VAR

1859 posts
Sanguine
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26911
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 01 Mar 2018 09:18

Again, the problem is not VAR, but that no-one seems to know how to use it.
I know I'm a broken record here, but the 'power' should sit with the VAR official to ask the referee to look at some footage. Or, the referee should ask the VAR official if he wants to look at a one of a very strict set of events.

Most of the incidents referred last night should not have been.

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26045
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: VAR

by genome » 01 Mar 2018 11:06

Interesting that players are starting to come out with their opinions now.

Tom Cairney tweeting that it needs to "do one", Danny Rose on the radio saying it's a shambles and that some Rochdale players said it ruined the game for them.

Part of me still hates the whole thing, as wrong decisions are part of the emotion of the sport (and many people feel the same), but if it's not going anywhere we need limitations on what can and can't be referred, and if something does get referred then the fans in the stadium need to see the video feed so they're not waiting around.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 01 Mar 2018 11:45

Sanguine Again, the problem is not VAR, but that no-one seems to know how to use it.
I know I'm a broken record here, but the 'power' should sit with the VAR official to ask the referee to look at some footage. Or, the referee should ask the VAR official if he wants to look at a one of a very strict set of events.

Most of the incidents referred last night should not have been.


It's good that this is being tested and piloted (even though I'm obviously against it) but there will have to be a time where those in favour might have to accept that if VAR is consistently misused then it might just be a bit of a fanciful theoretical solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

In the heat of the battle it might be that it's just too complicated, too subjective or just too time consuming to make it work even if it does seem quick and simple to do sat at a desk in Soho Square, Stockley Park or Fleet Street.

Sanguine
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26911
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 01 Mar 2018 11:57

Hoop Blah
Sanguine Again, the problem is not VAR, but that no-one seems to know how to use it.
I know I'm a broken record here, but the 'power' should sit with the VAR official to ask the referee to look at some footage. Or, the referee should ask the VAR official if he wants to look at a one of a very strict set of events.

Most of the incidents referred last night should not have been.


It's good that this is being tested and piloted (even though I'm obviously against it) but there will have to be a time where those in favour might have to accept that if VAR is consistently misused then it might just be a bit of a fanciful theoretical solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

In the heat of the battle it might be that it's just too complicated, too subjective or just too time consuming to make it work even if it does seem quick and simple to do sat at a desk in Soho Square, Stockley Park or Fleet Street.


It's a mindset shift that is required, until football fans are willing to accept a referee's decision as final - and that will come only with better use of the system.

As for being a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, I'd expect any fan resisting VAR to pipe down when in future Reading or England or whoever are subject to an obvious error which, after all, is what VAR (and all technology) is trying to eliminate (for example, Lampard's goal, Henry's handball, Liverpool's 'goal' in the CL semi vs Chelsea), or our ghost goal vs Watford.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 01 Mar 2018 12:07

Sanguine It's a mindset shift that is required, until football fans are willing to accept a referee's decision as final - and that will come only with better use of the system.

As for being a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, I'd expect any fan resisting VAR to pipe down when in future Reading or England or whoever are subject to an obvious error which, after all, is what VAR (and all technology) is trying to eliminate (for example, Lampard's goal, Henry's handball, Liverpool's 'goal' in the CL semi vs Chelsea), or our ghost goal vs Watford.


VAR is a huge threat to the idea of the referees decision being final though. The mindset shift should happen yes, but VAR just undermines it and is pandering to the whole idea of a referee changing his mind.

The game has survived and flourished with the fallibility of referee for 100 odd years. England have been on the wrong end of a couple of major mistakes by the officials, and possibly a few major decisions in our favour too, and it hasn't led to the demise of the game.

As I've said all along, I'd rather preserve the flow of the game than try and correct a few clear and obvious errors along the way. For me it's just too high a price to pay when the game (at the highest level at least) is already under threat from apathy and increasing levels of boredom.


Awayawayaway

Re: VAR

by Awayawayaway » 01 Mar 2018 12:15

Keep it to goal line technology and leave the refs decide the rest.

It's becoming more about the officials than the match. You can't even celebrate a goal properly when VAR is being used because it could get chalked off 30 seconds later.

User avatar
Sebastian the Red
Member
Posts: 904
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 12:08

Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 01 Mar 2018 12:21

Hoop Blah
Sanguine It's a mindset shift that is required, until football fans are willing to accept a referee's decision as final - and that will come only with better use of the system.

As for being a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, I'd expect any fan resisting VAR to pipe down when in future Reading or England or whoever are subject to an obvious error which, after all, is what VAR (and all technology) is trying to eliminate (for example, Lampard's goal, Henry's handball, Liverpool's 'goal' in the CL semi vs Chelsea), or our ghost goal vs Watford.


VAR is a huge threat to the idea of the referees decision being final though. The mindset shift should happen yes, but VAR just undermines it and is pandering to the whole idea of a referee changing his mind.

The game has survived and flourished with the fallibility of referee for 100 odd years. England have been on the wrong end of a couple of major mistakes by the officials, and possibly a few major decisions in our favour too, and it hasn't led to the demise of the game.

As I've said all along, I'd rather preserve the flow of the game than try and correct a few clear and obvious errors along the way. For me it's just too high a price to pay when the game (at the highest level at least) is already under threat from apathy and increasing levels of boredom.


It's not a threat to the referee at all. In rugby union the video ref system is used to bring things to the ref's attention - the ref, on the pitch, still has the final say. The ref's decision absolutely still is final. The difference is that they now have more information, so can make better decisions. What's wrong with a referee changing his mind 30 seconds later, if the new decision is correct? They didn't get a single thing wrong last night. It improves the game, for me, because it improves the integrity of the game.

One of the big problems is communication with the fans who don't know what's going on - but that's mainly because it's adjudged that football fans in the stadium can't be trusted to see live replays of contentious moments. I can't blame the football authorities for that, in truth. I'm very far away from being convinced that football fans could be trusted not to cause mayhem if they don't like what they see on a big screen.

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26045
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: VAR

by genome » 01 Mar 2018 12:27

Sebastian the Red They didn't get a single thing wrong last night.


:lol:

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 01 Mar 2018 12:28

Sebastian the Red It's not a threat to the referee at all. In rugby union the video ref system is used to bring things to the ref's attention - the ref, on the pitch, still has the final say. The ref's decision absolutely still is final.


The issue for me is that it justifies more pressure being put on the ref to double check things. It gives players an excuse to harangue the officials and put more doubt in their mind and it just gets in the way of the gam.

Rugby is, like cricket, a stop start game made up of set piece moments. Yes football has stoppages in play, but it's a lot more fluid as a game and I think the game suffers greatly by adding another reason to slow the game down and disrupt the flow even more than the gamesmanship and tactical timewasting etc has over the last 20/30 years.


User avatar
leon
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 31389
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:18
Location: Hips, Lips, Tits, Power

Re: VAR

by leon » 01 Mar 2018 12:32

genome
leon Who gives a shit?


Quite a few people, m8


I know, it's a bit sad though isn't it?

AthleticoSpizz
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 24958
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 19:49
Location: A Hicks Hoof from Coley Park

Re: VAR

by AthleticoSpizz » 01 Mar 2018 12:34

Yeah, sad that Rochdale went out.

User avatar
Sebastian the Red
Member
Posts: 904
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 12:08

Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 01 Mar 2018 12:40

Hoop Blah
Sebastian the Red It's not a threat to the referee at all. In rugby union the video ref system is used to bring things to the ref's attention - the ref, on the pitch, still has the final say. The ref's decision absolutely still is final.


The issue for me is that it justifies more pressure being put on the ref to double check things. It gives players an excuse to harangue the officials and put more doubt in their mind and it just gets in the way of the gam.

Rugby is, like cricket, a stop start game made up of set piece moments. Yes football has stoppages in play, but it's a lot more fluid as a game and I think the game suffers greatly by adding another reason to slow the game down and disrupt the flow even more than the gamesmanship and tactical timewasting etc has over the last 20/30 years.


Again, that’s a problem with the culture of the game though. If footballers can’t be trusted not to harass the refs, then the refs needs to be stronger. The problem is that footballers are a bunch of uneducated chavs, and they don’t have any respect for anything other than their own pay packets. If a ref actually officiated player behaviour in line with the laws of the game then they’d have to abandon every match due to insufficient players after all the red cards for relentless abuse and lack of respect - and the ref would get the blame.

In rugby the players call the ref sir and do as they’re told - one of many reasons why it’s a far, far superior game.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 01 Mar 2018 12:57

Sebastian the Red Again, that’s a problem with the culture of the game though. If footballers can’t be trusted not to harass the refs, then the refs needs to be stronger. The problem is that footballers are a bunch of uneducated chavs, and they don’t have any respect for anything other than their own pay packets. If a ref actually officiated player behaviour in line with the laws of the game then they’d have to abandon every match due to insufficient players after all the red cards for relentless abuse and lack of respect - and the ref would get the blame.

In rugby the players call the ref sir and do as they’re told - one of many reasons why it’s a far, far superior game.


It is a problem with the culture of the game yes, and VAR isn't going to help with it, it's more likely to make it worse, IMO. That behaviour and culture is a blight on the game but unfortunately it's probably as much a reflection on society as it is just the sport itself (although football, the money involved and the attention on it certainly magnifies it).

You can't ignore the reality of the culture when implementing VAR though. It operates within the real world, not some utopian sporting existence where everyone plays by the rules and respects each other and the officials.


User avatar
Sebastian the Red
Member
Posts: 904
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 12:08

Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 01 Mar 2018 13:28

Hoop Blah
Sebastian the Red Again, that’s a problem with the culture of the game though. If footballers can’t be trusted not to harass the refs, then the refs needs to be stronger. The problem is that footballers are a bunch of uneducated chavs, and they don’t have any respect for anything other than their own pay packets. If a ref actually officiated player behaviour in line with the laws of the game then they’d have to abandon every match due to insufficient players after all the red cards for relentless abuse and lack of respect - and the ref would get the blame.

In rugby the players call the ref sir and do as they’re told - one of many reasons why it’s a far, far superior game.


It is a problem with the culture of the game yes, and VAR isn't going to help with it, it's more likely to make it worse, IMO. That behaviour and culture is a blight on the game but unfortunately it's probably as much a reflection on society as it is just the sport itself (although football, the money involved and the attention on it certainly magnifies it).

You can't ignore the reality of the culture when implementing VAR though. It operates within the real world, not some utopian sporting existence where everyone plays by the rules and respects each other and the officials.


We shouldn't ignore improvements because footballers are thick - start sending them off, ruining their careers, whatever. Teach them what it is to climb out of the gutter, for once in their lives

Sanguine
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26911
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 01 Mar 2018 13:59

Perhaps unsurprisingly I agree with Seb. My point earlier about the referee's decision being final was with rugby in mind. VAR is part of the refereeing team, like TMO is in rugby. Where the officials aren't sure, they check and get it right.

As I said, mindset needs to change, and I tend to lean towards that you make it change, even if that meets resistance along the way. And in the case of the attitude of players towards officials, you'd cure that problem along the way too.

Wasn't there a FIFA directive a few years back that players could be booked if they chased down the ref to berate him after a decision? I assume that's been quietly dropped, as it seems well and truly back the last couple of years.

I also don't think VAR, if used properly, is as subjective as you suggest, HB. We are (even the knuckle-draggers) sensible-headed enough to know when a foul is definitely a foul, and when a dive is definitely a dive. That is where VAR should be used, and if it is, there can't really be much argument about the outcome.

Victor Meldrew
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6716
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 19:22
Location: South Coast

Re: VAR

by Victor Meldrew » 01 Mar 2018 14:11

I thought it was all quite funny last night in that it seemed as though the ref, for once,was doing his utmost to help the underdog.
The commentary team, including the idiot Savage,demonstrated that not only do they not know the rules or laws of the game but also the extent to which VAR should or can be used.

Having the studio ref around was handy because I for one didn't know the full extent of the change (from the time of John Aldridge etc.) in how dummying for a penalty kick is now acceptable and not acceptable.

One suggestion-as all the grounds where VAR has been used do have screens why not, for the info of the fans, say why a review is taking place which would get over the mystery and treat the fans as being inclusive.
There can surely be no more than a few reasons for referral.

I'm not sure whether VAR is a good or bad thing but the professional football community is made up of dinosaurs who never want change.
Remember all the fuss about the back pass rule?
Now that change has been shown to be a good thing and is unquestioned.
All we need now is a rule that says that you can't pass the ball around at the back in your own half for more than 30 seconds. :wink:

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26045
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: VAR

by genome » 01 Mar 2018 14:24

Not sure about citing TMO here considering it got a decision wrong in the England v Wales match.

User avatar
Sebastian the Red
Member
Posts: 904
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 12:08

Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 01 Mar 2018 14:35

genome Not sure about citing TMO here considering it got a decision wrong in the England v Wales match.


Oh woe is us, one mistake!

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26045
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: VAR

by genome » 01 Mar 2018 14:54

NZ vs Lions had a wrong decision as well. NZ vs Wales in 2016. Scotland vs Australia in the RWC 2015. It's not the perfect system you think it is.

The constant comparison with Rugby is flawed anyway. Completely different sport, much more black-and-white and less open to interpretation of the rules. The flow of the game is also completely different.

Football's just not suited to it.

User avatar
Sebastian the Red
Member
Posts: 904
Joined: 20 Mar 2007 12:08

Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 01 Mar 2018 15:02

genome NZ vs Lions had a wrong decision as well. NZ vs Wales in 2016. Scotland vs Australia in the RWC 2015. It's not the perfect system you think it is.

The constant comparison with Rugby is flawed anyway. Completely different sport, much more black-and-white and less open to interpretation of the rules. The flow of the game is also completely different.

Football's just not suited to it.


1. No one ever said it was perfect. It's just much, much better than the alternative.

2. If you think that rugby is "more black-and-white and less open to interpretation" then I'm afraid there's no speaking to you. The reffing at the breakdown, at scrums, etc, is every bit as open to the individual preferences of referees as any football match.

3. I agree that football, in its current form, is probably not suited to it - but not because of the sport itself, but because of the relentlessly shit fans and the lower class dross that play the sport, with absolutely no respect for authority. VaR, for me, is one of the ways of stamping that out, and gentrifying the game, culling the fanbase of undesirable elements, and improving the behaviour of players on the pitch. VaR, alongside retrospective bans, should be used a hell of a lot more.

1859 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests

It is currently 16 Feb 2025 16:25