Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

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bobbybottler
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by bobbybottler » 02 Mar 2010 17:02

exileinleeds Just a thought of a question. Surely HMRC will have no problem working out who owns/can appoint an administrator. They only have to trace the payment of stamp duty that surely has been paid on all the share transfers this season?...

I can spot your error straight away.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Ian Royal » 02 Mar 2010 18:34

Uke
Mr Optimist That's an interesting point. Does teh club already have to be mathematically certain of relegation for the points deduction to be carried forward to the next season?

If Pompey are say 8 or points adrfit from safety in two weeks time with 9 games to go and virtually down anyway before the 9 points deduction, surely it is not going to make any real difference to take the points in March and would be more of a punishment for them to start in the CCC -10 in August with a further -10 if they are still in administration by the start of the season?



That would be cruel as Pompey will have some hope of staying up and beating the drop, thus prolonging their pain...


Oh go on then!


Isn't the issue about whether the points deduction is this season or next season decided by the time of year? If it's after a certain date in March, it is deferred to next season (possibly only if a club is already going to be relegated).

The longer this is strung out, the more likely it seems pompey are to start next season with -10 points (because they'll have been relegated so won't be in the prem anymore which pesumably means it reverts to 10.) If they then can't get a CVA (which is unlikely as I understand it) then that's another -10 points and they're all but doomed to league 1.

So The chances of Pompey playing in the top two tiers in two years time look pretty slim. Although obviously the hope is that they just get liquidated. The point is kind of lost if they just sink down the divisions. Too easily forgotten.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Pseud O'Nym » 02 Mar 2010 20:07

Reading through some of Andronikou's comments I see he is proposing selling Fratton to Chainrai for £12m and renting it back, nice idea but...

When Chainrai was announced as being the new owner I'm sure that a Pompey statement said he held the ground as security against a £12m loan to Al Faraj. Then a couple of weeks ago, they announced that he had “taken possession” of the ground – there is a link to this a few pages up this thread – so how is the club in a position to now sell him what he already owns?

I'm rather surprised by how relaxed the administrator is about the case. HMRC are not only challenging his appointment on the grounds of Chainrai's authority, but also that Andronikou may not be independent which, if proved, could surely severely impact his professional future.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by exileinleeds » 02 Mar 2010 20:16

I also sort of got the impression that HMRC object to him because of his behaviour over the administration of Swindon.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Uke » 02 Mar 2010 20:32

As Dirk would say...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010 ... d-7m-march

Portsmouth need £14m just to get to the end of next month and are carrying debts of £86m, it emerged in the high court today as the club faced "serious questions" over the validity of the process by which it was placed into administration.

Her Majesty's Customs and Revenue yesterday made public figures included in the report prepared by the insolvency specialist Vantis at the behest of the high court last month, as it challenged the administrators to prove the validity of the owner Balram Chainrai's mortgage over the club and its assets.

Lawyers told the court that Portsmouth's debts stood at £86m, £8m higher than the figure given by the administrator on Sunday. They valued the squad at £21m, £17m less than the estimate of the chief executive, Peter Storrie, last week.

HMRC called for a full investigation into how Portsmouth's "succession of owners have allowed such enormous debts to accrue". "We say there are serious questions that arise and require full investigation as to what financial dealings there have been between the various different owners of the club and between the club and its owners," said Gregory Mitchell QC, representing HMRC. "At the moment, everything is shrouded in mystery."

HMRC, believed to be owed up to £18m, said it had three main areas of concern: whether the administrators had been validly appointed, whether they would act with "complete independence" and the funding of the club during administration. Mitchell said that there was "a real concern as to whether administration is feasible at all" and it was revealed that the club's assets exceed its liabilities by £65m.

Chainrai, who last month became the fourth owner this season and on Friday placed it into administration, has promised to continue funding the club. But Mitchell outlined concerns that debts to unsecured creditors could rise while Chainrai would recover all his money in full. Chainrai's £17m loan to his predecessor Ali al-Faraj is secured on two mortgages on the club and the ground and HMRC want to see documentary evidence that the money went in. As revealed by the Guardian last month, the Vantis report also outlined plans for the club to sell Fratton Park for £10m and then lease it back for £1.2m a year.

Setting out HMRC's argument, Mitchell also questioned the close links between the administrator, Andrew Andronikou of UHY Hacker Young, and Chainrai's company Portpin Ltd. Both use the same solicitor, Balsara & Co, which recently took over the club's client account from Fuglers. Portsmouth's own banking facilities were withdrawn several months ago.

"We understand that any funds will come from Mr Chainrai and our concern is that there should be a full and independent investigation of the position and the transactions between the club and Mr Chainrai," he said.

Mitchell said although HMRC welcomed the administration if properly funded, there were concerns about where funds to meet the debts will come from. He also called for more information on Portpin Ltd. Chainrai claimed he lent the club £17m as a straightforward business transaction after being approached by Faraj, who had earlier paid £1 to buy the club from Sulaiman al-Fahim when his promised investment failed to emerge.

"They [the administrators] have been appointed by a company, Portpin Ltd, that is registered in the British Virgin Islands and we know very little about Portpin," said Mitchell.

Adjourning the case until the week beginning 15 March, Justice Norris said: "A shadow has been cast over the existing appointment of the administrators and that shadow should be removed as quickly and cheaply as possible."

Portsmouth, bottom of the league, are almost certain to be deducted nine points for going into administration. The matter was due to be on the agenda attoday's Premier League board meeting but discussions were postponed while the implications of yesterday's court proceedings were digested.

Andronikou said he was confident of being able to supply the documentation to satisfy the court in a fortnight's time. "It's a case of exchanging documents. It's a pity it's had to happen in this forum," he said.


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Dirk Gently » 02 Mar 2010 21:35

Pseud O'Nym I'm rather surprised by how relaxed the administrator is about the case. HMRC are not only challenging his appointment on the grounds of Chainrai's authority, but also that Andronikou may not be independent which, if proved, could surely severely impact his professional future.


It turns out he shares the same lawyers as Portsmouth, which must be ringing alarm bells. As I say, HMRC can see Leeds happening all over again.

As an amusing sidenote :
Victor Cattermole's Endeavour Plan consortium ......said it is still interested in buying it (Pompey) but a spokesman for the Hong Kong businessman Chainrai, queried Cattermole's claim that there was no need to put the club into administration. Unfortunately, the proof of funds were from an unrecognised financial institution, and, when we asked for proof of funds from a recognised bank, he was unable to provide it.' "He is represented by a 23 yr old. When we asked for a meeting at his offices, he said that he didn't have an office, but we could meet at his Dad's home".

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by PieEater » 02 Mar 2010 21:41

Lawyers told the court that Portsmouth's debts stood at £86m, £8m higher than the figure given by the administrator on Sunday. They valued the squad at £21m, £17m less than the estimate of the chief executive, Peter Storrie, last week.

HMRC, believed to be owed up to £18m


So last week HMRC were 23% of the debt, now they are 21%. I bet they are hoping somehow to get to 25% by finding £10m hasn't actually changed hands.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by RG30 » 02 Mar 2010 21:46

Farsley Celtic match postponed tonight, rumours around that the club are on the verge of going out of business.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Dirk Gently » 02 Mar 2010 21:53

Ideal What if we beat villa, get drawn to face Poorfsmuff who by then are bankrupt? ;)


We get a bye and don't get to play the semi-final - we go straight to Wembley!


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Ian Royal
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Ian Royal » 02 Mar 2010 22:55

aiming a little low there.

Beat Villa. (Pompey beat Brum)-> Fulham Semi. (Pompey play Cheatski)
Beat Fulham (Pompey beat Cheatski) -> Win the FA Cup without playing a final!


Warning. I would not in anyway want to win the FA Cup that way. TBH, now we're this far I don't want to get a bye from Pompey going bust. I don't want our run to be cheapened.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Dirk Gently » 02 Mar 2010 23:46

Introduction of UEFA licensing scheme delayed by 3 years......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8546561.stm

Europe's top clubs have succeeded in delaying the full introduction of Uefa's new financial fair play rules.

The rules will apply in 2015 instead of 2012 and will govern the amount of debt clubs can accrue, with European bans a possible punishment if they are broken.

The European Club Association agreed clubs must break even over a three-year period, without relying on large cash injections from rich owners.

ECA chairman Karl-Heinz Rummenigge said: "This is a huge achievement."

Rummenigge told reporters at the Soccerex business convention that 93 clubs from 53 countries had attended the ECA's General Assembly in Manchester and were unanimously agreed on the proposals.

"After only two years of existence, the European Club Association has managed, together with Uefa, to set measures that will shape the future of European club football into a more responsible business and ultimately a more sustainable one," continued Rummenigge.

Uefa will assess clubs' finances over a rolling three-year period to ensure they comply with their new financial fair play rules before they are allowed to take part in the Champions League or Europa League.

It means rich owners will have to have an equitable stake in a club rather than loaning it vast sums of money.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Pseud O'Nym » 03 Mar 2010 00:16

Dirk Gently Victor Cattermole's Endeavour Plan consortium ......said it is still interested in buying it (Pompey) but a spokesman for the Hong Kong businessman Chainrai, queried Cattermole's claim that there was no need to put the club into administration. Unfortunately, the proof of funds were from an unrecognised financial institution, and, when we asked for proof of funds from a recognised bank, he was unable to provide it.' "He is represented by a 23 yr old. When we asked for a meeting at his offices, he said that he didn't have an office, but we could meet at his Dad's home".


I trust you're not trying to imply that Cattermole is not to be taken seriously:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/soccer-football/news/article.cfm?c_id=86&objectid=10628994&pnum=0

:lol:

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Uke » 03 Mar 2010 00:31

Pseud O'Nym
Dirk Gently Victor Cattermole's Endeavour Plan consortium ......said it is still interested in buying it (Pompey) but a spokesman for the Hong Kong businessman Chainrai, queried Cattermole's claim that there was no need to put the club into administration. Unfortunately, the proof of funds were from an unrecognised financial institution, and, when we asked for proof of funds from a recognised bank, he was unable to provide it.' "He is represented by a 23 yr old. When we asked for a meeting at his offices, he said that he didn't have an office, but we could meet at his Dad's home".


I trust you're not trying to imply that Cattermole is not to be taken seriously:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/soccer-football/news/article.cfm?c_id=86&objectid=10628994&pnum=0

:lol:



in 1995 he was ordered by the High Court to move out of Erskine College, a former Catholic girls' school in Wellington. He had signed a $1m contract to buy the place but never paid, even though he moved into the priest's flat on the grounds. It took the court order to get him out.


:lol:

Samuel L Bronkowitz's classic film Catholic High School Girls in Trouble springs to mind, with its memorable visual imagery...


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Royal With Cheese » 03 Mar 2010 08:52

Cattermole's history could raise questions under English Premiership rules that owners must be "a fit and proper person".

It lists a raft of rules and offences which are barriers to ownership.

Raise questions?

Sounds like he has the ideal qualifications to run Pompey.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Geekins » 03 Mar 2010 13:20

BBC Sport OTHER GOSSIP
Portsmouth will be offered a staggering £32m rescue deal from the Premier League to pay their tax bill and avoid going bust this season.
Full story: Daily Mirror


^^ This rumour can do one! :evil:

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Stranded » 03 Mar 2010 13:24

Bound to happen as the PL won't want them going bust on their watch - keep them going as they will go down once the points are lopped off and they're the FL's problem.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Pseud O'Nym » 03 Mar 2010 16:26

What would happen to the money if Pompey were liquidated though? This years TV money plus two years parachute payments are due to Pompey after all, albeit not yet. So presumably the PL would have to at least pay the receiver a portion of the money.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Barry the bird boggler » 03 Mar 2010 17:15

BBC Sport OTHER GOSSIP
Portsmouth will be offered a staggering £32m rescue deal from the Premier League to pay their tax bill and avoid going bust this season.
Full story: Daily Mirror


Don't worry everyone just continue with you crazy financial decisions and if it all goes hopelessly wrong for you the PL will bale you out....

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by exileinleeds » 03 Mar 2010 17:53

Pseud O'Nym What would happen to the money if Pompey were liquidated though? This years TV money plus two years parachute payments are due to Pompey after all, albeit not yet. So presumably the PL would have to at least pay the receiver a portion of the money.


This potentially has huge implications as the PL will be well aware.

The court has said they worry there is not enough money (£14m) to keep the club afloat until the end of April. Were the PL to guarantee the money as an advance on next years money, so the court allows them to continue with administration, not be liquidated. Pompey somehow manage to string some wins together- and just avoid relegation...the club relegted in 18th would have a serious claim that would cause even more trouble.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Royal Rother » 03 Mar 2010 18:29

Excellent point. And why it can't be allowed to happen, however much they might like it to.

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