000 Scousers baying for 40,000 Chelsea at the final, incensed by the chanting and booing today

FA were partly to blame for that minute silence debacle yesterday, making it a 6pm kick off.

Nice one.

[The Prisoner]

I have always been quite uneasy with Hillsborough, not only for the fact that nobody should die going to a football match, but also for the spiritualism that surrounds the whole thing.

There are loads of great posts on here about the actions of a crowd in a crush scenario and the faults of the Police. I am convinced that the Liverpool fans did not add to their own demise - come on, who didn't have a few beers before the play-off final last year?

But what had to be learned has largely been learned. We had the Taylor Enquiry which changed the face of football stadia in the UK as a direct result of Hillsborough.

The Justice for the 96 campaign centres on the fact that no blame has been officially attributed and that nobody has been brought before the courts (other than a failed private case against two of the officers in command that day). But honestly what would a show trial achieve now? Somebody somewhere who works or worked for South Yorkshire Police made a fateful decision that day. In all honesty I very much doubt they made the decision hoping people would die and I am sure they would privately tell you their daily and hourly remorse for having done what they did. It was clearly and simply the wrong decision made (probably) in ignorance, and they have had to live with that for the rest of their lives.

And ignorance is the key word. A failure to understand the cause and effect of what seemed to be an isolated, even justifiable decision to open the gates and get some public order off the streets. We all might have done it.

I hope the forthcoming agreement for Government to release previously hidden material to the Hillsborough Independent Panel starts to bring some closure to the families, but the reality is we all know there has been some degree of cover-up to protect people in high places who clearly made mistakes. After 23 years the chance for a witch hunt has gone. The Taylor Report blamed "the failure of Police control" all those years ago.

We need to give the families and the witch hunters what they want - a full and unreserved apology from South Yorkshire Police. The irony is that it will be meaningless because the people involved 23 years ago will have long since gone, and the lessons have been learned. Sure, SYP will need to put some serious cash aside for the relatives, but in the context of budgets this won't be a King's ransom (and I don't know what the families have already been paid).

At the moment we still have this strange mutant vision of Hillsborough. Time has almost romanticised it in that the longer it goes as an unpunished and unaccountable event the more it has become a focal point for the "us vs them" camp. I only have to point to the Suarez racism debacle to show the might of the Liverpool fans in wishing to defend their corner - my Facebook new feed was clogged up for days by them making out that Evra was the villain in pretty vociferous fashion.

If someone doesn't say sorry for Hillsborough and eat some proper humble pie the band wagon is just going to keep rolling. Most of the people wearing the JFT96 t-shirts and posting it on social networking sites weren't even born 23 years ago and they are building a shrine to something they don't even understand (if anyone under 23 reading this has stood on a very large terrace in an old ground feel free to argue).

We live in an age where people "like" causes - and social networking helps them spread like wild fire. You only had to see the Kony video or the woman swearing on the tram and how quickly those band wagons went viral to understand that.

Hillsborough was a true tragedy, but it's meaning has been mutated and manipulated for political and social means. Give the families their hollow justice and please let them have their closure. The gates were opened. It was a huge error. It won't bring anyone back.

[Blue Hooped Moose]

Nice post Prisoner.

In terms of moving on and gaining closure do you think Liverpool should continue to not play games on the 15th April?

[3 veesinarow]

I'll answer that at this point. Some eloquent and clear thinking posts in the last few replies, which make a mockery of the intellect of the failed WUMs, all of which I am in agreement with.

I am firmly in the camp that says the police failed everyone that day, but whilst the club shouldn't have an edict forced on them to play on the 15th, they should have the grace and composure themselves to say that they will no longer object to playing on that day. No other club reeling from any other disaster stops playing on their anniversary day - Liverpool should not be any different.

[The Prisoner]

Nice post Prisoner.

In terms of moving on and gaining closure do you think Liverpool should continue to not play games on the 15th April?

I agree with them not playing on that date out of respect for the victims, but sooner or later it was going to cause an innocent team a problem as we saw with Chelsea and their none-too-gracious fans at the weekend.

My argument above was that the hysteria and aura surrounding Hillsborough needs to be addressed by the authorities - the tragic loss of life, regardless of any of the surrounding feelings, dictates that the date is kept free for the right reasons.

[Royal With Cheese]

Nice post Prisoner.

In terms of moving on and gaining closure do you think Liverpool should continue to not play games on the 15th April?

I agree with them not playing on that date out of respect for the victims, but sooner or later it was going to cause an innocent team a problem as we saw with Chelsea and their none-too-gracious fans at the weekend.

My argument above was that the hysteria and aura surrounding Hillsborough needs to be addressed by the authorities - the tragic loss of life, regardless of any of the surrounding feelings, dictates that the date is kept free for the right reasons.

Personally, I think a minutes silence between two teams not involved in the Hillsborough tragedy 23 years after the event was asking for trouble.

Agreed with Liverpool not playing on the 15th.
Agreed with minutes silence at the nearest corresponding Liverpool fixture.
But other than the above I start to get uncomfortable.

[No Fixed Abode]

Can't w8 to see 40,000 Scousers baying for 40,000 Chelsea at the final, incensed by the chanting and booing today

FA were partly to blame for that minute silence debacle yesterday, making it a 6pm kick off.

Nice one.

I did say that a bit in jest, but the main problem was drunken fans turning up late during the minutes silence as it was a 6pm kick off and the fact, the FA refused to move the game from that time. So, really, they are 'partly' to blame.....

I recall this happening at a Swindon v Reading game at the County Ground a fair few years ago. Reading 'lads' turned up late during the minutes silence. Got a bit of bad press for it.